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This may be a bit off-topic, but does anyone know how much of the Camino as it exists today, follows (at least closely) the paths and roads taken by pilgrims in the golden age of the pilgrimage back in medieval times?
Jim
I'm not sure that there is any suggestion, let alone evidence for, a pre- Christian pilgrimage to Santiago though there is a long history of Christianisation of pagan sites. My best local example be the church of St Andrew at Alfriston in West Sussex, built on a flint walled mound of far greater age. Suggested by some to be a sacrificial mound where "gifts" could be offered to the river gods of the Cuckmere. (and no I don't mean drowned babies) water sacrifices of items of value, jewellery, swords, metal objects generally were common in the bronze and iron ages. It would have also been a good place to dodge occasional tidal surges, but that's the pragmatists view.
The reverence of springs, fountains, Fuentes is another matter. Many perpetual springs are now sacrified. Access to clean, potable water was crucial to survival. Attribution to God or the gods or their saints for the presence of good water is unsurprising. That wonderful fuente on the Alto Perdon created by Santiago to save the dying pilgrim from temptations of the devil being a classic example. Water, finding it, avoiding it (bridges or fords) or reaching it - Fisterra might be the first sight of the sea, ever, for many pilgrims - is a key element. Fire, the Botafumerio or a bonfire of socks at the lighthouse...
Oh I could get ever so elemental here but I'll stop. Any pagans out there who want to plan a "reclaim the Camino" camino next year please pm me, or maybe don't - I've always had an aversion to organised anything.
"To Santiago" would be anyhow difficult as the only pre-Christian evidence there I know of is the Roman cemetery in that area - which, btw, might have given the by-name Compostela to that place. As for Christianisation of pagan sites, I am always a bit suspicious of that. I try to explain. The explanation I hear often from Pagan friends goes along the lines "The Church usurpated pagan sites of worship." like they did so intentionally (per decree), more likely is that allegiances changed over time, but people still used the same space, because they liked it and were used to it. So not by (Church) decree but by custom did this happen in many cases.
Oh, please keep going being elemental! This is all so interesting for me! BTW I have an aversion to anything 'organised' also, kind of early childhood trauma - being born in Germany ;-) SY
PS I was always fascinated by the tinkers/travellers that passed our area when I lived in the UK. Never was courageous enough to approach them as I didn't wanted to disturb their privacy, but there was always a tiny voice in me saying - that are your kind of people ...
My brother in law who is a priest and a very "black and white no grey areas" type told me during a discussion of Christianisation of pagan sites that it was policy to bring any community into the Christian church to take over their holy places and make them Christian holy places. It made conversion easier and after a few generations people had forgotten the origins of healing wells etc and considered them holy wells names after Christian saints
If you knew this guy SY you wouldn't even ask that question, he is one of the most historicaly knowledgeable people I have ever met on matters religous. It was one of his degree subjects.But did that, historically, really happen that way or is / was that more a case of wishful thinking? SY
I would still argue with him over this, I am not clueless about that subject either ;-) SYIf you knew this guy SY you wouldn't even ask that question, he is one of the most historicaly knowledgeable people I have ever met on matters religous. It was one of his degree subjects.
Wishful thinking, they are still our sites, they've just got visitors
Wishful thinking, they are still our sites, they've just got visitors
@newfydog you said that with such a straight face I almost thought you were thereHere a picture I took of them building one, and what it looked like when I returned 2100 years later.
I just can't help myself..........it has been said that the pre Christians headed to Santiago,because it was thought to be the where the world ended.....why go west,why not go east,into the rising sun ? A lot of pagans were sun worshippers........why not go south,north?........just a thought...........Vicrev
I just can't help myself..........it has been said that the pre Christians headed to Santiago,because it was thought to be the where the world ended.....why go west,why not go east,into the rising sun ? A lot of pagans were sun worshippers........why not go south,north?........just a thought...........Vicrev
I just can't help myself..........it has been said that the pre Christians headed to Santiago,because it was thought to be the where the world ended.....why go west,why not go east,into the rising sun ? A lot of pagans were sun worshippers........why not go south,north?........just a thought...........Vicrev
Isn't it great to see people having a discussion, about such volatile subjects as Religion & Paganism ( what a mix) without getting all uptight & nasty !!...You people are a credit to this Forum.................thank you all for the information you have given me (& others).....I have lots of questions on this ,but I might wait a while & PM people ( that's if they don't mind )...... ........keep smiling........Vicrev
When I was working on archaeological digs as a volunteer back in the day( yes I am ancient & at times feel it) the dig directors always said......." find me three stones in a row & I will find you a pre civilization under it"...... Have there been, or, are there any digs in Santiago & if so does anybody know what was found & what period was it attributed to ?................keep smiling..........Vicrev
Obviously the cathedral floor has been dug up, and what was found where the remains of a Roman cemetery that belonged to a Roman mansion dating back to the 1st century AD. The area of Santiago itself wasn't heavily settled before the discovery of the tomb as far as I know. More important settlements were, for example, in Iria Flavia (Bishop See for the area and port) and Wikipedia to the rescue - all these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Galicia
I am alsways delighted that Ancient Civilizations has the good sense to build their ruins near excellent transport infrastructure.
Out of interest has there ever been any excavation of the tomb? And is the tomb as it stands today the original building incorporated into cathedral or a later crypt? I remember seeing a very good animation on the origins of the site, the Roman cemetery, the tomb, the various other burials within the chamber and how the caskets/sarcophagi moved around over the years. Just wondering how it related to the crypt as it is today as it was difficult to see the similarity after centuries of building work. I think it was on the cathedral website.
Relating to the discussion of takeover of pagan sites by Christian decree...didn't the church take control of markets..making them take place on church property to help with the conversion process...town folk became Christians, people of the heath not hence heathen?
... ,at times on this Forum it has been stated the pilgrims were following pre Christian tracks.........why did the pre Christians go to Santiago ?............what reason did they use any of the Camino tracks ?.....
Salt - in England there are still many roads called Whiteway - from the days when there were salt caravan routes, and part of a Roman Legionaries pay was in salt, from which we now have 'salary' - this is all such good stuff!
As for Christianisation of pagan sites, I am always a bit suspicious of that. I try to explain. The explanation I hear often from Pagan friends goes along the lines "The Church usurpated pagan sites of worship." like they did so intentionally (per decree), more likely is that allegiances changed over time, but people still used the same space, because they liked it and were used to it. So not by (Church) decree but by custom did this happen in many cases.
Its important to remember that the process of Christianizing indigenous practices isn't an either/or proposition of the Church imposing or the local people adopting...for example, my parish has had a number of Nigerian priest who come from a culture that was predominately Animist in recent memory. As both local peoples and representatives of the Church, they tend to encourage those local practices that are compatible with the faith and discourage those that aren't--sometimes with explicit advice coming from Rome and often not.My comment in the thread- "Rules and Standards on the Camino: Do they exist? Should they?" reminded me of this thread!
Back in the day, one of my tutors suggested that, because of my interest, I should write a "paper" on Syncretism in the Church in Britain". Needless to say, I never got round to it being too busy doing, rather than thinking.However I do remember that one of the letters from Pope Gregory to Abbot Mellitus A.D. 601 (to be passed on to St. Augustine) contained directions to the effect that - "the temples of the idols in that country (England) should on no account be destroyed. . . . . For if the temples are well built, they are to be purified from devil-worship, and dedicated to the service of the true God. . . ."
Certainly there are a number of ancient sites where there is evidence of pagan worship which have been "Christianized". Rudston in East Yorkshire is a prime example, where the giant monolith in the churchyard was Christianized as the "Rood Stone".
Our Pagan friends have a point!
Blessings
Tio Tel
...What I just posted using too many words because I decided to reply before I finished reading the thread...sighLets just agree that both approaches did/do exist ;-) Human behaviour is rarely either-or but most of the time a mixture of both. Buen Camino, SY
Hi @Tincatinker! I know this thread is rather old already, but would you be able to share some of the "hard-core academic stuff" you found? I've found a lot of non-academic sources, which I had posted in this thread: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/janus-to-venus.32261/#post-1003211So glad to see this thread still running nicely. SY's re-stating of the OP is maybe timely too. Maybe a re-visit: "pilgrims were following pre Christian tracks". Well sections of, say, the Pilgrims' Way in the UK certainly follow ancient chalk ridgeway tracks but only because they are there and going in the desired direction of travel. As SY has said, the Camino routes have meandered across the landscape in search of easy, safe passage and indeed as modern motorways have been built along those desirable routes the blessed pilgrim has been guided to the by-ways and quieter routes by the negotiating skills and yellow paint brushes of the amigos and associations. Those who have walked the Calzada Romana can be confident they have followed an ancient pilgrim route and indeed occasionally stepped on the very stones our forebears sandals kissed. When I walk The Ridgeway from Ivinghoe Beacon to Avebury and the other Wiltshire Henges I'm following a pre-historic "motorway" a trade route and drove-way and, who knows perhaps a route of pilgrimage for those making their way to the Neolithic temples that scatter the Wiltshire landscape.
"Why did the pre-christians go to Santiago" - they probably didn't. I can't find much on the pre-history of Galicia other than dear old Wikipedia, some snippets in the Labrinthos site www.labyrinthos.net and some hard-core academic stuff, but there are no obvious direct links. They probably walked right on past, at least until the Romans started all that "improving" of the infrastructure. I believe the destination, if it was such, was "World's End", the "Costa del Muerte".
This thread has given me a nudge for what this winter's home-work might be though. The myth is out there...
Absolutely! I haven't had time to contribute the last couple of days, but I have been thoroughly enjoying reading this thread.
When I started at this forum a couple of months ago, I was roundly spanked for making the mere suggestion of pagan influences on the Camino. I almost quit this place after less than a week. I'm so happy I stuck around, and so pleased with the positive tone and enthusiastic discussion.
Thanks for all the interesting input here! Can I suggest though, that the discussion not move to PM's? This is all of public interest for those inclined to click on the thread in the first place. I don't want to miss out!
cheers all,
Adrienne
They didn't, given that it did not exist.why did the pre Christians go to Santiago ?
Stonehenge long predates the druids.Well, if for example the druids at Stonehenge and similar places
Only some Roman roads were like that -- generally, near towns and cities ; and where terrain requirements mandated it.The Romans made an amazing network of well engineered roads. When the pilgrimage started, there had been little long distance travel through the dark ages, and the Roman roads were still the best routes available.
Here a picture I took of them building one, and what it looked like when I returned 2100 years later.
View attachment 6732
AFAIK it's a "new" tradition started by modern pilgrims (and frowned upon locally).I know that todays interpretation of burning the clothes or shoes at Finisterre is as symbol of casting off the old and starting anew, but maybe it came from slaying and burning animals (or humans in some cultures) in pre Christian ages???
I don't think anyone disputes that there were journeys that pre-date Christianity.I'm beginning to find out that suggesting there may have been journeys that pre-date the Christian Camino route is a touchy subject in this forum
I think this explains it perfectly. It's true Santiago as the city did not exist at the time that Celts or other ancient peoples would be at Finisterre (although archaeologist have found numerous ancient artifacts from Celtic and Roman times underneath the city of Santiago, so there seems to have been some settlements there).My understanding is that the pre Christians did not walk to Santiago but to The End of the Earth, Finisterra, where they believed the souls of their dead went where the sun sets. That is why some pilgrims still make that journey to Finisterra and wait at the lighthouse for the sun to set. It was also traditional for pilgrims to burn their clothes here as a way of casting off the old and starting anew. In reality they probably burned them because they were lice and bedbug ridden.
Frowned upon locally? In what way? The municipalities of both Fisterra and Muxia offer their own certificates (Fisterrana and Muxiana) to pilgrim's who end there.... have you experience distaste from locals when going there?Stonehenge long predates the druids.
Only some Roman roads were like that -- generally, near towns and cities ; and where terrain requirements mandated it.
But most of them were dirt tracks -- though these too often involved engineering work.
AFAIK it's a "new" tradition started by modern pilgrims (and frowned upon locally).
The tradition in the Middle Ages was to cleanse yourself at Lavacolla, and then walk into Santiago refreshed and renewed. They then piled their hiking staves into large mounds in front of the Cathedral -- and from time to time, the city authorities would burn these mounds.
I think it is the burning things which is frowned upon, not visitors generally.Frowned upon locally? In what way? The municipalities of both Fisterra and Muxia offer their own certificates (Fisterrana and Muxiana) to pilgrim's who end there.... have you experience distaste from locals when going there?
Quite.I think it is the burning things which is frowned upon, not visitors generally.
Well, that I can definitely understand. In addition to being a nuisance to the community, I find the "burning" aspect really wasteful too.I think it is the burning things which is frowned upon, not visitors generally.
@cj330 www.labyrinthos.net has an excellent bibliography and can lead you down a thousand rabbit holes.Hi @Tincatinker! I know this thread is rather old already, but would you be able to share some of the "hard-core academic stuff" you found? I've found a lot of non-academic sources, which I had posted in this thread: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/janus-to-venus.32261/#post-1003211
Would love to read up on academic findings.
Also would appreciate some input on this subject from anyone who commented here, and @Caplen I share you concern for attitudes here.... I'm beginning to find out that suggesting there may have been journeys that pre-date the Christian Camino route is a touchy subject in this forum
Nobody is saying that it wouldn't be as valid an experience. Whether it is a "Camino" or not depends on whether you consider "Camino" to be a short form of "Camino de Santiago de Compostela". By definition, surely the "Camino" ends in Santiago, no matter what your spiritual inclination.I think this is just as a valid of a "Camino" as the traditional one ending in Santiago
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