Please critique this idea

[Kiwi-family]

So we want to walk 1,000km minimum (but not too much more!)
There would be Mama and probably two lads, 11 and 13 years old (and maybe possibly perhaps but probably not - two girls aged 8 and 10 - very uncertain about the youngest one especially)

Start in Saint Jean, take the lower route, stopping in Valcarlos the first night, then on to Roncesvalles.
Wander on to Leon over the next 23 days - longest distance would be 23km, but most around 20.

Shoot up Camino del Salvador to Oviedo in six days (we have already walked the Frances section from Astorga and so would quite like to do a different route) - distances between 13.5 and 23.9km.

Hit the Primitivo for a couple of weeks. Some days would need to be long-for-us (24km), but they would be balanced out by short ones (8.8, 9.6, 13, 14).

Back on the Frances at Melide (need to visit a favourite bakery there for emapanadas, croissants and cookies that I don't know the name of but will recognise and buy in bulk!)....three days to get to Santiago, but will not stop at the cathedral.

Straight on out to Finisterre and then back to the square, the cathedral, the pilgrims' mass, the pilgrims' office - time allowed: ten days.

According to the mundicamino distances that would be 1083.5km, and by my calculations should take 59 days. I'd allow four days wriggle-room to bring the total time to nine weeks. If we discovered we were able to walk longer distances and ended up with extra time, there would be plenty of ways to fill it - my concern is that we allow *enough* time to not be rushing.

Am I missing anything significant?

 

[Olivares]

So we want to walk 1,000km minimum (but not too much more!)
There would be Mama and probably two lads, 11 and 13 years old (and maybe possibly perhaps but probably not - two girls aged 8 and 10 - very uncertain about the youngest one especially)

Am I missing anything significant?

Well, I think not much could be more significant that an adult attempting to walk 1000 kms with 4 minors in tow on a foreign land :shock: I would be concerned if one of the minors could not walk for any reason, what then....? everybody stops? Honestly, I would never attempt it nor advice to walk this type distance with minors unless there is a ratio one adult/minor.....but that's just me. All the best.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I would never attempt it nor advice to walk this type distance with minors unless there is a ratio one adult/minor.....but that's just me.

You will be on some lightly traveled caminos, so you need to know your plan if one of the three of you is disabled. It is generally a good idea to have a buddy system so that no one is every alone. With only one adult, who goes for help if you need it? No matter how self-reliant your children, would it be good parenting to leave two children in the middle of a camino while you went for help? Send a child alone? Send two children off together to get help? I can think of a number of scenarios that would not be approved by child protective services!

The Camino Frances is a bit different because I cannot remember being further than five minutes from the nearest fellow pilgrim. On the Primitivo, you may be alone for days.

 

[zammy]

I strongly suggest you consult a physician, taking such young kids on a very long and strainous walk might do some harm to their bones.
Another risk is heat and sun strok- read more here:
http://shine.yahoo.com/keeping-kids-coo ... 00804.html

 

[hecate105]

You know your kids - if you think they can do it - they can! I think it is great to take them on such an adventure - beats going to a beach resort and being stuck in a kids club! People undervaluate how self-reliant and flexible kids can be, they need a chance to use/express this - they are in training to be adults!
It makes sense to have a plan for any unforeseen circumstance - 'to fail to plan is to plan to fail' as someone wisely said! I've found kids love planning for nightmare scenarios - many miles can be walked whilst discussing them!
We met a 14 year old lad walking from Holland to Santiago alone when we were on Camino - how brave and resourceful was he?!
I have read books about people taking their children across europe on donkeys (2 years) and about a family spending 7 years travelling the world by horse and cart. One child had to travel 2 days alone to get supplies. They all grew up to do amazing things - confident and capable.
Maybe we mollycoddle kids too much nowadays - I certainly thank my late father for route-marching me across Dartmoor with map and compass, getting me to light a fire in all weathers to cook, and teaching me to sail. These skills enable us to become problem-solving adults who grab life and live it to the full.
Well done, and I hope you all enjoy your Camino, Ulyreya!

 

[Sagalouts]

sounds good,its not like you've no experience though would be worried taking the 2 girls not just because they are young or the fact they are girls,I'm sure they could both out-walk me-thinking more about numbers and the fact the Primitivo has a fair bit of road walking in traffic.
as for the older ones I would have loved this journey when I was their age it would have been a heck of a lot safer than some of the other stuff I was getting up to :roll:
Ian

 

[peregrino_tom]

Hi kiwi-family
all looks pretty good to me. There may be some people posting here who don't know that you and all the family have already walked from Astorga, or that you are a meticulous planner. Presumably some of this idea is coming from the kids themselves who have already worked out their capabilities from the 2012 walk and will be bigger and stronger by the time of the next adventure.
One thing I didn't pick up is the time of year you are planning on going. At whatever time the Salvador is likely to be very quiet I think (though I'm guessing you'll have already absorbed the observations of Laurie,Reb and co. on the Salvador pages), but for three seasons I'd expect you to come across quite a few pilgrims on the Primitivo. In my view the road walking on the Primitivo is not dangerous (nothing of the order of the Camino Portuguese) and it's mainly country lanes.
I'm assuming you and the family have already walked up to O'Cebreiro although I couldn't find that on your blog? If so, there's no need to rule out the Route Napoleon before you've even started - it's no harder. If you're not going in winter, then just check into the Pilgrim Office in St Jean for the weather forecast and decide accordingly. And if you want to research it further you can even watch the radio buen camino video pt 1 which just about covers every kilometre of the route http://vimeo.com/34380639 (but it also might spoil it for you!)
I think you've paced it pretty well and allowed lots of time for recovery. You might find though that rather than three or four days of around 10k it's more relaxing to walk a little more and take a whole day off. When you walk for this long, sometimes its the routine as much as the physical exertion that becomes tiring.
Re: the 10 days for the trip to Finisterre. Is this a round trip? if so, it will be tight, as it could take you five days to get to Finisterre (Negreira, Vilaserio/Sta Marina, Olveiroa, Cee, Finisterre). Then Muxia? If you took a bus back it would work, but you mightn't quite manage your 1000km???
cheers, tom

 

[wayfarer]

Go with your gut and your heart, kids are capable of a lot more than we give them credit for. I would agree with sticking to the Frances as you can walk shorter stages and you are never alone or very far from habitation or help if needed.
Buen camino.
Have a great adventure. :arrow:

 

[Tia Valeria]

As you have already walked then you know your youngsters abilities. If in doubt about the long section from Casa de Ponti (Ferreira) to Melide you could take the side road to Palas de Rei instead. At the Roman bridge turn left instead of right. This is easy if you book into the casa rural at Casa de Ponti and also saves a short distance on that day from San Roman de Retorta. If you would like the phone number for the casa just PM us. The owner is very friendly and has walked himself. Prices are reasonable and the evening meal is amazing. Good breakfast too.

 

[peregrina2000]

Hi, kiwi-family,

I think all your research has brought you to a good plan, and I have walked the Primitivo and Salvador a couple of times alone. There are a few stretches where there is no cell phone service and no people so I guess falcon is right that there is some risk.

I know that there are lots of competing computations of distances, but I think that mundicamino has a long established tradition of underreporting kilometers. For instance on the Salvador, the guide I used (http://www.caminodelsalvador.net) gives a six day version with these distances:
Leon - La Robla (27)
La Robla - Poladura (26)
Poladura-Pajares (14)
Pajares - Pola de Lena (26)
Pola de Lena - Mieres (15)
Mieres - Oviedo (19)

The guide also has an 8 day plan that cuts everything down nicely except the Pajares to Pola de Lena stage. There are a couple of pensiones in Campomanes, which is between Pajares and Pola de Lena, so conceivably you could get a 9 day version that keeps all days under 20.

Of those three long days listed above, Leon to La Robla has little elevation gain; La Robla to Poladura has the first big climb, and Poladura to Pajares has the second big climb with a fairly steep descent. Pajares to Pola de Lena, at least up to Campomanes, has several variants, but the left hand one is beautiful, goes through a few sparsely populated and also abandoned hamlets and has some manageable ups and downs.

If you want detailed feedback on your primitivo plan, if you post your proposed stages there are lots of us here who are very familiar with that route and can react. Tom is right that the Primitivo will not be deserted, unlike the Salvador. You are likely to find a near perfect amount of pilgrim traffic.

I think your children are very lucky to have yet another camino opportunity on the horizon. If I had only started walking the camino when I was their age, I'd be on my 50th this summer!

Buen camino, Laurie

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Hi, kiwi-family, I think all your research has brought you to a good plan, and I have walked the Primitivo and Salvador a couple of times alone. There are a few stretches where there is no cell phone service and no people so I guess falcon is right that there is some risk. Laurie

Hola - I'm not sure this is quite correct - the 112 emergency number searches out any available network no matter what provider the user is contracted to. I'm sure I read somewhere - but of course can't lay my hands on it now, that between providers there is virtually universal coverage in Spain.

This family is very experienced and the two boys are teenagers. With planning, preparation and common sense this adventure will be just fine I am sure.

Buen camino

John

 

[Tia Valeria]

Just to add to Johnnie's post. On the Primitivo there was good coverage for Orange and Movistar. I think that 'foreign' phones will latch on to the nearest mast anyway, even if you then pay roaming charges. If getting a phone in Spain then Movistar seems to us to have the best all round cover.

 

[TerryB]

On the Camino Primitivo, there is (at present) a daily bus (Alsa) service between Oviedo and Grandas de Salime. You will need to check the times when you are in Oviedo as things may change with the economic situation. There is also a daily service between Fonsagrada (the Freire bus company) and Lugo, via Cadabo. So in case of trouble there is a way forward. However there is NO service between Grandas de Salime and Fonsagrada across the provincial boundary! If you ran into difficulties there (and it is about 20k to Fonsagrada from Castro where there is a private albergue) you would need to phone for a taxi. We did this last May in heavy, cold rain and it worked well!
Phone:- Antonio - 982 34 01 26
You can always get a taxi back to where you left off, if it is important to you to walk all the way!
Our blog on the Camino Primitivo is here:- http://camino-primitivo-2012.blogspot.co.uk/
If you want a list of phone numbers for the accomodation we used, just ask.
Last year on the Primitivo we did not find anywhere without a reasonable mobile signal, nor need there be very much 'on road' walking - unless it is very foggy over the tops when it may be safer to stay on the road.

Blessings on your planning!
Tio Tel

 

[newfydog]

All I can say if that when I was 8-13 much of what I read was journals of great voyages, and the opportunity to do a trip such as that would have been the greatest moment of my life.

 

[annakappa]

Hello Rachel. I'm sure that you have been checking out loads of possibilities for this Pilgrimage, however, if it's a question of marking up the 1000 Kms, have you considered starting further back in France and therefore stay on the Camino Frances, where, as you know, you have most definitely more facilities, especially as you will be the only adult. Accidents can happen,as you know to well with your daughter's broken arm last September. Had it been a leg problem,then things would have been much more complicated! (This last time, I tripped over a mini step and broke a rib - basically no problem, but it could have been something on the leg/foot, which would have meant looking for help when we were on a very rugged stretch in Galicia, where it would have been impossible to reach me by road). That said, I think you have one great family and I'm sure you will take the best solution for you all! Anne

 

[tendigrino]

Hello.
It is a wonderful journey. I guess you know the difficulty of the path of El Salvador and the loneliness of this. The primitive road is also harder than the French way.
But you can learn the best and most authentic of Asturias.
I think two adults to four children can be little.
Buen Camino to Santiago.
Ultreya.

 

[Olivares]

Let me emphasize (because it may not be quite as apparent as one might think...) that concerns expressed had all to do with SAFETY AND SECURITY LOGISTICS and has ZERO to do on whether one thinks this is or not a great adventure, etc... "Kiwi Mama" obvioulsy already thought and knows this is a great adventure; it is the practical elements that she asked about.

I still think the concerns expressed about safety, proper child oversight, and physical demands on a developing young body stamina need to be well thought out and addressed.

 

[Kiwi-family]

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to either comment on this thread (or any of the other one where I am soliciting information) or send me a PM. I really appreciate what each person has added to the conversation. I had an uncomfortable moment in this thread when I thought a responder was criticised too harshly, but complete graciousness on her part has won the day.
There does seem to be a range of opinions - from "this is a completely bad idea" to "there are risks but they are not insurmountable if you plan accordingly".
Some suggestions I have heard and understand (for example - don't walk 8km, but take a complete rest day) - but will respectfully ignore in the sense that those very short days are essential to keep the days either side of them below 20 or so km. (I will, at the same time, take the advice and allow for some complete rest days.)
Other issues raised I am following up - so far it seems (according to medical expertise I have consulted) that there is little danger in allowing children to walk a long distance, so long as you listen to their bodies' needs.
The balance seems to be swinging in favour of leaving the younger girls at home (and maybe doing another walk with them in a few years) and going with just the boys now - 11/12 years old this year or 12/13 next year. This makes the adult/child ratio quite acceptable in my mind (remember I'm used to dragging eight kids with me wherever I go - and actually I would consider 12/13 year olds to be young adults rather than children!)
Which route remains a question. The sensible option is clearly to start further back the Frances towards Le Puy and stay on that route. I'm not known for my sensibilities and a number of PMs have allowed me to think it would not be foolish to consider the other northern routes (although equal numbers advise against). The Via de la Plata is ruled out (in spite of its historical interest) due to long sections without accommodation.
Bordeaux to Santiago still holds appeal, but many have reiterated how hard it is (that said, we did not find the climb to O'Cebreiro to be difficult, but I understand it is not a fair comparison)....so I'm tending against it (although the boys would love to swim in the sea!)
Frances/Salvador/Primitivo/Frances/Finisterre still has a question mark hanging over it.
Thanks for your assistance in making the decision.

 

[Kiwi-family]

One more question: in your mind, would it be preferable to go up to Gijon and join the Northern route rather than take the Primitivo from Oviedo? Or are those two much of a muchness? (I'd be inclined to save the whole of the northern for another time, although if there were good reason to choose that over the Primitivo I would consider it).

 

[peregrina2000]

Hi, kiwi-family,

Just a few comments on the Gijon idea. Actually, if you wanted your camino to be continuous walking without bus transportation from the Frances to the Norte, you could walk from Leon to Oviedo on the Salvador, and then continue north from Oviedo to join the Norte in Aviles (closer to Oviedo than Gijon). I walked the Norte in 2006, and my memory is that there are fewer spectacular coastal parts from Aviles to the west than there are from Irun to Aviles. BUT, there are many beautiful stretches and some really lovely towns west of Aviles -- Luarca, Cudillero, and Tapia are a few that jump to mind.

In Ribadeo, the first town in Galicia, the route leaves the coast and turns inland; from there it heads southwest to Santiago. The scenery is typical Galicia, and there are some really nice albergues, towns, and sights from Ribadeo to Santiago. The monastery in Sobrado dos Monxes, the albergue in Baamonde, the CSJ albergue in Miraz, all are really nice.

The Norte has a lot of road walking, much more than the Primitivo, I'd say.

I absolutely love the Primitivo and would return in a heartbeat. There is much more of a camino "feeling" on it, in m opinion, than on the Norte, although once you hit Galicia on the Norte, the tourist vacation-y feel of the coast disappears. I think the Primitivo can be broken into stages that meet you and your children's needs, and Tia Valeria and Tio Tel have a lot of great advice to offer on that score.

This is a decision with no bad choice! Buen camino, Laurie

 

[gregdedman]

Just my tuppence worth....

In December of 2010, two days out of Santiago I came across a Japanese husband and wife with their toddler. This little fellow can only have been 2 years old.
Mum waited with toddler while dad walked 20 meters up the path and called to his son who duly trotted to his arms. They did this hour after hour, day after day.
It bought a tear to my eye to see the dedication and joy this family were experiencing together.

Incredible.

Greg

 

[Kiwi-family]

Here's a snippet of information that makes me think walking the Norte is not such a bad idea...you'll need to scroll to the very end of the post to see the group and their story. It's quite inspirational.
JohnnieWalker, is there any way of getting in touch with them?

 

[Kiwi-family]

Now here's the response to my medical dangers question from our most-trusted medical friend, who typically takes a very conservative line (he's the guy we texted en route to hospital when a daughter collapsed and could not see anything in Cambodia, he's the one we sent through our Spanish x-rays to via phone when T broke her arm - just to get his opinion!). He says regarding kids aged 11/12 walking 20km a day for three months:

Absolutely none, I am sure there were some kids amongst those wandering Israelites. Their legs won't fall off, but I bet they won't want to walk after 2 weeks.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Here's a snippet of information that makes me think walking the Norte is not such a bad idea...you'll need to scroll to the very end of the post to see the group and their story. It's quite inspirational.
JohnnieWalker, is there any way of getting in touch with them?

Hola - what post?

 

[Kiwi-family]

Hola - what post?

Hola and sorry!

http://johnniewalker-santiago.blogspot. ... ek-in.html

the Belgians at the very end

 

[JohnnieWalker]

I understand now. I'm sorry we don't keep contact details. I'll look in the book and see if they left anything.

John

 

[TrishAlexSage]

Throwing in my supportive 2 cents regarding kids and walking --

I'm the mom of two avid long-distance hikers. My girls are 7 and 10, and they'll walk the Camino this March/April, SJPP to Santiago. They've been hiking grown-up sized mountains since they were 4 and 5 years old, some treks as long as 18 (mountain!) miles a day.

My oldest broke her leg doing a routine gymnastic jump a couple of years ago. Her doctor was one of the best pediatric orthopaedists in the USA. While we were seeing him, I asked if kids could be injured walking 10-15+ miles day after day. He said that as long as the child felt comfortable, then no. If the child is complaining and needs to rest, then the child should rest -- if he or she feels fine and wants to continue, then let him/her. In other words, it's safe to go as far as your child wants to go. Kids aren't puppies (puppies shouldn't walk too far when they're young because they can have growth plate issues). Humans evolved walking long distances and kids can handle it -- as long as they feel okay doing so. You can let a child go as far as he/she wants to go. As long as it's the child's choice (and not the parents pushing!), then all should be fine.

Have fun, looking forward to reading about your trip. Wish us luck on ours! We'll be on the Camino in two short months!