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Not a tragedy, but you can not make plans to see it... unless you reserve and pay for it.In the 186 days from May to October last year the Botafumeiro was used 243 times! The cancellation of the Friday show is not a tragedy!
In the 186 days from May to October last year the Botafumeiro was used 243 times! The cancellation of the Friday show is not a tragedy!
Wikipedia says: 'It costs about 250€ for each thurible "performance" at the cathedral.'I am curious what the cost was for the generous hotel/restaurant association up to this point?
Wikipedia says: 'It costs about 250€ for each thurible "performance" at the cathedral.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botafumeiro
I think so too... so the last word had not yet been said on this I thinkIn the press reports the Hotel Association say they have no money. I don't really know but I suspect there is some political brinkmanship going on - the Friday Botafumeiro which was only introduced a few years ago is a great tourist attraction therefore I suspect the hoteliers and the cathedral want the regional government department of tourism to put up the cash. Watch this space!
Johnnie, the botafumiero is a religious experience, it isn't a show, or production, or any other entertainment analogy.In the 186 days from May to October last year the Botafumeiro was used 243 times! The cancellation of the Friday show is not a tragedy!
In all due respect, have mercy on the pilgrims, and resist the urge to denigrate.
I'm sorry Jennifer, but if you cannot see that the Catholic liturgy is designed and conducted as stage performance, you have blinkers on. Without denigrating the religious experience in any way, the mass is educational story-telling performance at its very best. It is undertaken by well rehearsed individuals, often in wonderfully elaborate and intricate costumes and performed on stages ranging from the plain to extraordinarily elaborate. The mass is broadly themed, but with an episodic nature as the church celebrates the cycle of religious seasons and its saints. And while the religious climax of a mass in the cathedral at Santiago might not be the swinging of the botafumeiro, it is certainly a dramatic culmination that leaves the congregation in awe.Johnnie, the botafumiero is a religious experience, it isn't a show, or production, or any other entertainment analogy.
I may look into this...@ivar,
I saw someone post the original Spanish notice about the possible cancellation of Friday Botufumeiro services due to the cost of it, as it is privately funded when the Botu swings on this day.
I was thinking if there could be a crowdfunding angle to this as I have enjoyed the gift of some locals paying for my celebration at entering Santiago. And in gratitude I would naturally be willing to drop some cash locally for others to have the same thrilling experience.
It still sticks to my mind, on my retina as a communal way of celebrating life and togetherness ...
And would you consider setting up a service in this forum for us to funnel some funds into this effort !??
Heck, it was in the movie.
I respected the no camera requirement for the duration of the mass, but I pulled out my camera and filmed for a minute. The mass had ended at that point and felt no qualms filming then.
There may have been the final blessing still to go, but essentially it was over.Does the Botafumeiro really swing after mass has ended? My memory may be off, bit I think mass keeps going after the swing. No?
I like the fact that in this day and age it is something real, not a product of electronics, that catches people by surprise and strikes them with awe. That communal intake of breath from the congregation, as it swings high overhead...Definitely worth sitting in the transepts to get the full effect.
Several points of clarification (if we have a Catholic priest or deacon in the thread (or Johnnie Walker), please correct me if I misstated something):
A Catholic priest speaks:Does the Botafumeiro really swing after mass has ended? My memory may be off, bit I think mass keeps going after the swing. No?
Having made it to Santiago more then a couple of times over the years, I love seeing the "event" at the end of the mass. It is not the reason I walk, just a sort of Camino bonus.
The real Camino gold, is the time for reflection and meditation. Like packing my rucksack before walking, I have to remember that sometimes less is really more!
If however the motive is for more bums on seats and bed nights in Santiago then then spiritual journey a Camino can be, swing away! I can't believe that the commercial community in Santiago can't afford this, every time I visit there are new hostels and hotels.
Twice recently I was interested to see the use of thurible and incense in a procession at Canterbury Cathedral (Anglican).
I don't it. The thing flies so often. I just pop my head in a few minutes before mass and if the cord is down it means the show will be on. If not, just pop back in a few minutes before the next mass. With so many masses a day, unless you are arriving to Santiago to head out to the airport just after having hugged the statue and visited the crypt, you will see the flying botafumeiro....by the way I saw in the paper today that there will be a meeting in the "next few days" between the local government and the restaurant/ hotel association about this. I bet that this will work itself out somehow...
Absolutely. I would grab those people by the ear and drag them out the door. And those wandering around. No. Simply no.@SEB
Frankly I'd rather see a complete ban on photography during services which is rigorously enforced - even if it means seriously embarrassing the offenders.
pardon moi - ich bin perplexed: a "Show"? It's a church , a cathedral, a place of worship.In the 186 days from May to October last year the Botafumeiro was used 243 times! The cancellation of the Friday show is not a tragedy!
I think that is exactly the point. By scheduling based on received income it is for many now seen as a show. And many of those many, I'm sure, would prefer the cathedral be treated,and act, as the place of worship it is.pardon moi - ich bin perplexed: a "Show"? It's a church , a cathedral, a place of worship.
Aren't shows scheduled in the theatre / a circus / a zoo ?
A Catholic priest speaks...
The thurible, which is the metal container swung on chains, whihc contains glowing charcoal, on to which (frank)incense is put to make scented smoke, is used liturgically at a High Mass (historically) or at a Mass on a solemnity...
Ivar, greetings a New Year filled with many blessings. On the Swinging of the censer, never have been a believer of it although saw it once but was wondering if it was important or just a matter of theatrics. Nevertheless if it does something for others well so be it. Cannot though understand why hotels and restaurants not willing to pay for it? After all the pilgrims are bringing good revenues to Santiago. Nevertheless my humble feelings.When will the botafumeiro swing? Is one of the most asked questions by pilgrims in Santiago. The last few years, pilgrims have been assured that the friday afternoon mass (19.30/7.30pm) it will swing for sure. The reason for this is that the association of hotels and restaurants in Santiago has paid the Cathedral for this. Until now. It seems that they are not able to afford this, and the Cathedral is not swinging unless they get paid.
So, if there is no change to this... we are back to "no one really knows" when the botafumeiro will swing. It will most likely swing many times per week during the busy season, but nothing is scheduled and publicized.
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ernes/idEdicion-2017-01-08/idNoticia-1035326/
http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482
Ivar
@SEB I very much agree with what you say about the smaller, more intimate services in the cathedral. In 2015 I walked to Rome in midsummer and arrived at St Peter's shortly before noon. I couldn't bear to enter the scrum in and around the basilica there and then - especially as on a previous tourist visit I had found it a surprisingly hollow experience for such a magnificent and historic building. So I found a room nearby and returned in early morning just as the doors opened. Completely different atmosphere: masses being said for small groups, or by a priest alone at an altar. People moving quietly, reverently and purposefully. Down in the crypt just myself and a nun standing in silence at Peter's tomb. What struck me then was that the basilica is not so much one monolithic building but an enclosure protecting many more intimate spaces. I think that is true of many great churches, Santiago included.
Must disagree on charging a camera fee though. I am always uneasy when churches start levying fees for visits and related matters: though I think that charging for attached museums is perfectly reasonable. Frankly I'd rather see a complete ban on photography during services which is rigorously enforced - even if it means seriously embarrassing the offenders.
Absolutely. I would grab those people by the ear and drag them out the door. And those wandering around. No. Simply no.QUOTE]
Thank you Bradypus and Anemone del Camino for your comments and for correcting my suggestion. You are quite right, a ban would be preferable but, as some people attending the Mass exhibit total disrespect for the faith of others by taking photographs even during the blessing and the giving of the sacrament I doubt that there would ever be sufficient security staff to eject rude sightseers who prefer the securing of the 'object' (the photograph) to being involved in the actual experience. If it was just their loss I would not bother but the scrum to secure the best camera vantage point diminishes the sacred atmosphere that should be an integral part of the Mass.
Thank you again to Johnny Walker for all that he does to ensure the continuation of the English Mass in the side chapel.
Yes, we were there on that occasion in 2009. The Botofumeiro was used early in the Mass before the procession with the statue of St James. This procession and the Archbishop passed up the side aisle and down the centre aisle to the high Altar to begin Mass. We noted the respect shown as there was no flashes. Also there were fewer pilgrims back then, and a number of local ladies made up the congregation numbers.My hazy recollection of Pentecost Sunday (a major solemnity) about 8 years ago in SdC was that the botafumeiro was used at the beginning of Mass, but I would not swear to that in a court of law.
Thanks so much for confirming that, @Tia Valeria - that was my first time in Santiago, definitely 2009 - May 31. I have slightly more grasp on my memory than I thought!Yes, we were there on that occasion in 2009. The Botofumeiro was used early in the Mass before the procession with the statue of St James. This procession and the Archbishop passed up the side aisle and down the centre aisle to the high Altar to begin Mass. We noted the respect shown as there was no flashes. Also there were fewer pilgrims back then, and a number of local ladies made up the congregation numbers.
Yes the two books are definitely from the same stable! And equally amusing. Thanks for the link. I don't think F&O'C is online. It keeps getting republished.Fortescue and O'Connell sounds like a gripping read. There is a remarkable Victorian Anglo-Catholic guide to ceremonial which I find one of the most ludicrous and yet entertaining pieces of prose ever written: Ritual Notes. I keep a copy on hand for when I run out of Tom Sharpe or PG Wodehouse to re-read. Some kind person even digitized it and posted it online. The frontispiece is a diagram showing exactly how to cense an altar:
http://anglicanhistory.org/liturgy/ritual_notes_1894/
Still laughing at this.Reminded me of the story of an Orthodox priest meeting an Anglican priest for the first time. Understandably he had trouble working out quite what that meant:
"So you're a sort of Catholic then?"
"No...not exactly....not quite."
"Do you use incense at Mattins?"
"No."
"Well that proves it. You must be a Catholic."
A wonderful service (2009). We also were privileged to see the Botofumeiro in 2011 and 2012. The final time in Santiago we chose to attend the English Mass as we felt that was right for us that year. It has always been the Mass itself that was most important, the Botofumeiro was an added gift.Thanks so much for confirming that, @Tia Valeria - that was my first time in Santiago, definitely 2009 - May 31. I have slightly more grasp on my memory than I thought!
...by the way I saw in the paper today that there will be a meeting in the "next few days" between the local government and the restaurant/ hotel association about this. I bet that this will work itself out somehow...
PS:- Using the thurible. If you need to practise - borrow a ladies handbag with a long strap.
Thanks so much for confirming that, @Tia Valeria - that was my first time in Santiago, definitely 2009 - May 31. I have slightly more grasp on my memory than I thought!
When will the botafumeiro swing? Is one of the most asked questions by pilgrims in Santiago. The last few years, pilgrims have been assured that the friday afternoon mass (19.30/7.30pm) it will swing for sure. The reason for this is that the association of hotels and restaurants in Santiago has paid the Cathedral for this. Until now. It seems that they are not able to afford this, and the Cathedral is not swinging unless they get paid.
So, if there is no change to this... we are back to "no one really knows" when the botafumeiro will swing. It will most likely swing many times per week during the busy season, but nothing is scheduled and publicized.
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ernes/idEdicion-2017-01-08/idNoticia-1035326/
http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482
Ivar
When will the botafumeiro swing? Is one of the most asked questions by pilgrims in Santiago. The last few years, pilgrims have been assured that the friday afternoon mass (19.30/7.30pm) it will swing for sure. The reason for this is that the association of hotels and restaurants in Santiago has paid the Cathedral for this. Until now. It seems that they are not able to afford this, and the Cathedral is not swinging unless they get paid.
So, if there is no change to this... we are back to "no one really knows" when the botafumeiro will swing. It will most likely swing many times per week during the busy season, but nothing is scheduled and publicized.
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ernes/idEdicion-2017-01-08/idNoticia-1035326/
http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482
I'm sorry Jennifer, but if you cannot see that the Catholic liturgy is designed and conducted as stage performance, you have blinkers on. Without denigrating the religious experience in any way, the mass is educational story-telling performance at its very best. It is undertaken by well rehearsed individuals, often in wonderfully elaborate and intricate costumes and performed on stages ranging from the plain to extraordinarily elaborate. The mass is broadly themed, but with an episodic nature as the church celebrates the cycle of religious seasons and its saints. And while the religious climax of a mass in the cathedral at Santiago might not be the swinging of the botafumeiro, it is certainly a dramatic culmination that leaves the congregation in awe.
I noticed the same thing when I was there. People saving whole pews and then what looked like elderly citizens trying to find places in their own church. I was ashamed to be an American and seeing other Americans acting so unAnerican. The worse part was the tour groups being led by the person with a flag thru the cathedral while the Mass was happening. Very rudeBut it doesn't catch you by surprise, its planned and the majority of the people at the mass I attended were there, imho, not for the mass but for the "show" and that is the word I will use. People were pushing and shoving, they were being horridly disrespectful of the poor ushers who were trying to keep order, there were elderly towns people being pushed to the outer most corners by the throngs of people. There were so many arms holding up cameras that you couldn't see a thing even if you wanted. It made me sad that this was what the event was. One lady refused to share an entire pew as she had spread herself across it with her legs and purse "saving it for friends" who arrived well after the mass had started. She was awful to an elderly lady who wished to sit .. I got up from the concrete block I was sitting on and offered my place which she gratefully accepted. It left a very poor taste in my mouth and I know that on this next camino I have no desire to see such the show again.
IvarWhen will the botafumeiro swing? Is one of the most asked questions by pilgrims in Santiago. The last few years, pilgrims have been assured that the friday afternoon mass (19.30/7.30pm) it will swing for sure. The reason for this is that the association of hotels and restaurants in Santiago has paid the Cathedral for this. Until now. It seems that they are not able to afford this, and the Cathedral is not swinging unless they get paid.
So, if there is no change to this... we are back to "no one really knows" when the botafumeiro will swing. It will most likely swing many times per week during the busy season, but nothing is scheduled and publicized.
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ernes/idEdicion-2017-01-08/idNoticia-1035326/
http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482
Ivar
The credencial is just another way to get revenue for the Cathedral, as are the botofumeiro swings? One could argue Friday evening's 7 centimos per 267k walkers asking for a Compostela is already included in the price of the Credencial....
figure out the yearly cost & simply pass that cost to those purchasing a "Credential del Peregringo" as most who walk for religious, spiritual, or none of that will still visit the the Cathederal. In another post you show 267 thousand walked the Camino Francis.
I simply think that relying on outside business to pay for something that a specific population of humans arrive to see it would be more effective to have them share the burden more effectively. As far as pretend church goers is concerned who can judge that? The church has open doors for a reason. I do agree more respect is needed but unless we are willing to be the nun or priest walking around during mass with a wooden ruler disrespectful behavior will continue.The credencial is just another way to get revenue for the Cathedral, as are the botofumeiro swings? One could argue Friday evening's 7 centimos per 267k walkers asking for a Compostela is already included in the price of the Credencial.And I don't think increasing the price of the Credencial would be seen with a kind eye as it could be argued that it would increase the financial burden on "real" pilgrims with trully limited finances to walk the Camino.
And after all, the Cathedral has secured the funds, now it can think of another way to involve the locals.
A lot of money is needed to keep this beautiful and meaningful building standing, there is no doubt. Swings outisde of services, for a 5-10€ fee, with limited number of attendees to ensure better camera shots. This would also decrease the number of "pretend church goers" making for better behaviour during the sacred ritual of mass?
I would volunteer to walk around mass with a wooden rulwr, if I didn't have to become a nun, or a priest for that matter....
but unless we are willing to be the nun or priest walking around during mass with a wooden ruler disrespectful behavior will continue.
Let me know if I need to send you a yardstickI would volunteer to walk around mass with a wooden rulwr, if I didn't have to become a nun, or a priest for that matter.
Some volunteer in albergues, others to hand out Compostelas, and why not now at mass with a ruler?
It usually goes just before the final blessing at the end of the mass. However, the first time I saw it was on All Saints Day, November 1, It "flew" before the mass began and after a lengthy procession of clergy and statue in and out of the cathedral. The nice thing about the before Mass arrangement was that approximately half the people immediately left after the "swing," leaving the place open for a traditional mass.There may have been the final blessing still to go, but essentially it was over.
Sad that money now is a issue there also.When will the botafumeiro swing? Is one of the most asked questions by pilgrims in Santiago. The last few years, pilgrims have been assured that the friday afternoon mass (19.30/7.30pm) it will swing for sure. The reason for this is that the association of hotels and restaurants in Santiago has paid the Cathedral for this. Until now. It seems that they are not able to afford this, and the Cathedral is not swinging unless they get paid.
So, if there is no change to this... we are back to "no one really knows" when the botafumeiro will swing. It will most likely swing many times per week during the busy season, but nothing is scheduled and publicized.
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...ernes/idEdicion-2017-01-08/idNoticia-1035326/
http://www.catedraldesantiago.es/en/node/482
Ivar
I don't want to start a discussion about the role of Catholic church in Spain, but it is worthwhile noting that there is a kind of institutional "crowdfunding" established by law to support its activities. That is, taxpayers can tick boxes in their declarations for the Catholic church and/or NGOs, so a 0,7% of their taxes is given to the beneficiaries. In rough terms, a third of taxpayers do that, and it amounts to around 159 millions euros yearly.
http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2015/08/04/55c09aeb22601dc7018b4576.html
So, Masses and rituals are, I suppose, a kind of "public service".
The Church allocates these resources as it finds convenient. I have heard that a similar arrangement exists in Germany, for all established churches. Or maybe is it only in Bavaria? I am not sure.
You are correct in calling it a "show". Just lucky God still chooses to bless the pilgrims anyway. Gaz.In the 186 days from May to October last year the Botafumeiro was used 243 times! The cancellation of the Friday show is not a tragedy!
The Cathedral disagrees, and I do as well.You are correct in calling it a "show".
The Cathedral disagrees, and I do as well.
During the Mass I was wondering when they would use the Botafumeiro and then I realized "Ah, they must be saving it for dessert."However they decided that in this case it would be shown at the very end of the Mass often after the Mass has ended - for the reason if it came earlier many people would leave after it and not stay for the rest of the Mass.
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