- Time of past OR future Camino
- Too many and too often!
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Yes and a nightmarish first day for some pilgrims...It sounds like a hospi nightmare.
It's a real pity they do not leave more beds in the renovated albergue for walk-ins. My opinion, of course, and I know not everyone will agree. But it forces everyone to play the book ahead game even if you don't want to. This is how the Camino culture changes, and not necessarily from the bottom up.
A message has just been posted on the Facebook account of the albergue in Roncesvalles. It seems the combination of pilgrim numbers beyond their capacity and poor weather has made this a difficult day.
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My personal take of course, but do not see any problem or difficulty here--the Albergue staff is doing all they can to help and assist; life is never always smooth and always problem free and will never be; expectations ought to be kept reasonable; unpredictability is part of life. Help yourself and others and what be, will be. Fortunately, things in a rather difficult and challenging way always change.A message has just been posted on the Facebook account of the albergue in Roncesvalles. It seems the combination of pilgrim numbers beyond their capacity and poor weather has made this a difficult day.
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May 1st is a holiday in Spain and in France, so many Spanish and French people take a long weekend off and walk a few days. Furthermore: the first three weeks of May (and the first three weeks of September!) are always very, very busy.Is 1 May the most popular day to start from Saint-Jean?
I agree that it would be nice to leave some beds for walk-ins.It's a real pity they do not leave more beds in the renovated albergue for walk-ins. My opinion, of course, and I know not everyone will agree.
Here’s the part I don’t get though. I understand why some pilgrims don’t want to book accommodation in advance in a general sense (play it by ear, see how far you want to walk as the day unfolds etc).But it forces everyone to play the book ahead game even if you don't want to.
I agree. Most of my Camino walking is done in winter and on quiet routes so booking is rarely necessary. But walking the Frances with a friend in September last year we found the pressure of numbers quite daunting and so we booked for SJPDP, Roncesvalles and Larrasoaña in advance then played it by ear after that.Playing the booking game once won’t change the spontaneous general nature of your whole camino or turn you into a different person. But it guarantees you a bed and most likely will relieve some stress.
But Roncesvalles is a bit of a unique situation because there aren’t many alternative options to the albergue. So if you plan to stay at the albergue but don’t book it just because you don’t want to book, and then get turned away because you didn’t book, well, I think the smarter thing to do in this one instance is just to book. Playing the booking game once won’t change the spontaneous general nature of your whole camino or turn you into a different person. But it guarantees you a bed and most likely will relieve some stress.
Just my opinion, naturally
Exactly, and especially for first time pilgrims who start in SJPP, for whatever reason. Experienced pilgrims on their second, third or more Camino can walk on when there is no bed or even plan to skip Roncesvalles from the start. For many first time pilgrims it is different: They will want to stay in Roncesvalles at then end of their first day because it is a special place that is important and meaningful to them and/or because they can't go one step further after a long and exhausting day. For them, it is not a question of "I want to feel free to stop where I feel like it" or "I'll walk another 5 km when I cannot find a bed". I don't understand why there would be a discussion about the book/not book topic in the special case of Roncesvalles.Roncesvalles is a bit of a unique situation
I agree. There's always some who decry those who only walk the Camino as a "cheap holiday," but I think that people who really want a cheap holiday will camp on a beach somewhere, not do something as arduous as walking 20 - 30 km per day. To take on such an undertaking requires more determination and intention than choosing a relaxing holiday destination.would never call walking the Camino a holiday--it's more like real life.
Ah. Good to know! Thank you. And for all you do under sometimes difficult circumstances.These beds (32+30) are not bookable.
True, enough.Playing the booking game once won’t change the spontaneous general nature of your whole camino or turn you into a different person. But it guarantees you a bed and most likely will relieve some stress.
Actually for we who are repeat offenders too. Roncesvalles is a uniquely special place. I'd hate to pass it were I walking that route.Exactly, and especially for first time pilgrims who start in SJPP, for whatever reason.
It’s always unfair to single out any group because of a few bad apples. Seems a bitPerhaps it is unfair to single out one nationality but everyone who asked me if they could queue jump had a US accent. My thoughts at the time were that Europeans and Antipodeans were used to queues whereas people from the US were not.
No. Not that. But stereotyping, perhaps.Seems a bit racist to me
You’re right, not racist. Thank you for the word that escaped me. Stereotyping. I’m not offended either but rather tired of Americans getting dragged through the mud because of a few classless individuals. Can the finger pointing stop? I’ve witnessed bad behavior from other non-Americans but I can manage to go about my business without smearing a nationality as a whole. Just today I’ve read two posts in two different threads here, on the forum that have bashed America. There are bad people in every nation under the sun.No. Not that. But stereotyping, perhaps.
As an American, I'm not offended though. I've lived overseas for a lot of years and it's my perception that Americans are more likely to feel entitled to cut in line than many other nationalities. Just my common experience.
The answer to your question is in my post. Making a point, there is no need to stereotype anywhere, especially on this forum.Erm … why are you discussing an observation that somebody made 5 years ago when waiting in line at the albergue in Roncesvalles? And in particular since these people, no matter what their accent was when speaking in English, apparently politely asked whether they could move ahead in the line and did not push through the crowd?
I don't know about that. There were some comments about naked Germans not long ago!I haven’t read anything negative about Germans or the Irish, Aussies or Canadians, not even Koreans, or the local Spanards. But Americans are fair game?? NO!! It needs to stop.
Perhaps but I’m sure it didn’t say anything about all Germans not knowing how to wear clothing while in public. The post I was replying to referred that Americans don’t know how to queue, not used to doing so. This based on their accents, not even fact.I don't know about that. There were some comments about naked Germans not long ago!
I am sure that you are correct.It’s always unfair to single out any group because of a few bad apples. Seems a bitracistlike stereotyping to me. We Americans are very familiar with queues perhaps just like every other nation under the sun. Standing in line (queue) is a daily pastime in America. Here’s a quick Google search. It refers to humans, as in all peoples. “Human beings spend approximately 6 months (could be more) of their lives waiting in line for things, it means like 3 days a year of queueing up.”
I understand your frustration as I too would have not allowed any queue jumpers regardless of their nationality.
No need to apologize, fun story. Honestly though, back in 1982 the only kiwi I knew of was the fruit in the grocery store, so yes we stand in lines, not queues. And technically, the naughty pilgrims cut the line, they didn’t jump it.I am sure that you are correct.
However in 1982 I went to the Daytona speedway to watch the Daytona 200 motorcycle races. In a stroke of luck, Graeme Crosby (a Kiwi) won that year, riding a Yamaha. His team was managed by Giacomo Agostini who is/was my childhood hero and I got to meet Giacomo because I had a pit pass and I stalked him down.
Anyway, back to the subject, I purchased the pit pass over the phone (no Internet back then) and when I got to the raceway I had to find the place where I would pick it up from.
After asking a few people I found a queue of people outside the door that I thought was the correct one. I stood in line at the end of the queue but it didn't seem to be moving very fast and so I asked the guy in front of me "Is this the queue for pit passes?".
The guy looked at me as if I was from the Moon or something.
Of course, it could also have been my accent but I really, really got the idea that he had no idea what "queue" meant.
Eventually I said "Is this the line for pit passes" and got a "yes" out of him.
Of course, of course, it is really silly of me to generalise based on a single example.
I apologise.
The last time I was there, to do first aid, it was packed, with some of the Dutch hospitelaros outside organising taxis to take distraught pilgrims down route to other places, including hotels.
I went inside and out the other side to see a coach appear with clean and energetic 'first day' tour group pilgrims arrive and then a minibus and van disgorged a party of cycling pilgrims, also fresh and 'first day'.
Later I asked the hospitelaros about this - they were unhappy, and told me that the diocese reserve a large number of places for these groups, almost like a hotel, which left them too few beds for those weary pilgrims who had just walked over the mountain.
It may have changed since then, but I doubt it.
Yes, much to our regret it is like that. 183 of the 245 beds can be pre-booked, and in busy times (like these first weeks of May) they are all booked, every day. That is why I always recommend to make a reservation.The last time I was there, to do first aid, it was packed, with some of the Dutch hospitelaros outside organising taxis to take distraught pilgrims down route to other places, including hotels.
I went inside and out the other side to see a coach appear with clean and energetic 'first day' tour group pilgrims arrive and then a minibus and van disgorged a party of cycling pilgrims, also fresh and 'first day'.
Later I asked the hospitelaros about this - they were unhappy, and told me that the diocese reserve a large number of places for these groups, almost like a hotel, which left them too few beds for those weary pilgrims who had just walked over the mountain.
It may have changed since then, but I doubt it.
Paying more attention to public holidays and planning travel dates to avoid them would prevent quite a lot of this hopefully short-lived issue. The May holiday is a permanent fixture and large numbers associated with it are nothing new and quite predictable. I remember seeing a post online earlier this year from someone puzzled why accommodation and transport should be in short supply on the weekend of 31 March. It seems that the concept of Easter simply hadn't occurred to them or they did not think it would be relevant to a pilgrimage journey.But ... it is what it is ... if hundreds and hundreds of pilgrims arrrive without realising they walk in the busiest time of the year, we simply cannot provide everybody with a bed when there isn't.
But Roncesvalles is not in Galicia and not subject to Galician pilgrim albergue rules, or is it?know the galicia albergues don't permit reservations but technically have a pecking order.. i believe it goes disabled, walker, horseback, cyclist, with vehicle assistance, and finally first day.
Reservation systems can't capture the nuances.
Also ppl can lie and many hospitaleros won't argue.
I was thinking that Roncesvalles albergue was run by a dutch pilgrim association...nor a foreign based pilgrim association.
I will leave it to @Ianinam to explain who sets the policy. As I understand it, the policy and organisational responsibilities are different than for example in the case of the Paderborn albergue in Pamplona or the Gaucelmo albergue in Rabanal. At Roncesvalles, they do accept people who arrive on buses. Who don't have to hide it and who don't have to lie about it.I was thinking that Roncesvalles albergue was run by a dutch pilgrim association...
I was thinking that Roncesvalles albergue was run by a dutch pilgrim association...
I was thinking that Roncesvalles albergue was run by a dutch pilgrim association...
But Roncesvalles is not in Galicia and not subject to Galician pilgrim albergue rules, or is it?
An example of lack of planning. This post appeared on Facebook this evening. Someone who arrived in Santiago on a Saturday in the week of a major public holiday. Surprised to find that they cannot simply jump on a bus or train on a Sunday in a holiday week without reservations and be in Barcelona - 1000km away on the far side of Spain - tomorrow. And rather optimistically posting late in the day on an English-language group in the hope that a member might be driving there tomorrow and offer them a lift. I'm all for keeping travel plans flexible but there are practical limits...Paying more attention to public holidays and planning travel dates to avoid them would prevent quite a lot of this hopefully short-lived issue.
Sheesh. Ignorance is not bliss in this context.I'm all for keeping travel plans flexible but there are practical limits.
I will admit that in 2016, with my son, we arrived in Roncesvalles by bus and stayed there. We were coming from Pamplona and starting from Roncesvalles. I don't think they were turning people away that day in July, though. I also started from Roncesvalles in 1989, but didn't stay there, just picked up my credencial and started off right away.I will leave it to @Ianinam to explain who sets the policy. As I understand it, the policy and organisational responsibilities are different than for example in the case of the Paderborn albergue in Pamplona or the Gaucelmo albergue in Rabanal. At Roncesvalles, they do accept people who arrive on buses. Who don't have to hide it and who don't have to lie about it.
I started from SJPDP in August 1990 and picked up a credencial in Roncesvalles too. I spent the night there. At the pilgrim mass that night there were 7 priests and a server in the sanctuary and a congregation of 8 - with 3 pilgrims including myself receiving a blessing. There may have been a few more pilgrims about the place as I seem to remember there being 9 in the dormitory that night - the largest number of pilgrims I saw in one place for the whole journey.I also started from Roncesvalles in 1989, but didn't stay there, just picked up my credencial and started off right away.
It was a bottleneck, even then.There may have been a few more pilgrims about the place as I seem to remember there being 9 in the dormitory that night - the largest number of pilgrims I saw in one place for the whole journey.
That was my experience two years ago. We stood out the cold for the longest time waiting.On the topic of long queues to get into the Albergue at Roncesvalles: this is my observation: I was there a few years ago, cold and tired and with a reservation. The problem was that only ONE official was processing people. This accounted for the slow-moving queue. The volunteers could do nothing but sympathise with us.
On the topic of long queues to get into the Albergue at Roncesvalles: this is my observation: I was there a few years ago, cold and tired and with a reservation. The problem was that only ONE official was processing people. This accounted for the slow-moving queue. The volunteers could do nothing but sympathise with us.
I have been booking myself in several apartments where they use some app which allows me to scan my own passport in. Maybe they should look into something like that- it may make things go a little quicker? They don’t give me the key or the door code until they get the passport scan and a selfie.This has changed since May last year. Before that date, we only had one scanner for the passports/ID-cards, so only one pilgrim at a time could be checked-in and this takes a lot of time. Last year a second scanner was installed, so in busy times we now have two check-in desks.
Scanning the passports/ID-cards is mandatory for the Guardia Civil.
And older people from Italy often still have an old fashioned paper ID, which cannot be scanned; then we have to enter the date of their ID in ther computer by hand. If you have a group of 12 Italian people you can imagine how much time this takes!
Of course staff should be treated with respect at all times, whether paid or volunteers, but surely pilgrims are paying guests, assuming they have a reservation, and therefore customers? What are they then? Sorry if I am missing something?Pilgrims need to remember they are not customers. Nobody owes them anything, including a trouble-free breezy check-in, or even a bed. The people working at Roncesvalles are volunteers, and should be treated with respect and kindness, no matter who else is in line.
I agree with this - if the Albergue is operating on some kind of not-for-profit basis. You are a guest.Pilgrims need to remember they are not customers.
I agree, but I do not believe that that is the case here. As I understand it Roncesvalles does not aim to maximize profit, simply to ensure that they meet their costs whilst providing a much needed service to Pilgrims. If profit was the key motivation they would hardly be attracting volunteers to staff it.But anywhere that is operating on a pre-booking basis to maximise profit is automatically providing a service where the person booking is a customer.
I'm not sure why Roncesvalles changed their policy to allow bookings, let alone such a high percentage but I'm certain that they had very good reasons for doing so.
There has been a very marked change in approach in recent years. People have become far more risk-averse and unwilling to walk without reservations - often months in advance and for every night of their walk. And so often we read that the places which do not accept reservations have spare beds while many are still anxious about no availability on booking websites. We regularly see panicky posts from people unable to find timetables online or make bookings months in advance even for local trains and bus services between Santiago and Sarria. It seems that having larger amounts of information and services available online is a two-edged sword: it provides people the opportunity to make their travel arrangements independently but it also seems to foster anxiety and the desire to micro-manage every aspect of their journey in advance. Perhaps those running the Roncesvalles albergue have calculated that if they do not accept reservations and only offer beds on a first come, first served basis then the worried and inexperienced will simply book elsewhere or decide not to walk at all?I'm not sure why Roncesvalles changed their policy to allow bookings, let alone such a high percentage but I'm certain that they had very good reasons for doing so.
Maybe there is a degree of that, but the impression I've got from the some of the above responses is that a large percentage of people booking are not those that are walking from SJPdP, but people and groups who are arriving by bus etc to start at Roncesvalles.Perhaps those running the Roncesvalles albergue have calculated that if they do not accept reservations and only offer beds on a first come, first served basis then the worried and inexperienced will simply book elsewhere or decide not to walk at all?
I'm not suggesting they be banned if they don't walk from SJPdP, only that the current system for bed booking/allocation leaves little room for those who actually need the accommodation most.It probably would never occur to most Spanish pilgrims to travel to SJPDP just to turn around and walk back over the hills into Spain. I don't think it is unreasonable that Roncesvalles should accommodate people who arrive there by vehicle to begin a walking pilgrimage the following morning.
This would not seem to be the case given it seems a large number of the bookings are not people walking from SJPdP.though these days the numbers who do actually begin their walk there are fairly small
And yes, groups often prebook and sometimes they arrive with a minibus or they come with the regular bus from Pamplona.
And yes, we hospitaleros are very sad, every day, to have to send away the tired, exhausted, undercooled and wet pilgrims who actually walked over the mountain.
They only "need" it so much because they insist on starting from SJPP to fufill an artificial criteria. Since accommodation is so limited, it makes sense to have it reserved, and if you don't get it, start further down the line where availability is better.those who actually need the accommodation most
If albergues should only offer beds to those who have walked some significant distance to get there then no-one would be able to spend the night in one before beginning their pilgrimage. Should the albergues in SJPDP refuse people who did not walk there from Ostabat or Bayonne? Or the Sarria ones insist that people start in Triacastela? How far back down the line would that logic lead? All the main starting points are essentially arbitrary.They only "need" it so much because they insist on starting from SJPP to fufill an artificial criteria. Since accommodation is so limited, it makes sense to have it reserved, and if you don't get it, start further down the line where availability is better.
If albergues should only offer beds to those who have walked some significant distance to get there then no-one would be able to spend the night in one before beginning their pilgrimage
Maybe they changed their policy so that people who are not as fit, and not capable of racing across the Pyrenees, could still stay there in the busy season and could walk at their own pace.I'm not sure why Roncesvalles changed their policy to allow bookings, let alone such a high percentage but I'm certain that they had very good reasons for doing so.
An excellent point.Maybe they changed their policy so that people who are not as fit, and not capable of racing across the Pyrenees, could still stay there in the busy season and could walk at their own pace
Right you are! I’ve slept on it and decided to come into the Norte at llanes - when the primitivo then comes up on the left I’ll either take that or continue Norte based on how I’m feeling and other pilgrims. At least gives me a choiceThe World went upside down!
In 3-days everyone will abandon CF and commence CN....
PS!
and then the reverse happens but probably good for thos who is coming up behind on CF
What if you didn’t take any pictures?They will even ask you to show the pictures you took on the way to Deba to prove you haven't arrived from your previous albergue by train, bus or a taxi, but walked there.
Isn’t the original spirit to provide shelter for pilgrims? Is that now invalidated because they allow reservations? I wouldn’t have thought so, personally.It just doesn't seem in the spirit of what I can only assume Roncesvalles was originally there for.
My understanding is that they do this because the Albergue is very near the train station. They apparently have had a significant issue with a large number of people arriving by train and claiming shelter, including tourists who actually are not walking at all but have a credential.What if you didn’t take any pictures?
(Because it was raining / you don’t have a camera/smartphone / you are not a picture-taking type / you didn’t see anything that merited a photo etc)
Maybe they should smell you up and down instead?
You are off course correct. My original post was in response to the volunteer working there who said how upsetting it is that they have to turn away cold and tired pilgrims who have walked over the Pyrenees due to lack of beds, with a large majority booked up by tour groups arriving by bus to start from there.Isn’t the original spirit to provide shelter for pilgrims? Is that now invalidated because they allow reservations? I wouldn’t have thought so, personally.
Might be too late for this, but I would start a stage or two before llanes. The section between La Franca and Llanes was some of my favorite, for sheer beauty, on the Norte. Note, this was on the alternate route that runs closer to the the coast than the official Camino route. I would encourage you to use the mapy.cz app for the Norte as it has alternate routes which was much more enjoyable than the official route.Right you are! I’ve slept on it and decided to come into the Norte at llanes - when the primitivo then comes up on the left I’ll either take that or continue Norte based on how I’m feeling and other pilgrims. At least gives me a choiceigj
Also, you could walk to Oviedo and then decide there to continue on the Primitivo or walk back to the Norte (avoiding the Gijon - Aves) section. This will add a day but I found it worthwhile.Right you are! I’ve slept on it and decided to come into the Norte at llanes - when the primitivo then comes up on the left I’ll either take that or continue Norte based on how I’m feeling and other pilgrims. At least gives me a choice
My understanding is that they do this because the Albergue is very near the train station. They apparently have had a significant issue with a large number of people arriving by train and claiming shelter, including tourists who actually are not walking at all but have a credential.
What if you didn’t take any pictures
Maybe they should smell you up and down instead?
Thanks for the tip by the way - ended up doing this. Norte is super quiet, all albergues half full, very nice crowd!Might be too late for this, but I would start a stage or two before llanes. The section between La Franca and Llanes was some of my favorite, for sheer beauty, on the Norte. Note, this was on the alternate route that runs closer to the the coast than the official Camino route. I would encourage you to use the mapy.cz app for the Norte as it has alternate routes which was much more enjoyable than the official route.
25% of people?If 25% of people staying at Roncesvalles (as suggested above) (as suggested above), then it seems likely that they have NOT walked over the mountain, but arrived by some kind of transport.
Just been looking at the statistics posted this morning. The number of Koreans who choose to walk the Frances in winter continues to surprise me - must have been at least 1/3 of the pilgrims I met in January 2023. I was also surprised at the number of Spanish pilgrims recorded. Perhaps they are coming to share in the belief that SJPDP is somehow special and the "real" start of the Camino Frances?For what it is worth, the Bureau d'Accueil in SJPP published their pilgrim number for Jan-April 2024 by nationality. It is available on their Facebook page.
I guess that it is much simpler: Many peregrin@s these days will start where their Camino guidebook or their Camino app for the Camino Francés starts. And the idea of "walking over the Pyrenees" may also be attractive to those who live on the south side of this mountain range as it is for those who live far away to the east or west around the globe, i.e. neither north or south of the Pyrenees.I was also surprised at the number of Spanish pilgrims recorded. Perhaps they are coming to share in the belief that SJPDP is somehow special and the "real" start of the Camino Frances?
There is a preview of a few pages available on his publisher's website. Including a contents page. Pombo does start his coverage of the Navarra route from SJPDP. Interestingly he follows the example of the 1980s Valiña guidebook and describes the Aragones route first.The Gronze.com website start in SJPP; so does the Spanish Buen Camino app; and I guess so do other Spanish guidebooks like those by A. Pombo - I'd be curious to know, I can't see, the blurb only says that C. Navarro and C. Aragones are included.
I think that the answer is in your previous sentence.Why are there not more beds to be had in Roncesvalles?
They probably don't see the need to go to that expense for a relatively few days of the year. It might be something that they will need to revisit if numbers from SJPdP continue to rise.The issue are a few days or weeks per year when demand outstrips supply but there are taxis and buses to meet the demand for beds for the night
He does that because the Aragonese pilgrim route predates the St. Jean/Roncesvalles one. The pilgrim shelter/monastery in Roncesvalles was founded by monks from the monastery at Santa Cristina de Somport, the Camino pilgrim center cited by Codex Calixtinus as equal to Rome or Jerusalem. Back in the day, Everybody walked over the pass at Somport and hung a right at Jaca -- what we call the Camino Aragonese. The ruins of Sta Cristina are still up there, a sad remnant of their former glory.There is a preview of a few pages available on his publisher's website. Including a contents page. Pombo does start his coverage of the Navarra route from SJPDP. Interestingly he follows the example of the 1980s Valiña guidebook and describes the Aragones route first.
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