Peregrina rescued by bomberos near Roncesvalles

[Bradypus]

A local news website is reporting the rescue of a German peregrina who took shelter overnight from heavy snow in a shepherd hut in the hills near Roncesvalles.

Rescatan a una peregrina alemana que ha pasado la noche en un refugio de pastores de Orbaizeta

La mujer, de 67 años, realizaba el camino de Santiago a la inversa y ha sido rescatada por los bomberos

www.diariodenavarra.es

 

[Kathar1na]

A local news website is reporting the rescue of a German peregrina who took shelter overnight from heavy snow in a shepherd hut in the hills near Roncesvalles.

In the zone of #Menditxipi (#Orbaiceta) and #Izandorre (#Orbaizeta) as it says in the tweets from the rescue services?

Perhaps @Monasp can explain to us how a peregrina can possibly get lost and end up there? In February and when, in addition, it was obvious that it was going to snow heavily? Judging by her comments on the Facebook page of the Pilgrims Office in SJPP I can just about guess ...

@m2m4christ posted yesterday afternoon: It was rainy today on our way to Valcarlos but tomorrow there is supposed to be 4 inches of snow. [...] Yes we’ve been warned to only walk on the road. We are not allowed to do any trail walking at all. They were very strict with these instructions to us at the pilgrims office.

See https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...os-to-roncesvalles-in-snow.78915/post-1108974

 

[Bradypus]

In the zone of #Menditxipi (#Orbaiceta) and #Izandorre (#Orbaizeta)?

Looks as if it is on the Route Napoleon about 2km south-west of the border.

 

[dougfitz]

In the zone of #Menditxipi (#Orbaiceta) and #Izandorre (#Orbaizeta) as it says in the tweets from the rescue services?

Perhaps @Monasp can explain to us how a peregrina can possibly get lost and end up there? In February and when, in addition, it was obvious that it was going to snow heavily? Judging by her comments on the Facebook page of the Pilgrims Office in SJPP I can just about guess ...

@m2m4christ posted yesterday afternoon: It was rainy today on our way to Valcarlos but tomorrow there is supposed to be 4 inches of snow. [...] Yes we’ve been warned to only walk on the road. We are not allowed to do any trail walking at all. They were very strict with these instructions to us at the pilgrims office.

See https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...os-to-roncesvalles-in-snow.78915/post-1108974

The news article suggests she was doing the Camino in reverse. I'm not sure that explains why she was in that area, because it certainly appears that she might have been intending to walk the closed section of the Camino Frances.

 

[J Willhaus]

The linked story is about 10 other youth in a different area not on the Camino. Bad day to be hiking in the Pyrenees.

 

[nycwalking]

This seems to happen at least once every winter.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

When I stayed at Corazon Puro in Viscarret pension in mid-April 2015, a middle age Spanish couple were at the communal dinner that night and shared that they had walked a day earlier on the Napoleon route and unexpected snowfall slowed them down, forcing them to spend the night in a stone hut. Possibly it was the same shepherd's hut as in the news article.

 

[Kathar1na]

Possibly it was the same shepherd's hut as in the news article.

You can see the shepherd’s shelter in the video. It is different from the two shelters on the Route Napoleon, namely the Izandorre emergency shelter built for pilgrims (close to the Lepoeder pass) and the old stone hut close to the Bentarte pass. Based on the description of the rescue teams on Twitter it is definitely not on the Valcarlos route.

I think it is good to know what happened so that pilgrims know of possible danger but are also not unduly worried.

 

[Kathar1na]

The manager of the Albergue de Roncesvalles said on their FB page that pilgrims should follow the advice available to them. She used the word osada to describe the pilgrim that got herself into trouble. DeepL.com proposes a number of words for osada: daring, courageous, adventurous, intrepid and reckless are among them.

​

Thanks to the rescue personnel, this ’osada’ pilgrim has been able to return to Roncesvalles.​

Please pay attention to the advice that you are given by the various information points and pilgrim offices.​

Better safe than sorry.​

Yesterday’s snowfall was not unexpected. It had been announced days earlier and at least in SJPP pilgrims had been informed and urged to stay on the Valcarlos road, with the Route Napoleon being off limits anyway until 1 April. Note that the pilgrim who needed rescue apparently walked went by bike FROM Roncesvalles TO SJPP.

Original Spanish: Gracias al personal de rescate, esta osada peregrina ha podido volver a Roncesvalles. Por favor, haced caso de las indicaciones que se os da desde los diferentes puntos de información y acogida al peregrino. Prevenir es curar.

 

[Kathar1na]

she was doing the Camino in reverse

Thanks for pointing this out. I am presumably not the first or the one and only reader who had initially not paid attention to this info in the article.

 

[Corned Beef]

There are penalties for using the Napoleon on the Spanish side. Are there similar penalties on the French side?

 

[Kathar1na]

There are penalties for using the Napoleon on the Spanish side. Are there similar penalties on the French side?

No, there aren't. The legal prohibition is only applicable on Spanish territory. It surprises me when incidents like this happen that the rescue teams often don't even mention that pilgrims are currently prohibited from walking along the Route Napoleon between Bentarte pass and Lepoeder pass, and they never mention any fines. A lost opportunity to reinforce the message ...?

 

[Bradypus]

There are penalties for using the Napoleon on the Spanish side. Are there similar penalties on the French side?

No. But I assume that the Spanish penalties would apply equally to those walking the closed section in either direction.

 

[Kathar1na]

Afaik, there are no warning signs or information boards when you approach from the Roncesvalles end.

Well, I guess the good thing is that you have at least a working mobile phone on you to place an emergency phone call when you don't pay attention to the weather forecast and don't read maps (or did not download one and don't have net access because you are in the mountains).

 

[Kathar1na]

BTW, we don't even know whether the rescued pilgrim ever set foot on the prohibited section. There are many ways to get lost between Roncesvalles and SJPP - even when the overwhelming majority of pilgrim don't get lost.

 

[dougfitz]

No, there aren't. The legal prohibition is only applicable on Spanish territory. It surprises me when incidents like this happen that the rescue teams often don't even mention that pilgrims are currently prohibited from walking along the Route Napoleon between Bentarte pass and Lepoeder pass, and they never mention any fines. A lost opportunity to reinforce the message ...?

It may be that the rescue teams don't have the authority to levee such penalties, and that these are calculated through some other judicial process, eg after all the costs of the rescue are known. I can see why it might be disappointing that they don't reinforce this message, but I suspect that they might be more focussed on having successfully rescued someone in danger than they are about the associated costs and any fines, etc.

 

[CarolamS]

I know that the UK Lifeboat service will never criticise someone they rescue. They might offer some advice if it's appropriate but always in a friendly manner. The reason being they do not want to put people off from calling them out. Far better to rescue someone than recover a body! The RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Institution) is a charity and well supported. It seems to work. They also try and educate as best they can to prevent problems. Telling the story of a rescue helps educate others, punishing them puts people off asking for help.

 

[Kathar1na]

I'm a paying member of an Alpine Club and I am aware of the controversial discussion about who has to pay for rescue operations in the mountains. A development in recent decades: More and more rescue operations (that are not accident-related) are due to "poor equipment, overestimating one's own fitness and lack of orientation". That is also the only reason why the regional government of Navarra has undertaken considerable investment for the Route Napoleon at high altitude such as building a shelter for Camino pilgrims, enforced marking of the trail by installing dozens of poles, installation of an emergency telephone in the shelter, installation of local wifi coverage for internet access in a limited area, and legal closure during the winter months for a trail that, under normal circumstances and for normal users, would neither require nor justify such an elaborate infrastructure.

I sometimes wonder whether it has to do with the idea that Camino pilgrims must walk every day, in all weather, with not a day to lose ...

But I agree that the lesson to be learnt from these reports is two-fold: Do not make the same mistake and do everything in your power to avoid it. If you are in trouble for whatever reason, do call 112 or do use the AlertCops app.

 

[J Willhaus]

In the video the snow didn't look that deep, but of course I was not there. Looked like she was able to ski out on her own power accompanied by the bomberos.

 

[Kathar1na]

Looks as if it is on the Route Napoleon about 2km south-west of the border.

View attachment 142153

Thanks, @Bradypus. Luckily, you picked a section of the map with the right Menditxipi, the one to the east of the Route Napoleon and to the east of the Izandorre shelter.

There is another Menditxipi nearby, to the west of the Valcarlos Route. I no longer follow Camino groups on FB but had a look now. The existence of this second Menditxipi has added to ... shall we say to the enrichment of the discussion . I wonder what Menditxipi means. All these fascinating names of the peaks in this area.

 

[Simon B]

A local news website is reporting the rescue of a German peregrina who took shelter overnight from heavy snow in a shepherd hut in the hills near Roncesvalles.

Rescatan a una peregrina alemana que ha pasado la noche en un refugio de pastores de Orbaizeta

La mujer, de 67 años, realizaba el camino de Santiago a la inversa y ha sido rescatada por los bomberos

www.diariodenavarra.es

At least she was safe!

 

[RJM]

Hope she gets a more than hefty bill for the rescue mission. How can you be so stupid and so careless about known blockages.

Whilst quite reckless, situations like that happen everyday all over the world. It's just part of life. I suppose whatever municipality or government agency overseeing rescues does an investigation and makes a decision based on all factors.
Many years ago when I was younger I was involved in a few first responder search and rescue incidents. We just went out and did it and I got to say despite it being something that you wish you didn't happen, it was an exciting thing to be a part of and you focus on the job at hand and when a rescue is made it's also quite rewarding and exciting. Also these units actually go out and train in simulated incidents, but I can attest none of the simulations match the real thing, which I hate to say is actually the best training. I'm not trying to minimize incidents like that or make light of them.
I remember one time there was a search put together for somebody missing in a desert area. They needed volunteers to go in the helicopters as observers looking for the missing person. Additional eyes with binoculars. There were more volunteers than needed, and quite a few had to be turned away and were visibly disappointed.

 

[C clearly]

Hope she gets a more than hefty bill for the rescue mission. How can you be so stupid and so careless about known blockages.

Certainly there is room for discussion about the pros and cons of fining or charging people for the costs of their rescues. There are various thoughtful arguments on both sides that are worth considering.

 

[Kathar1na]

What gets frequently overlooked in these discussions is the fact that pilgrims should not need to be rescued from the closed part of the Route Napoleon (and again, it is not known where the rescued pilgrim actually was other than that she was not on the road to Valcarlos) because they are pilgrims on the Camino de Santiago. The area to the right, left, up and down of the closed trail is full of hiking trails, some of them cut even through it and one runs parallel for a while.

To my knowledge none of these hiking trails is closed to the public in winter. The mountains around Roncesvalles are popular destinations for snow shoeing when there is enough snow for example. It is not that accidents happen and people need rescuing. It's that pilgrims should not even be in this specific area between SJPP and Roncesvalles. They should walk on the alternative Valcarlos trail from November to March and not on this trail.

Also, now and then in winter, pilgrims get lost, have an accident, are exhausted, or get hypothermia on the Valcarlos road/trail and need rescuing. I've never read that they would have to pay for their rescue or risk a fine. It is the specific situation of the closed Route Napoleon pilgrimage trail that is the issue.

 

[Gringazolana]

Maybe she was where she wasn’t “supposed” to be, but once she realized she was lost, she did everything she was supposed to do. Quit wandering, find shelter, set up a tent (apparently inside the shelter), and wait for rescue.

 

[dick bird]

I know that the UK Lifeboat service will never criticise someone they rescue. They might offer some advice if it's appropriate but always in a friendly manner. The reason being they do not want to put people off from calling them out. Far better to rescue someone than recover a body! The RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Institution) is a charity and well supported. It seems to work. They also try and educate as best they can to prevent problems. Telling the story of a rescue helps educate others, punishing them puts people off asking for help.

I think standard practice worldwide. It’s the same in Australia.

 

[Flog]

Hope she gets a more than hefty bill for the rescue mission. How can you be so stupid and so careless about known blockages

I'm just glad for her it was a happy ending, we all do stupid things..

Thirty years ago, while living in a tiny attic room in a historic building in Copenhagen, I fell asleep drunk while my chicken roasted itself to a cinder in the oven of the communal kitchen setting off the fire alarm. I was woken soon after by sirens and the sounds of shouting orders, heavy firemen's footsteps and the dragging of hoses along the corridor. I could do nothing but hide under my bed until the fuss died down. Had I come out with my hands up, I would have been handed a (then) €500 bill.

In my case it would have been more than well deserved.

 

[Kathar1na]

A bit of a surprise ... beautiful snowy mountain landscape, too ... see the video (not the photos which were taken yesterday). Today, they went and picked up the peregrina's bike. And it is indeed in the area that @Bradipus posted earlier. You also see two people out and about on their skis or snow shoes.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1629189253799215104

 

[J Willhaus]

Ah! So she was stranded on her bike! The snow must have really been coming down and suddenly by the looks of the bike.

 

[RJM]

Watching that video of the bicycle recovery I must say there is nothing about those conditions that screams out, what a great day for walkabout or a bicycle jaunt. It instead screams out difficulty in traveling, easy to get lost or lose the path and could be fatal, please postpone or bypass travel. That being said I'm glad to hear she was rescued safely.
I was just reading another thread on whether to bring a cellphone on the Camino. Well that incident gives another reason to and that is to check weather conditions where you are and where you are going. Advisories and alerts.

 

[Kathar1na]

So nothing new or unusual. The bike was left where they all get into trouble when it's winter and there is much more snow on the ground than further down and visibility is low: near the French-Spanish border on the Route Napoleon at 1300 m in the prohibited zone, on the north face of the Txangoa mountain.

 

[Corned Beef]

The Bomberos/as videos seems to show an e-bike. A case of pushing the limits using technology and finding you've gone beyond them?

PS Hope the Bomberos get a good donation for this. They deserve it and respect for what they do.

 

[J Willhaus]

The Bomberos/as videos seems to show an e-bike. A case of pushing the limits using technology and finding you've gone beyond them?

PS Hope the Bomberos get a good donation for this. They deserve it and respect for what they do.

Don't you think they returned it to her?

 

[Kathar1na]

Now that is clearer where all this happened: Unless someone met the peregrina and her e-bike in SJPP or Roncesvalles and asked we will not know whether she was starting her Camino or returning. I guess that the writer or editor of the article in the Diario de Navarra did not interview her …

Edited later to add: The pilgrim did indeed start her bike ride in Roncesvalles.

 

[Kathar1na]

The place where the e-bike was collected by the Bomberos team is about 10 km from Roncesvalles and about 16 km from SJPP and next to the Route Napoleon.

No matter where she started, one can’t help wondering at which point she realised that she was no longer on the road to Valcarlos …. .

I’m just trying to figure it out: When turning right and leaving the main road at the Ibaneta chapel and reaching the Lepoeder pass with the many signposts when coming from Roncesvalles? When passing Hunto and Orisson after a start in SJPP? Wouldn't it be helpful to know so that other e-biking pilgrims don’t make the same mistake in future …

 

[Ianinam]

As far as I know from the Spanish lady who works in the albergue she started in Roncesvalles and wanted to go to Valcarlos.

 

[Kathar1na]

As far as I know from the Spanish lady who works in the albergue she started in Roncesvalles and wanted to go to Valcarlos.

@Ianinam to the rescue! Thank you.

For the first time, I find this less mindboggling than at first and start to understand that you could take a wrong turn if you don't read maps or don't pay enough attention. Coming from Roncesvalles on the main road to Valcarlos there is a tourist sign, apparently also known as a brown sign in the UK at least, i.e. not a traffic/road sign, that says: "Turn Right" - namely into the small Ibañeta parking area for admiring the panorama and for taking photos. If one did not know that this is the Ibañeta pass and the Ibañeta chapel right ahead in plain view one could think that one needs to leave the main road and turn right and follow the minor road up the mountain. A road that does not go to Valcarlos but eventually ends at the Lepoeder pass and the end/start of the Route Napoleon ... phew ...

PS: The icon next to "Ibañeta" is an icon for an old-fashioned photo camera, isn't it?

 

[Ianinam]

@Kathar1na, I think you are right. Although I still wonder why one should leave the road which no doubt was swept clean by the snowthrowers as all the heavy traffic on its way to France has to take that road. In many countries a brown road sign points to a cultural or touristical point. I believe this is also the case in Germany, where this lady came from.
Anyway, she is rescued by the bomberos and also her bike was picked up by them. These men are really fabulous!

 

[MinaKamina]

List of fees for rescue services, Lex Navarra, Articulo 51 bis C, applicable when

c) Tracking, rescue or salvage, in the following cases:

1.º When the affected person has not heeded the bulletins or part of the warnings of alert or adverse weather forecast, of orange, red or equivalent level, issued by the competent official services.

2. In areas of risk or difficult access, when this is due to reckless or reckless behaviour on the part of the beneficiary.

3. When the action takes place in areas marked as dangerous or in areas to which access is prohibited or restricted.

4. When it is carried out on the occasion of the practice of organised recreational and sporting activities that involve risk or danger to people.

5. When the people affected are not wearing the appropriate equipment for the activity.

6. When they affect animals with an identifiable owner.

7. When the service is requested without objectively justified reasons, as well as in the case of simulating the existence of risk or danger.


http://www.lexnavarra.navarra.es/detalle.asp?r=28015#Ar.51 bis

 

[Kathar1na]

It says in Spanish that she was walking the Camino IN REVERSE towards SJPDP

Initially, I was skeptical about the accuracy of the reporting in the newspaper but now that @Ianinam confirmed the direction of travel thanks to her contacts in Roncesvalles where she has frequently served as a hospitalera I've gone through my posts and used strikeout formatting to adjust them. Also, the pilgrim had a bike with her so was presumably not walking.

 

[Corned Beef]

How does Lex Navarra, Articulo 51 bis C work? Does someone senior in the organisation decide that a charge should be applied and then they put it in front of a judge for approval before it is sent to the person?

Or is it similar to common law jurisdiction where the fine/penalty/fee is sent to the person and if not paid, there is an invite to stand before a judge and explain their case?

 

[peregrina2000]

How does Lex Navarra, Articulo 51 bis C work? Does someone senior in the organisation decide that a charge should be applied and then they put it in front of a judge for approval before it is sent to the person?

My understanding is that there’s a designated person on the rescue team who interviews the person being rescued and decides how those criteria quoted by @MinaKamina apply. That person makes the determination whether to impose a fee or not, but I’m sure there are appeals possible. As some have pointed out, this particular system may not be the best for enhancing the fee collection, because the rescuers may not see too many upsides to imposing a fee. Each autonomous region has its own law and rescue service, but the criteria I’ve seen for Asturias are similar.

 

[enyapjr]

I wonder what Menditxipi means. All these fascinating names of the peaks in this area.

Basque = small mountain

 

[SeaHorse]

the controversial discussion about who has to pay for rescue operations in the mountains.

Rescue is rescue even if stupidity is the reason it was needed. Unless it becomes a tik tok trend. Police chases of criminals on the other hand should be for fee only: want to run - pay for man hours, dog hours, car wear and tear, helicopter flight, fuel, etc.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Last time the Roncesvalles > SJPP crossing was materially feasible without direct danger to the pilgrim was in the first week of January ; and even then, NOT every day, just two days that week with particularly fine weather conditions.

Then the winter snow finally started.

It may be that the rescue teams don't have the authority to levee such penalties,

Such penalties are possible in France, and are sometimes imposed near here in the Alps when reckless behaviour can lead to particularly dangerous helicopter rescue missions.

 

[Kathar1na]

Rescue is rescue even if stupidity is the reason it was needed.

Just to avoid misunderstandings: I did not express a personal opinion about stupidity or no stupidity and also not a personal opinion whether rescue operations in general should be free of charge for the rescued person or not. I just mentioned that I am aware of the discussion about this topic as to mountain rescue operations in the Alpine region and more specifically in the German and Austrian Alps.

I am also aware that several years ago when the legal closure of the Route Napoleon for pilgrims was introduced for the first time by the Navarra government there was explicit mention of charges to the rescued pilgrim (hourly price of helicopter, vehicles, rescue team members) and, in addition, explicit mention of administrative fines. I don't know whether any pilgrim was ever fined by the Navarra administration. The explicit references to charges and fines are no longer listed in the decree about the closure of the Route Napoleon that is published every October for the coming winter season.

I am interested in understanding what exactly happened and why; and how to prevent it.

 

[dougfitz]

Such penalties are possible in France, and are sometimes imposed near here in the Alps when reckless behaviour can lead to particularly dangerous helicopter rescue missions.

In making my comment that the rescue teams mightn't have been empowered to impose these penalties I wasn't thinking that there would be no penalty. Rather, I expected that the bill would be one that might arrive after some administrator had calculated the full cost of the rescue effort - personnel, vehicles, equipment, aircraft, etc. I was also expecting that any fines might be handled by the police or other investigators, and not by the rescue teams themselves.

 

[Kathar1na]

I remember the case of the two pilgrims who were dramatically - and luckily! - rescued on the Route Napoleon in March 2016. I believe that this was the first time that the question of charging and fining pilgrims who walked there despite it being forbidden by law was mentioned in local news media. Here is the link to an article that says that the staff committee of the rescue services are against the government charging for rescues and that they call for a stop to billing for the rescue of the two pilgrims:

La Comisión de Personal de los bomberos se opone a que el Gobierno cobre rescates

Pide que se paralice la facturación del salvamento de dos peregrinos brasileños

www.noticiasdenavarra.com

I don't know what happened in the end. I personally think that nobody knows other than those closely involved in the case.

 

[Kathar1na]

link to an article

The article refers to a law (Ley de Tasas) that is in force in Navarra since 2013. It defines cases of imprudencia which can be translated as imprudence or recklessness or carelessness or similar:

• a general criterion that entails the payment for a rescue is having been caused by some kind of imprudence, such as not paying attention to weather warnings or not being sufficiently well equipped in a given context.

Entering an area where it is explicitly forbidden for you to enter at specific times of the year qualifies perhaps as imprudencia, too.

 

[peregrina2000]

Having deleted a couple of tangents involving discussions of things so far removed from this thread as whether “Americans are stupid,” or whether Australians exhibit more detestable behavior than other nationalities, we’ve decided to close the thread. Thanks to those who have provided us with all the facts that anyone could need to understand the background here.