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- Time of past OR future Camino
- 28.04.23 - 06.06.23
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Sound great.https://www.europapress.es/galicia/...tadas-conductas-incivicas-20230626184510.html
Translation:
The municipal government of Santiago gave an order to the Local Police to reinforce surveillance during the coming months, at least until October, in those areas with the most tourist influx. This was announced this Monday by the mayoress, Goretti Sanmartín, in statements to the media after the appearance of new chalk graffiti in the historic center and the detection of uncivil behavior by some visitors, such as a picnic in Praza do Obradoiro that in recent days transcended on social networks.
"We have just given instructions for the Local Police to make a very clear reinforcement in the coming months", confirmed the councilor, to then ask tourists and pilgrims to "comply" with "those issues that are of a minimum knowledge".
Although Sanmartín understands that it is "an occasional issue" and hopes that "it will not be repeated", she has called for all people who visit Santiago to bring "original knowledge" about the historical character of the city. Precisely, about the graffiti, the City Council has already informed the competent administration in matters of Heritage.
Tourists, the mayoress has stressed, "have to guarantee not only the care of their heritage, but also issues such as the right to rest of the neighbors."
What do you think about it?
In the middle ages, the Archbishop had a prison for pilgrims, so perhaps the new Archbishop might be persuaded to open one up in a disused convent. Hooligans could be sentenced to a week of learning Gregorian chant.
All well and good until all 2000 or so pilgrims arriving each day decide to picnic on the plaza.Though, back to Santiago ... a picnic in the Cathedral square? Oh dear, I could/would do that, seems ok to me, as long as nothing is left behind when leaving ... actually, seems more than ok to me ... seems like a lovely thing to do.
I think this is the crux of the problem. When in Rome right? Behave in accordance with cultural norms. Don't just come, consume & leave again.The sometimes crude and disrespectful behavior seen today on the Camino (and other "tourist areas") is not surprising. Graffiti is not new and has been a part of the Camino Frances...at least back to 2009 when we walked our first camino. It has now taken on a much more prolific and crude aspect. Respect and behavior in albergues is often reported as they are seen by some as a cheap party accommodation.
The respect and sense of history and culture is disappearing from the Camino as the commercialization and
touristification slowly takes over.
...Touristification is a process by which a place changes as it becomes an object of tourist consumption. It leads to negative implications for the touristified place and has received both informal and formal opposition...
Your translation says "tourists" three times, "visitors" once, and "pilgrims" once. So I think your title gives a misleading impression that pilgrims are the offenders. Though I've certainly seen evidence that some pilgrims—and some tourists and some locals—are barbarians.
This is unavoidable with increased tourism. But very good that the authorities are getting ahead of it before it starts.https://www.europapress.es/galicia/...tadas-conductas-incivicas-20230626184510.html
Translation:
The municipal government of Santiago gave an order to the Local Police to reinforce surveillance during the coming months, at least until October, in those areas with the most tourist influx. This was announced this Monday by the mayoress, Goretti Sanmartín, in statements to the media after the appearance of new chalk graffiti in the historic center and the detection of uncivil behavior by some visitors, such as a picnic in Praza do Obradoiro that in recent days transcended on social networks.
"We have just given instructions for the Local Police to make a very clear reinforcement in the coming months", confirmed the councilor, to then ask tourists and pilgrims to "comply" with "those issues that are of a minimum knowledge".
Although Sanmartín understands that it is "an occasional issue" and hopes that "it will not be repeated", she has called for all people who visit Santiago to bring "original knowledge" about the historical character of the city. Precisely, about the graffiti, the City Council has already informed the competent administration in matters of Heritage.
Tourists, the mayoress has stressed, "have to guarantee not only the care of their heritage, but also issues such as the right to rest of the neighbors."
What do you think about it?
I know there is the "Ugly American" stereotype that, sadly, has been well-earned by many. However, "Graffitti Ivan" and his girl are NOT American. Please don't give us more blame than is due! (Sorry, but maybe I am a little sensitive...)It is difficult with influxes of tourists; on our news today is a video of a young American couple doing "Ivan and Hayley" graffiti on the Coliseum in Rome! and sure, graffiti is as old as Rome - but, really?
and here in Bath (England) we have countless tourists, though all seem rather civilised and happy and the council provide lots of litter bins and so on, but as with all tourist towns we also have many beggars as tourism and beggars go together somehow - the reverse of the coin?
Though, back to Santiago ... a picnic in the Cathedral square? Oh dear, I could/would do that, seems ok to me, as long as nothing is left behind when leaving ... actually, seems more than ok to me ... seems like a lovely thing to do.
Religious centres have always had lots of people visiting and doing what visitors do - I can see why pilgrims might want to chalk messages to their friends who hadn't arrived yet, where they were staying for instance, but I don't like graffiti .. so maybe a notice board somewhere for that task? Rather than criminalise something, incorporate it in a positive way?
Apparently the man is a Bulgarian national resident in the UK.However, "Graffitti Ivan" and his girl are NOT American.
I certainly would not want my name carved into a place of mass death such as was the history of the Coliseum in Rome! I have gone there and said a prayer for the people who perished there.It is difficult with influxes of tourists; on our news today is a video of a young American couple doing "Ivan and Hayley" graffiti on the Coliseum in Rome! and sure, graffiti is as old as Rome - but, really?
and here in Bath (England) we have countless tourists, though all seem rather civilised and happy and the council provide lots of litter bins and so on, but as with all tourist towns we also have many beggars as tourism and beggars go together somehow - the reverse of the coin?
Though, back to Santiago ... a picnic in the Cathedral square? Oh dear, I could/would do that, seems ok to me, as long as nothing is left behind when leaving ... actually, seems more than ok to me ... seems like a lovely thing to do.
Religious centres have always had lots of people visiting and doing what visitors do - I can see why pilgrims might want to chalk messages to their friends who hadn't arrived yet, where they were staying for instance, but I don't like graffiti .. so maybe a notice board somewhere for that task? Rather than criminalise something, incorporate it in a positive way?
Apparently the man is a Bulgarian national resident in the UK.
The problem is if they decided to enforce this, they would kiss there tourist trade good bye, which I'm sure would completely screw the country up.I would think the vast majority of pilgrims breach the rules of Spain. As we know many, if not most like to do the Camino on the cheap but
"Currently, the minimum amount of money that you need to prove you have is €100 per person per day (£85), with a minimum of €900 (or its equivalent in foreign money) effective from January 1, 2022."
Average full Camino around 35 days? We all have enough money, right?
Plus we all book all our accommodation before leaving home, don't we?
"At Spanish border control, you may need to:
- show a return or onward ticket
- show you have enough money for your stay
- show proof of accommodation for your stay, for example, a hotel booking confirmation, proof of address if visiting your own property (e.g. second home), or an invitation from your host or proof of their address if staying with a third party, friends or family."
- My point, and I think most will agree the Spanish police and authorities enforce their laws with quite a light hand in regard to tourists. I would think this will be no different
If everyone were discreet and left no trace, but truth is very many are not and do leave one.Though, back to Santiago ... a picnic in the Cathedral square? Oh dear, I could/would do that, seems ok to me, as long as nothing is left behind when leaving ... actually, seems more than ok to me ... seems like a lovely thing to do.
The chalk thing has been very exaggerated -- it's impermanent, and the plaza is cleaned IIRC twice/day with powerful water spraying machines. Poor peregrina to have been so singled out in the local Press for having done so much less than some serious vandals, but well -- there's the Camino for you !!Religious centres have always had lots of people visiting and doing what visitors do - I can see why pilgrims might want to chalk messages to their friends who hadn't arrived yet, where they were staying for instance, but I don't like graffiti .. so maybe a notice board somewhere for that task? Rather than criminalise something, incorporate it in a positive way?
Not if you are a foot pilgrim walking into Spain from France or Portugal. Or the other directions. Though the minimum €900 thing one should be more careful about ; though I *think* that technically it's at least €900 on arrival plus at least €900/month. For shorter stays, the more rigorous requirements can apply.I would think the vast majority of pilgrims breach the rules of Spain. As we know many, if not most like to do the Camino on the cheap but
"Currently, the minimum amount of money that you need to prove you have is €100 per person per day (£85), with a minimum of €900 (or its equivalent in foreign money) effective from January 1, 2022."
All perfectly true, but the Spanish Police are generally quite tolerant of foot pilgrims on these silly Ways of Saint James !!"At Spanish border control, you may need to:
- show a return or onward ticket
- show you have enough money for your stay
- show proof of accommodation for your stay, for example, a hotel booking confirmation, proof of address if visiting your own property (e.g. second home), or an invitation from your host or proof of their address if staying with a third party, friends or family."
Love that idea.In the middle ages, the Archbishop had a prison for pilgrims, so perhaps the new Archbishop might be persuaded to open one up in a disused convent. Hooligans could be sentenced to a week of learning Gregorian chant.
You certainly couldn’t do that in France. The cheapest Gite that we stayed in was around 50€ including a meal and dorm and picnic lunch.I wish I did, but I'm poor. My Camino this year will be shoestring level. I will probably have 900 euros for the entire time. Aim is 20 euros per day.
There are albergues in France too, and I've slept for far cheaper than that, and virtually never in a gîte ...You certainly couldn’t do that in France. The cheapest Gite that we stayed in was around 50€ including a meal and dorm and picnic lunch.
I believe that @Pathfinder075 is planning to camp quite a bit.You certainly couldn’t do that in France. The cheapest Gite that we stayed in was around 50€ including a meal and dorm and picnic lunch.
I don't think it would impact most tourism. If not being able to destroy priceless heritage would ruin your vacation, I'm sure the country doesn't want or need you. I hope he gets a huge fine and jail time.Another dumbass that thought he could do what the hell he wanted. I read he has been apologising to the Italian police and asking whether he will get a prison sentence, which i think isn't a good punishment for this offence. The good old community service would be a better option, basically clean up the colliseum for a week or two, get to see why you should show some respect for the place.
The problem is if they decided to enforce this, they would kiss there tourist trade good bye, which I'm sure would completely screw the country up.
Another incident that the local news sites are adding to the growing list of poor behaviour: someone filmed using the 16th century carvings of the Puerta Santa as a climbing wall.
https://www.elcorreogallego.es/sant...dente-turismo-incivico-santiago-89399311.html
I do hope they fined him severely. One would have thought that someone with the skills to scale a building would also know that that activity is illegal in most Western countries.Another incident that the local news sites are adding to the growing list of poor behaviour: someone filmed using the 16th century carvings of the Puerta Santa as a climbing wall.
https://www.elcorreogallego.es/sant...dente-turismo-incivico-santiago-89399311.html
He is not from the US , he is from the UK.It is difficult with influxes of tourists; on our news today is a video of a young American couple doing "Ivan and Hayley" graffiti on the Coliseum in Rome!
No, he is Bulgarian and moved to the UK. Not "from".He is not from the US , he is from the UK.
It seems that a group of pilgrims decided to be deliberately provocative yesterday and set up their tent in the Obradoiro. A very brief display and quickly removed. Perhaps in response to the recent controversy on the news websites.
Un grupo de peregrinos monta su tienda de campaña en la Praza do Obradoiro
La Policía Local de Santiago intervino con rapidez y obligó a desmontar una instalación con la que el Concello asegura que se quiso «provocar e facer un show»www.lavozdegalicia.es
I'm not embarrassed because those jerks are not me, or anything to do with me. If they were pilgrims they would be more considerate.vicarious embarrassment.
That may be part of the reason. And perhaps the fear of escalation - once chalk is considered acceptable then perhaps someone else will choose to use marker pens or paint to give their own inscriptions an extra vibrant appearance which stands out from the rest? The Cruz de Ferro has gradually evolved from a place to leave a stone to an ugly display of garbage. Though I think most of the negative reaction was more to do with the self-centred ostentatious nature of the act itself.That said I fail to completely understand the outrage over the use of chalk. It washes off, after all. I guess it's fear of snowballing numbers of copycats, fuelled by the social media.
Yes. Good point. I hadn't considered this - copycats yes, but Sharpies or paint no. And of course someone would do that.And perhaps the fear of escalation
Not if you are a foot pilgrim walking into Spain from France or Portugal. Or the other directions. Though the minimum €900 thing one should be more careful about ; though I *think* that technically it's at least €900 on arrival plus at least €900/month. For shorter stays, the more rigorous requirements can apply.
Spain, Portugal, and France are among the 26 Schengen countries that have agreed to have open borders with each other and to use a common set of rules for all people from outside.And what tickets, if you've walked into Spain and then perhaps again walked out into Portugal or France ?
Yes but those rules principally concern entry and exit via ports and airports.Spain, Portugal, and France are among the 26 Schengen countries that have agreed to have open borders with each other and to use a common set of rules for all people from outside.
When I'm not mistaking there are 27 Schengen Countriesthe 26 Schengen countries
Here's the articleI tried to download the news article from the Orange County Register, Monday, July 10, but was unable to do so.
"OC tourist's video of man defacing the coliseum in Rome makes international news".
Thank you trecileHere's the article
OC tourist’s video of man defacing the Colosseum in Rome makes international news
Footage captured by Ryan Lutz shows a person appearing to etch names into the nearly 2,000-year-old bricks of the ancient amphitheater.www.ocregister.com
I walked the Frances in January and was sad to see a great deal of graffiti along the way. Though I could not honestly say whether it was any worse than on my previous CF walk in 2016. Some of those writing or painting repeated their messages many times. Very depressing sight.Just curious, has anyone now walking the Camino (any route) noticed defacing actions increasing on the Camino? Not just in Santiago.
Don't be so hard on yourself, Bristle Boy; they come from everywhere.Not only is the miscreant who damaged the colosseum a Bulgarian residing in the UK. He also lives, works and came from Bristol.
I hang my head in shame.
Probably thought it was funny and regrets giving his permission to have his photograph taken.Someone apparently thought it was a good idea to pick up a Camino signpost from the side of the path, carry it into town then abandon it beside the cathedral.
Un peregrino llega a Santiago cargando una señal indicativa del Camino en lo que parece ser el enésimo acto incívico en apenas un mes
www-lavozdegalicia-es.cdn.ampproject.org
Well, he did cover his face with the sign post he carried.Probably thought it was funny and regrets giving his permission to have his photograph taken.
It may have fallen over accidentally or been pulled out of its original site by some vandal. Neither seems like enough justification for taking it and then dumping it in central Santiago.The young man says he found the sign pulled out of the earth and lying on the ground
There is huge irony given the discussion going on with regard to the Forum rules.I observe, with much irony, that the typical tourist to Santiago may become more preferable to the neighbors.
Very sad.
La Voz de Galicia is returning to the topic of inappropriate behaviour again today. This time people sleeping in the Azabacheria right outside the cathedral.
Un grupo de peregrinos amanece durmiendo delante de la Catedral de Santiago
La foto se hizo a las 08.10 horas de este viernes en Azabachería. En el Obradoiro, y pese a la anunciada vigilancia de la Policía Local, las malas prácticas continúan con sucesivos pícnics. Vota y opina: ¿Crees que se están tomando las medidas suficientes ante los actos incívicos?www.lavozdegalicia.es
What is this lately?
Is there an Instagram influencer somewhere promoting this kind of behaviour? Or maybe an insane article telling this is now the latest trend?
I sometimes fear for mankind. I really do.
And no, my statement has nothing to do with the pilgrim/ tourist discussion here.
La Voz de Galicia are keeping up the focus on the problem with another article.
Lo último en los desmanes incívicos en Santiago: pícnic con cámping gas en el Obradoiro
Un grupo de jóvenes se puso a comer en las escaleras de la plaza tras calentar una sopa. Vota y opina: ¿Crees que se están tomando las medidas suficientes ante los actos incívicos?www.lavozdegalicia.es
The only major change of this nature that I saw on the Francès last year, compared to the 2014, was the massively much larger proportion of "Sarria pilgrims" ; including a huge increase of organised tours walking in large groups, coach-supported and with day packs at most, and with sleeping arrangements outside the Albergues network, and really not socially integrated with the foot pilgrims generally ; and the much larger proportion of young Spanish pilgrims solo or in small groups initially but congregating into large groups, and very party-going ones (there's some of this on the Portuguese, but then they seem to be concurrently quite a bit more serious about the hiking and biking and religious aspects).It is all a part of the steady decline in the attitude and motivation of the pilgrims over the past 10 years.
The last 5 years of rapid commercialization in all areas of the CF ( and a couple of others) have brought about a huge change in many of those who now "hike" the routes.
Correct. Croatia joined this year.When I'm not mistaking there are 27 Schengen Countries
Thanks, and just be patient. The Camino will outlast us,It is all a part of the steady decline in the attitude and motivation of the pilgrims over the past 10 years.
The last 5 years of rapid commercialization in all areas of the CF ( and a couple of others) have brought about a huge change in many of those who now "hike" the routes.
So apparently pilgrims arriving these days have no idea about any of the rules against these practices, and the author of the following article thinks that whichever information campaign the Municipality has set up just is not working :
https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...da-me-avisado-absoluto/0003_202308S4C3991.htm
AbsolutelyBut should it not be common sense to know about general rules of politeness?
Sort of guessed that from context. Curiously, the last published Tintín book was titled ‘Tintin et les Picaros’. Interesting.
I’ve quoted this number already but I’ll quote it again. Santiago receives around 850000 visitors a year, less than half of whom are pilgrims. If 1% misbehave, that is 8500 misbehavers a year or an average of 23 a day, but more in summer in the high season. It is a question of sheer numbers, not necessarily a general moral decline, and yes, in the Middle Ages there were some very shifty characters about. They were called ‘picaros’, whatever that means.
That's the number of people sleeping at least one night there, if I remember the recent article on that question correctly. This plus day visitors will be a much higher number.I’ve quoted this number already but I’ll quote it again. Santiago receives around 850000 visitors a year
The pilgrims in the article were having their quick snacks out in the open -- which is something that many pilgrims do as a matter of course. It's not obvious to know which municipalities disallow it, though clearly excesses in doing so shouldn't need to be explained.But should it not be common sense to know about general rules of politeness?
Are we becoming a society where everything has to be explicitly explained?
Ah maybe I'm getting old.
To be fair, I would not know that it is against the general rules of politeness to picnic in a public square in Europe (assuming one cleans up after oneself). I have eaten publicly in many plazas in Europe over the years and been quite unaware of my rudeness.But should it not be common sense to know about general rules of politeness?
Are we becoming a society where everything has to be explicitly explained?
Ah maybe I'm getting old.
Yes me too! It’s not always obvious. For example there are many places in Australia you cannot drink alcohol… parks, some beaches, which I was quite unaware of and very different to most places in Europe, where it’s considered to be fairly normal.To be fair, I would not know that it is against the general rules of politeness to picnic in a public square in Europe (assuming one cleans up after oneself). I have eaten publicly in many plazas in Europe over the years and been quite unaware of my rudeness.
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