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I have only stayed in donativos a couple go times. I think intuitively I know what is reasonable but just pretty much put in what the average price is for a bed and then similar for food. Guess it would total up to €25-30 ish.
I do prefer to pay a predetermined rate but understand there is a broader picture. To be honest I have never been a big fan of ‘pay what you can afford’ as I guess I come from a culture where if you can’t afford something, or raise the funds to do so, then you don’t do it! I don’t mean essentials like food and housing, but ‘extras’ such as Camino travel, etc. I don’t mind paying a a good price but don’t like the ideas of others playing less! Just the way I am. Others will see things differently!
I guess it a bit like tipping. Much sooner pay a fixed service charge, or ‘free’ city tours!
don’t like the ideas of others playing less!
Sure appreciate many people won’t agree! Without diving in to deep ‘what you can afford’ is quite flexible concept!! Is it just the money in your pocket, and your ability to get credit to be able to pay… etc!I agree with everything you said but for...
I get the sentiment.... but it's kinda like walking 800 km and getting the same Compostela as someone who walks 100 km. I had to reconcile myself to Matthew 20:1-16.
It probably doesn't work for everyone but, after several walks? Well, it works for me.
B
Actually not at all. With donations there are no expectations. It's a different paradigm altogether. Generosity without strings attached, rather than a gratuity for service rendered. And not payment. Donativo is neither transactional nor contractual. - and if those things are all you know, it's not easy to understand. But just be generous. It's actually not that hard.I guess it a bit like tipping.
I am a very generous person. Alway have been.Actually not at all. With donations there are no expectations. It's a different aradigm altogether. Generosity without strings attached, and not a gratuity for service rendered. And not payment. Donattivo is not transactional nor contractual. - and if all you know only that it's not easy to understand. But just be generous. It's actually not that hard.
Questions on the forum usually generate a wide variety of responses. Not here. The answer to your question would seem to be either a 'yes or a 'no'. The question was "Is this amount reasonable?", not "Is this amount generous?" I would say yes to the first and no to the second. Is anyone in a position to tell us what donativos actually do receive per head?Given all the inflation of the past couple years, do you (especially those with hospitalero experience) think that the following are reasonable amounts to leave when staying at a donativo on the VDLP….
Well said. Recently we spent time living for some months in France in a town on the Camino Le Puy. We volunteered with the local donativo gite presbytere. There was a sign in French with information about the gite, which I translated for them into an English version. The sign stated upfront and strongly that all were welcome irrespective of whether or not they were able to donate. There was then information about time of vespers for those who wanted to attend, dinner, lights out, breakfast etc. And later a paragraph that for those who were able to pay but not knowing what amount to offer ...Hospitaler@s are strictly forbidden to stipulate or suggest an amount that should be donated. But we are allowed to explain to pilgrims that donativos do not run on air: they have to pay their bills and maintain the building and facilities just like everyone else. If you stay in an albergue, it exists and provides simply because the pilgrims who arrived before you have donated. If you do not donate, the albergue will cease to exist. So, if you stay in an albergue, think about the market cost of what you are being given, remember that not everyone who stays there can afford to pay as much as you, and act as your heart and head tell you.
Agreed. Sort of guidance I would appreciate as not a donativo regular!When we stay in donativo albergues, we give at least what we would in a non-donativo albergue, on the basis that others who come before or after may not be able to.
Well said. Recently we spent time living for some months in France in a town on the Camino Le Puy. We volunteered with the local donativo gite presbytere. There was a sign in French with information about the gite, which I translated for them into an English version. The sign stated upfront and strongly that all were welcome irrespective of whether or not they were able to donate. There was then information about time of vespers for those who wanted to attend, dinner, lights out, breakfast etc. And later a paragraph that for those who were able to pay but not knowing what amount to offer ...
'Our volunteer hospitaliers and managers give their time and care freely, but the maintenance of the gite and offering of meals comes at a cost. We estimate the minimum cost for dinner, overnight stay and breakfast is around 22 euros per pilgrim.'
For me, that would be an absolute minimum to contribute. But I thought this was a useful and sensitive way to give some context to those staying in the gite who could afford to pay but wondering how much to contribute. The donation box was entirely 'private'. There was no way of knowing who had contributed what.
Yes, but for me this is an absolute minimum - just covering costs if everyone were able to donate. That’s why we pay at least what we would in a typical non donativo albergue, and usually more.Agreed. Sort of guidance I would appreciate as not a donativo regular!
Yes agreed. A minimum is great and knowing this I would certainly pay above as I am able to at this point in my life. To me that say something like €35 plus loose €1 coins!Yes, but for me this is an absolute minimum - just covering costs if everyone were able to donate. That’s why we pay at least what we would in a typical non donativo albergue, and usually more.
I believe economists have a technical term for it: ´the tragedy of the commons´ (nothing to do with the house of). There are some who do, indeed, pay less than they should. If that is a reason for you or I to pay no more than the bare minimum, who suffers? The fact that some pay less (whether out of greed or need) is all the more reason for the rest of us to pay more so that the albergue can survive.Yes agreed. A minimum is great and knowing this I would certainly pay above as I am able to at this point in my life. To me that say something like €35 plus loose €1 coins!
I’m just not happy with the number of folks that leave very little, and can afford too, which seem to be a fair few!! I don’t really see that in any other aspects of my life but many on Camino seem to be always on ‘the take’!!!
You probably can’t say or won’t say, and I understand that, and I hope it’s not rude to ask but do you or anyone have any thoughts or what an average ‘take’ would be for a night. I know it would vary of course but for say 10 beds with a ‘value’ of say ‘€22 per bed’ would you expect to exceed that on most ocassions?As an experienced hospitalera, I have always been most comfortable in those albergues where I could not see the amount that any pilgrim put in the box (for example, a slit in the wall to which I had no key, and would tell pilgrims to insert what they could when I was not present). But I have sometimes felt quite concerned that the donativos where I volunteered would have to close for lack of funds. To respond to the original question, I have, when a pilgrim, asked myself the same question and generally concluded by finding myself with the same answer.
Generally speaking, the hospi does not know how much goes into the donativo box. It is usually a representative of the parish or local community who comes and empties it.You probably can’t say or won’t say, and I understand that, and I hope it’s not rude to ask but do you or anyone have any thoughts or what an average ‘take’ would be for a night. I know it would vary of course but for say 10 beds with a ‘value’ of say ‘€22 per bed’ would you expect to exceed that on most ocassions?
Yes I see that and you are right, there is clearly a bigger picture. I always pay my way. It’s for the greater good! I just see a lot of freeloaders, and I wish we didn’t make it so easy for them!!I believe economists have a technical term for it: ´the tragedy of the commons´ (nothing to do with the house of). There are some who do, indeed, pay less than they should. If that is a reason for you or I to pay no more than the bare minimum, who suffers? The fact that some pay less (whether out of greed or need) is all the more reason for the rest of us to pay more so that the albergue can survive.
I’m just not happy with the number of folks that leave very little, and can afford too, which seem to be a fair few!!
Well done you! You are a far better person than me!!’I have no idea. I put a fair bit of energy into not knowing. Just once, I saw a young man put one coin in the payment slot, then go across the road to a restaurant and buy an expensive dinner. I am still working at not making that any of my business. I tell myself that he might have to walk on that meal for the day.
Yes 100% agree. Was on a day tour yesterday with someone I didn’t know. We agreed a fee of $1 each for a quick tour of something. She refused after agreeing to pay saying she couldn’t afford it. Well maybe she couldn’t, maybe the airfare had cleaned her out, or the DKNY shades. It’s tiny money,, I paid the full amount, and paid extra to compensate for her. I paid 3 times her amount. The money was irrelevant and tiny but it still riled me.I understand your frustration. Many years ago a wise friend said to me ‘you can only take care of your side of the street’. It was in a very different context, but I’ve found wisdom in this saying in many aspects of life, especially when wishing the actions of others were different.
I am a very generous person. Alway have been.
… but I get annoyed by people who can pay and won’t. Sure we have all been on the ‘free city tours’ that last a few hours and seen the couple with the designer clothes and the expensive camera offer up a few coins!
We see a lot on here about how little is often in the donativo box. So something is amiss. In my few stays many put virtually nothing in, many confessing to as little as €5. Maybe all these wonderful and humble pilgrims are not so wonderful after all! It strikes me as shocking given the demographic walking.
Oh, boy - actually on this we see completely eye to eye!We are never going to agree
Thus came from a 1968 paper in Science by Gerrett Hardin, describing how (in his view) common use of a resource inevitably causes that resource to collapse. Hardin was a singularly flawed person, taking some completely valid points about overpopulation and limited resources into very dark places. And many of his conclusions were based on flawed assumptions and have since been resoundingly refuted.´the tragedy of the commons´
Ha ha I made a similar comment on this forum and was called all sorts of nasty namesOn any other forum I would probably say that a person should maybe take a broader look at life and earn some money and to contribute, rather than expect others to pick up the slack,
That can be a tricky one. On my first Camino there were several occasions when my drink or my meal was 'on the house' or anonymously paid for by another customer. Also a couple of times when I was invited to join a family or group of friends at their table rather than eat alone then not be allowed to pay my share of the bill. I had to learn to accept the gift graciously. An even bigger issue when walking the Shikoku 88 temple circuit where the concept of making gifts in kind or in acts of service to pilgrims is deeply embedded - so much so that it has a name: ossetai. Culturally very important to accept the gift and acknowledge it properly. Initially a little embarrassing for someone determined to be independent and not reliant on others.On the flip side I don’t like people paying for me. I grew up very poor but even then it wasn’t ‘the thing’.
Yes totally agree. I can think of a few instances that has happened to me. An American couple who I sat with in the restaurant car on the train from Chicago to San Francisco. They left the table before me and when I paid my bill it looked low but they had picked up the wine! Samilarly in others parts of the world I have been invited to join a table a few times. They left before me and had paid my bill. Folks from USA and South America seem to do this a lot. It’s a nice feeling. I don’t think I saw any of them again which made it easier as I would have driven them mad saying thank you and looking to pay for stuff!That can be a tricky one. On my first Camino there were several occasions when my drink or my meal was 'on the house' or anonymously paid for by another customer. Also a couple of times when I was invited to join a family or group of friends at their table rather than eat alone then not be allowed to pay my share of the bill. I had to learn to accept the gift graciously. An even bigger issue when walking the Shikoku 88 temple circuit where the concept of making gifts in kind or in acts of service to pilgrims is deeply embedded - so much so that it has a name: ossetai. Culturally very important to accept the gift and acknowledge it properly. Initially a little embarrassing for someone determined to be independent and not reliant on others.
Yes I gave €25 or so, thinking it was quite generous based on hearing what other folks were saying but I would defo raise that to €35-40 so as long as the Vino Tinto was half decent!I think i gave 20€ in my only Donativo in 2022. And that was including dinner. At that time, i seen it as "just another basic albergue".
In the time since, having read and thought about it more, i got a better understanding... or maybe a different perspective.
To cut things short, next time (whenever that may be) it would very likely be double that.
If the Camino was full of folks from the world’s poor countries I would see it differently!
It would be good to hear from folks on here who feel that can’t afford to pay. Not in an accusatory way, but just for balance! I appreciate it a ‘big ask’ but we only hear from folks on here who can afford to pay. I have only done 3 caminos, maybe 80 days of walking but have yet to see people who are struggling financially
That person who seems fine, and has a nice pack and shoes, we later may find has had a really tough life.
Has recently gone through hell and back.
Their gear is borrowed or from a charity shop.
And they were only able to walk a Camino with the support of family and friends.
And they have to be careful with every cent.
Yes, but, Donativo's rely on such amazing people like yourself to be able to then cater to those who cannot afford to be so generous.I have only stayed at donativos a couple of times on my many Caminos, and purposely avoid them as I feel uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if I am generous, but rather that I am taking advantage of a system that has been set up and intended for those who struggle financially to make their way towards Santiago.
Interesting point you make, @davejsy. It's actually a bit of a conundrum then to me.Yes, but, Donativo's rely on such amazing people like yourself to be able to then cater to those who cannot afford to be so generous.
Certainly nothing tongue in cheek, and I think your very reason for not staying in Donativos is evidence of that you are indeed a very nice person.Interesting point you make, @davejsy. It's actually a bit of a conundrum then to me.If only financially needy persons stayed in the donativos, there would be no additional funds to provide the next day's communal dinner.
P.S. I am not an amazing person and assume you say it tongue in cheek.
No, not all people who stay with us are financially needy. Of course some are on limited means, but most are just normal people with an average budget who were looking to have a more simple pilgrimage.Interesting point you make, @davejsy. It's actually a bit of a conundrum then.If only financiallyneedy persons stayed in the donativos, there would be no additional funds to provide the next day's communal dinner.
I've met quite a few pilgrims (from eastern European countries for example, but not only) who were on a very low budget. They still knew how to get along because they were used to getting by with little money. Always in the cheapest albergues even if it meant walking longer days, some even wild camping, cheap supermarket food, cold food when albergue had no kitchen, no pilgrim's menu of course.
These people do exist, even though you might not notice them.
I guess when you're on a low budget yourself, you tend to meet / notice them more?
They probably won't be in the fancy private albergues and not in the restaurants eating a 15€ pilgrims menu...
Poverty is highly stigmatized, so of course people try to hide it, and that's probably why you won't get many statements from those who struggle financially.
I've walked on a low budget and had days with only peanuts or bread and cheese as my main dinner. My budget was still much higher than that of some others I met!
I remember one day in the Ponferrada albergue, that was on my first Camino, I had cooked myself a simple dinner of pasta and chickpeas. Had made a bit more than I needed. The hospitaleros approached me and said, a very poor peregrina had just checked in and was very hungry, and if I'd share my meal with her, maybe? She was too embarrased to ask for herself and apparently couldn't even afford a meal. You wouldn't have known when you looked at her.
So, yes, there are people who can't afford to make a donation at all, and there are also many who can afford to make a small donation only. You won't know just by looking at them.
As Robo wrote:
Thank you very much for this insight! I must admit I was starting to wonder if the ‘donativo model’ was still valid as I was wondering if there is still a significant number of folks walking that were struggling financially. You have reassured me there are. I am happy to put whatever in the box, but want to support those that need it as opposed to ‘freeloaders’ I appreciate you have shared to personal info too! Hope things are good for you.I've met quite a few pilgrims (from eastern European countries for example, but not only) who were on a very low budget. They still knew how to get along because they were used to getting by with little money. Always in the cheapest albergues even if it meant walking longer days, some even wild camping, cheap supermarket food, cold food when albergue had no kitchen, no pilgrim's menu of course.
These people do exist, even though you might not notice them.
I guess when you're on a low budget yourself, you tend to meet / notice them more?
They probably won't be in the fancy private albergues and not in the restaurants eating a 15€ pilgrims menu...
Poverty is highly stigmatized, so of course people try to hide it, and that's probably why you won't get many statements from those who struggle financially.
I've walked on a low budget and had days with only peanuts or bread and cheese as my main dinner. My budget was still much higher than that of some others I met!
I remember one day in the Ponferrada albergue, that was on my first Camino, I had cooked myself a simple dinner of pasta and chickpeas. Had made a bit more than I needed. The hospitaleros approached me and said, a very poor peregrina had just checked in and was very hungry, and if I'd share my meal with her, maybe? She was too embarrased to ask for herself and apparently couldn't even afford a meal. You wouldn't have known when you looked at her.
So, yes, there are people who can't afford to make a donation at all, and there are also many who can afford to make a small donation only. You won't know just by looking at them.
As Robo wrote:
I have enjoyed numerous similar, shared experiences staying in non-donativo albergues on the Camino.It isn't always about the cost, but sometimes simply about enjoying hospitality and a shared experience. If you've never enjoyed that on a Camino at a donativo, I am sad.
Hi Chrissy. I sort of felt the same way to start with. I am by no means wealthy, and felt a built guilty splashing out for a 2** pension when I needed a break on my first Camino. I started my Portuguese Camino in a lovely donavito in Porto. There were still beds available when I went to sleep and I happily left a reasonable donation in the morning. I would argue that we shouldn't feel guilty for using the donavito, in the place of someone less well off, as without those of us who have the means to pay something, those beautiful places would not be available for those struggling on an even tighter budget.I have only stayed at donativos a couple of times on my many Caminos, and purposely avoid them as I feel uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if I am generous, but rather that I am taking advantage of a system that has been set up and intended for those who struggle financially to make their way towards Santiago.
In a world where every little hiccup we utter gets posted on social media, having this one private transaction between yourself and your spirit (maybe some would say conscience) is challenging yet so rewarding in the end.
I am a very generous person. Alway have been.
… but I get annoyed by people who can pay and won’t. Sure we have all been on the ‘free city tours’ that last a few hours and seen the couple with the designer clothes and the expensive camera offer up a few coins!
We see a lot on here about how little is often in the donativo box. So something is amiss. In my few stays many put virtually nothing in, many confessing to as little as €5. Maybe all these wonderful and humble pilgrims are not so wonderful after all! It strikes me as shocking given the demographic walking.
We are never going to agree and that’s fine but cutting to the chase, I just don’t accept that there are many people waling a Camino that cannot put €15-20 and pay their way. If the Camino was full of folks from the world’s poor countries I would see it differently!
Janet, that is a beautiful, concise and all-embracing summary of the Donativo ethic.Only you have to be happy with your donation.
I am not sure why you think that. I have probably spent 2 nights in a donativo in about 80 camino nights, probably because there was no alternative. I have have never stayed in a private room on a Camino. I can’t afford it. I have no fixed abode, no car, no job, no access to credit, and no partner. Not great for the Tinder profile. I probably spend 250 nights a year in hostels, dorms in Europe, but maybe a private room in the cheaper parts of the world. I am currently in a nice private room for USD6 a night. I have a relatively small amount of money to manage. Please elaborate?This post (along with the many others by you) make it very obvious that you are very able to pay whatever amount and stay where ever it pleases you.
I am very confused why you would be staying in a donativo in any event unless it is the only available bed within reasonable walking distance.
You will be taking up a bed that a tight budget pilgrim will urgently need.
I never stay in donativos unless the volume of pilgrims is low or it is the only alternative. When busy I use pensions and leave the lower cost accommondation for others.
I think this is a misconception of the origin and purpose of the donativos. Places like Refugio Gaucelmo in Rabanal and the other long-lived donativos were not set up principally for the impoverished - they often filled major gaps in provision where there was no private alternative and were meant for all to use. It took quite some time before there were enough private albergues or hostals for that to be a reliable alternative in all places. In the case of Refugio Gaucelmo there were no private rooms or even a basic refugio between Astorga and Molinaseca before it opened.but rather that I am taking advantage of a system that has been set up and intended for those who struggle financially to make their way towards Santiago.
As several people have already written, the donativo albergues need the donations of more affluent pilgrims to allow them to serve those of lesser means. Perhaps you should consider staying in one to help their cash flow.I am very confused why you would be staying in a donativo in any event unless it is the only available bed within reasonable walking distance.
You will be taking up a bed that a tight budget pilgrim will urgently need.
I never stay in donativos unless the volume of pilgrims is low or it is the only alternative. When busy I use pensions and leave the lower cost accommondation for others
In donativos, those who can afford to give more than what they consume or use are crucial as they will pay also to release some of the burden for those who are on a very tight budget or can hardly afford anything. Hence in donativos you do not pay for what you get, but you donate according to what you are willing to.
. I would argue that we shouldn't feel guilty for using the donavito, in the place of someone less well off, as without those of us who have the means to pay something, those beautiful places would not be available for those struggling on an even tighter budget.
I prefer not to stay at donativos as I'd like to pay a reasonable fixed amount and not have to guess. My last Camino was a few years ago. Regarding the Compostela, I have no issues with the distances. In fact, sometimes I don't even get a Compostela after finishing a Camino. I walk for other reasons rather than a Compostela.I agree with everything you said but for...
I get the sentiment.... but it's kinda like walking 800 km and getting the same Compostela as someone who walks 100 km. I had to reconcile myself to Matthew 20:1-16.
It probably doesn't work for everyone but, after several walks? Well, it works for me.
B
Of course, when one leaves donativos solely for those who cannot afford to leave a donation, that ensures that some donativos will not receive the funds they need to operate and will in future be available to no one. This also serves to more thoroughly segregate pilgrims by economic class every night.I am very confused why you would be staying in a donativo in any event unless it is the only available bed within reasonable walking distance.
You will be taking up a bed that a tight budget pilgrim will urgently need.
And importantly, that all who stay there are treated equally, regardless of how how much they are able to contribute.Personally, I like the idea of all sorts of pilgrims mixing in donativos, each giving according to their means, with the more financially well-off pilgrims offsetting and subsidizing the pilgrims less able to afford a donation. YMMV, of course, and you are free to sleep where you wish and avoid donativos as much as you like
I must admit that I find that kind of approach hard to resist and, perhaps, something I use to set a minimum. But I am well aware of the downward spiral effect that this can have. So if the albergue likes to provide a meal but has a day or few days with really low donations and has to dispense with the meal or make it really skimpy, then that will be reflected in future donations of a transactional nature and the baseline and level of hospitality will be set to a lower level. And so on.I suppose I'm an outlier as I view this transactionally depending on what's on offer in the donativo, while understanding that I'm enjoying what was gifted by someone else and my gift will support someone tomorrow.
So... 15 to 20 for bed and shower
15 to 20 for a hot meal, along with me providing desert or wine for everyone within reason.
5 to 10 for breakfast
10 for laundry or access to washing machine/dryer
Add more if there's an honours fridge with drinks, alcoholic or not, and the number of drinks I consume.
I count and put a value on everything, it's a professional side effect. Sad, I know.
The Camino is itself a great equaliser. At the end of the day, we are all grubby, sweaty, weary pilgrims. I certainly couldn’t estimate other people’s financial or social position and wouldn’t want to know if they have paid more or less than I have for the privilege of staying in a donativo.And importantly, that all who stay there are treated equally, regardless of how how much they are able to contribute.
But then again, this is how the larger part of our world works, so it is naturally the very first reflex. Even in me who knows better.I'm amazed, and depressed, by how often this thread has been led into the world of comparative value (what do I get for my hard-earned money) or worse still that inherited sense of entitlement that produces a cost/benefit calculation to every interaction: What do I get?
The question was "What do I give?" and the answer is whatever you can love, whatever you can.
I think the problem with good old Matthew in the modern world is that the next day, no-one would turn up to work for the landowner till 5. But I'm a cynic lol.I agree with everything you said but for...
I get the sentiment.... but it's kinda like walking 800 km and getting the same Compostela as someone who walks 100 km. I had to reconcile myself to Matthew 20:1-16.
It probably doesn't work for everyone but, after several walks? Well, it works for me.
B
That is amazing budgeting!!! 25 euros a day is excellent. Congratulations!I just came back from the Camino with a group of college students. I budgeted 25 euros per day for meal and albergue and was able to buy breakfast supplies (hardboiled eggs, yogurt, rolls, oranges) and at least one hot meal a day either prepared together or eating in a restaurant). It can be done. Some days we spent more and others less.
Edit:Sarria to Santiago in winter so not a lot of options open to spend your money.
I disagree.... with the above and many other things posted in this thread.SNIP....
There was a time, which I can remember, when this attitude was prevalent and all pilgrims who could afford to were encouraged to sleep in hotels. That is no longer the case. Many now see the "traditional pilgrim hospitality" as practiced in donativo albergues as something that should be available to all pilgrims. That was certainly something that was communicated last weekend in the hospitalero training I took to serve in donativo albergues. Many of us find the ambiente in donativos wonderful and the experience much preferrable to sleeping in a hotel room...
I am surprised that the many posts here in the forum, during the spring and summer. about the bed races and the need to book ahead don't count toward "hearing story after story" about people being turned away. I personally have talked with many who simply cannot walk without the assistance of the donativo albergues.Snip....
If I was hearing story after story of poor pilgrims being turned away from donativos, I might change my opinions, but I haven't been reading those stories.
When I walked in winter there were few pilgrims but several deliberately sought out the donativotos to avoit paying anything. I would always whack in a bit more than I would have been paying at a private albergue.Given all the inflation of the past couple years, do you (especially those with hospitalero experience) think that the following are reasonable amounts to leave when staying at a donativo on the VDLP?
- bed only, with no additional services: €10
- bed with breakfast: €15
- bed with dinner: €20
I really (really) don't want to get into a debate about donativos, I just want to know if leaving these amounts in 2024 would be seen as reasonable by the hospitalero working there. In particular when dinner is involved - is €10 a reasonable amount to include for dinner? That's less than what a pilgrim menu generally costs so perhaps it's too little.
I understand it's up to each person, and there are many variables. I didn't use any donativos last year, but I'm walking on more of a budget this year and hope to stay at a few (not just for budgetary reasons, I also just want to experience it).
Thanks for your yes/no thoughts.
C'mon. You have chosen to interpret @David Tallan's thoughtful comments in an very unkind way, and throw them back. This approach to communication is not constructive.You can decide that "need of others " is topped by "traditional pilgrim hospitality" if you care to.
Thanks for sharing. Gosh €3 per person. I find that quite staggering. Well done for persevering and thankfully driving bigger donations. It’s does feel astonishing low, especially if people such as those on here are always giving quite a lot more!Actually when you have a tasty satisfying meal and make pilgrims feel welcome, they almost always give a little more. I always cater to people's preferences and and that also helps. For example, if you have a lot of French and German pilgrims you need to have real butter with jam and/or honey and not just margarine or oil and tomato spread at breakfast. You should also try to have a little cheese for breakfast when you have a lot of French or German pilgrims. You don't have to put out a big platter, just a few slices on a plate that you can replentish if needed. Spanish pilgrims often just wolf down their dry toast and a cup of coffee and are on their way, but that isn't everyone's breakfast choice. If someone asks for hummus, I whip some up and it is always eaten up even by the non-vegans and vegetarians. Cola Cao on hand is another popular item and it doesn't cost that much to buy a big container of it. Making pilgrims feel special is what hospitality is about. It isn't about making them feel ashamed because they are on a tight or non-existent budget. It is about making the place feel as much like home for the short time they are there. It encourages other people to ask about volunteering when they have the experience of hospitality so there is a method to my madness.
When we started volunteering in 2017 we were told that 3 euros per person was the average donation. At Granon in 2018 we were told not to count the money as we would be discouraged... In Estella in 2019 our contact was thrilled that we were bringing in an average of 6 euros per pilgrim. This year in Arres we had an average donation of about 15 euros per person for a bed, breakfast, supper at an albergue with an awesome view in a quaint town. It all evens out. I am a thrifty shopper and a good cook and we were still able to take money to the bank for deposits even when cooking a bountiful meal and I always tell pilgrims that the bounty was made possible from the pilgrims who came before them... This is not everyone's experience, but it is mine.
Yes, keep in mind in that year albergues on the Meseta were charging only 4-6 Euros though.Thanks for sharing. Gosh €3 per person. I find that quite staggering. Well done for persevering and thankfully driving bigger donations. It’s does feel astonishing low, especially if people such as those on here are always giving quite a lot more!
If more people understood this, there would probably be much more going into the donativo box.I always tell pilgrims that the bounty was made possible from the pilgrims who came before them
It is such a joyful thing to do, being generous without an agenda or strings attached! Our culture doesn't teach us this, and we think happiness comes from getting and having stuff instead. We've got it backwardsAnd giving blindly - to those nameless people who come after me - makes me happy.
My opinions are not based only what I heard in training. What I heard in training is relevant as to the prevalent attitude among those actually running donativo albergues. If you have a better source I am open, of course, to hearing it. In terms of the prevalent attitudes among pilgrims, I am basing it on the attitudes expressed in these forums, in which I spend a fair amount of time, and on the Camino itself, as experienced in over seven weeks walking on a variety of routes last year. But feel free to dismiss it if you prefer to.I disagree.... with the above and many other things posted in this thread.
You are, of course, free to offer your personal opinion. However, you appear to have allocated fact to the change of "prevalent attitude" based on something you were told in hospitalero training. I recall being told several things in the 2 hospitalero training sessions I have attended over the years. You are simply repeating the opinion of the trainers.
The pilgrims I interact with all seem to believe that when beds in donativo type albergues are full...it is common courtesy and humanity to leave them for more needful folks. This has not changed.
You can decide that "need of others " is topped by "traditional pilgrim hospitality" if you care to.
I do not....need is need.
I am surprised that the many posts here in the forum, during the spring and summer. about the bed races and the need to book ahead don't count toward "hearing story after story" about people being turned away. I personally have talked with many who simply cannot walk without the assistance of the donativo albergues.
I just can't understand how people would believe that somehow that has changed.
I must admit I didn’t think @grayland point …. ‘need of others " is topped by "traditional pilgrim hospitality’….is totally without merit, and I think it is worthy of thought and discussion. That said I agree with David’s view that that it a broader discussion not least for the ongoing offering of a donativo.My opinions are not based only what I heard in training. What I heard in training is relevant as to the prevalent attitude among those actually running donativo albergues. If you have a better source I am open, of course, to hearing it. In terms of the prevalent attitudes among pilgrims, I am basing it on the attitudes expressed in these forums, in which I spend a fair amount of time, and on the Camino itself, as experienced in over seven weeks walking on a variety of routes last year. But feel free to dismiss it if you prefer to.
We have certainly read a lot about spring bed races and people having difficulty finding beds. I think if you look a little more carefully at the threads with the complaints you'll find they were primarily coming from pilgrims booking ahead who were informed when calling to make reservations that all beds were taken. At the same time we were hearing from folks in albergues that didn't take reservations that they had empty beds. The fact that places taking reservations were turning people away, or that beds were hard to find between SJPP and Pamplona, isn't much evidence of donativos turning people away. I don't think any of the donativos I stayed in during my Caminos this summer filled up, so I'm not sure how you can accuse me of taking beds from those who need them, but feel free to continue with the accusations if it makes you feel better.
I notice that you didn't respond to the issue of sustainability that I (and others) raised. You want the donativos to be used exclusively by those who can't afford anything else. Which, in essence, means people who can't afford 10 euros a night. I don't think they are all receiving enough funding to be sustainable by those few pilgrims who have nothing to give (and will thus give nothing). I believe they are mostly relying on some donations to be sustainable in the long run. Of course, once again, I'm open to any evidence you have to the contrary.
I don't deny that some cannot walk without the assistance of donativo albergues. I never have. That is precisely why I want them to continue. And with some pilgrims with means in them to supplement the small or nonexistent donations from those lacking means, they might continue. But what you propose won't leave more donativo beds. It will result in less, as donativos close or stop being donativos because the model becomes unsustainable.
My first pilgrimage, there really was a shortage of albergues or refugios, and I didn't stay at them, leaving them for those that needed them. So I know what I would do in that situation. Fortunately, the situation has changed in the decades since.I must admit I didn’t think @grayland point …. ‘need of others " is topped by "traditional pilgrim hospitality’….is totally without merit, and I think it is worthy of thought and discussion. That said I agree with David’s view that that it a broader discussion not least for the ongoing offering of a donativo.
All that said it is interesting (to me at least) if folks would give up their ‘traditional pilgrim experience’ that they enjoy, and is fundamental to them, to those who maybe are just looking for a bed! It’s a big ask I know as it’s a big part to many of walking the Camino for many. Putting extra in the tin is admirable and relatively easy. Forgoing something you hold dear is another level! Anyone done it?
I don’t know what I would do tbh, although I am probably not as ‘wedded’ to the donativo experience as some might be. Also I am European so there are always more opportunities to walks Camino than those that are spending a lot of money and coming from a long way away.
I don't understand your questions. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the needs of others should be "topped" by their personal wish to enjoy "traditional pilgrim experience" at a donativo. But it seems counterproductive to shame affluent pilgrims into staying away even when there are beds available.All that said it is interesting (to me at least) if folks would give up their ‘traditional pilgrim experience’ that they enjoy, and is fundamental to them, to those who maybe are just looking for a bed! It’s a big ask I know it’s a big part to many of walking the Camino for many. Putting extra in the tin is admirable and relatively easy. Forgoing something you hold dear is another level! Anyone done it? Or refused too? Obviously not everyone as would not be financially practical.
Thank you! Yes good to hear the responses from you and David! Yes that is what I meant. Basically how many folks would give up something they value for someone they don’t know in crude terms, or how many have been in that position. I appreciate that if you are managing an establishment you will do all possible to make it work!I have seen a woman give up her bed to an elderly female although not at a donativo. The older woman was clearly exhausted and was going to have to walk backwards down from Orrison to one of their other buildings and then back for supper. A younger woman from Argentina offered to trade bunks. Very selfless.
I don't know if that is what you mean @TravellingMan22 ? When someone can't find a bed, we do everything in our power to help find them one.
Not looking to shame anyone or get people to stay away when there is capacity. Just wondering what folks would do when they may need to ‘step aside’ to help someone they don’t know who is clearly in need.I don't understand your questions. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the needs of others should be "topped" by their personal wish to enjoy "traditional pilgrim experience" at a donativo. But if seems counterproductive to shame affluent pilgrims into staying away even when there are beds available.
I recall staying in one on the VDLP and asking the person looking after it what the average donation was. He shocked me when he said many leave nothing.Given all the inflation of the past couple years, do you (especially those with hospitalero experience) think that the following are reasonable amounts to leave when staying at a donativo on the VDLP?
- bed only, with no additional services: €10
- bed with breakfast: €15
- bed with dinner: €20
I really (really) don't want to get into a debate about donativos, I just want to know if leaving these amounts in 2024 would be seen as reasonable by the hospitalero working there. In particular when dinner is involved - is €10 a reasonable amount to include for dinner? That's less than what a pilgrim menu generally costs so perhaps it's too little.
I understand it's up to each person, and there are many variables. I didn't use any donativos last year, but I'm walking on more of a budget this year and hope to stay at a few (not just for budgetary reasons, I also just want to experience it).
Thanks for your yes/no thoughts.
Thank you! Your stories are a great ‘pick meYes, it is sad we don't see more altruism, but it is there when you look for it. People are careful not to embarrass others. I've quietly paid for a young mom's groceries when it was clear she didn't have enough; baby crying on her arms with a cart of diapers and formula.
Phil's purchased and shared meals with homeless men in a fast food restaurant where they weren't welcome so they would be allowed to eat their meals in peace.
We've worked in shelters and Phil specifically with mentally ill veterans in helping them find work. We believe in these people and appreciate that they are valuable human beings that others might dismiss or turn away.
Working in a donativo and staying there as pilgrims is a gift for us. We are not "giving" as much as we are receiving a gift by serving others or paying back. Some of you may not understand this, but imagine how happy you feel when you give a gift to another person that they really treasure. That is what the donativo is about. People ask what they can do to help and the desire to share in the gift is infectious. Someone is sweeping and another is chopping vegetables and still another who is feeling ill is resting while a complete stranger is collecting his dry clothes from the line.
If you only think of what a bed costs in dollars or you only share meals at a bar or restaurant, you may never experience this quiet joy in the parallel Camino. It isn't for everyone, but it is for me.
Thank you! Great insight!I don't post often on the forum, but this is a topic near and dear to me. With @J Willhaus, I volunteer in donativo albergues. What some don't realize is that public donativos must survive on the donations they receive. It's how they keep the lights on, the water running, heat, and make repairs. Yes, they may be parochial, municipal, or affiliated with an association but they are to be self-supporting. The church, municipality, or association does not financially support once the albergue become operational. Thus, it is important that those who can afford to give a little more chose to stay in them. I encourage you to try donativos out.
I have witnessed those with less funding walking the camino. I have talked with some who haven't had a meal in a couple of days. I met and shared a meal with some who actually were well off financially but chose to stay with me in a donativo. I have seen the interaction between those well off, those in the middle, and those less well off. It has been so rewarding to see, nobody cared how much money anyone else had. I've seen the pilgrim with the boot/shoe with duct tape they obtained from a hospitalero holding the sole of their boot on. I've seen the young man walking the camino without a real backpack but using the "bolsa" (plastic grocery bag) obtained either at the grocery store for 10 cents or given to him and a string bag to carry the rest of his kit in. Both were accepted by the other pilgrims at the albergue. I've seen those who live on the camino as it is all they can afford (one was a woman from Germany whose total income at the time was about couple of hundred euros a month). I don't care nor watch what a pilgrim leaves in the donation box. I chose not to watch. All are treated the same.
Is there a bed race to donativos? Maybe sometimes. In 2019, during my service as a hospitalero we were full a couple of times but were able to help the pilgrims find a bed in a nearby albergue. In 2021 during the reduced occupancy due to covid, I was full a time or two. During that same time period, the owners of the nearby private albergue came to me to check on bed availability as they were full and had an additional peregrina arrive. I was able to provide a bed. My experience over the years is that where I have served, the donativos are normally not full. So the decision to not stay in one to take a bed from a less affluent pilgrim really doesn't stand up for when and where I have served.
I've served in several donativos and do that because it's what I like. I now stay in donativos when possible because I want them to be successful. If my donation will help that, wonderful.
It's important to me that the donativo concept continue. It's such as satisfying experience to stay there and to have the privilege of serving as a hospitalero in one.
Absolutely. Nobody is excluded from a donativo (unless it is private). That is one of, if not the main principle under which they operate.I do hope nobody feels excluded from walking in to a donativo in the hope of finding a bed.
A valid point. Donativos are rarely full and they don't exist solely for pilgrims on a tight budget. On the contrary, if you can afford it, you will be doing the donativo a favour by staying there and making a generous contribution.I am very grateful for the more affluent pilgims who can donate above and beyond the "market rate" - my heart felt thanks to you.
You will be taking up a bed that a tight budget pilgrim will urgently need.
I have recopied the reply I made just now to underline the point that you are not taking away a bed if you stay at a donativo. Stay, and donate. It will help to keep the donativos alive, and the spirit of the camino alive.Donativos are rarely full and they don´t exist solely for pilgrims on a tight budget. On the contrary, if you can afford it, you will be doing the donativo a favour by staying there and making a generous contribution.
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