Some Clarification about the online "CSJ guides"

[peregrina2000]

As many of you know, online guides are available on the CSJ (Confraternity of St. James) website for a variety of Caminos. These guides are written exclusively by volunteers, pilgrims like you, and the CSJ asks only for a small donation to keep its website going and to give some support to maintaining the organization.

Most recently, some of those online guides have moved over to the Camino Resources section of this forum. The most recent Lisbon-Porto and Porto-Santiago guides, as well as the Vadiniense guide, appear not to be updated on the CSJ website. I have no idea what's going on there, but the important thing is that they are still available.

Sometimes I think people have the impression that these "guidebooks" are written by professionals who have some financial stake in them. And that impression may lead to some false expectations and sense of entitlement as to what the guides can actually deliver.

I have been personally responsible for updating the Portugués guides for a couple of years now. I haven't walked the Portugués in years and years, so I rely on people communicating with me, and every year a handful of Camino angels (you know who you are!) take the time to provide feedback so I can update. But human errors and miscommunication are inevitable, and I´m sure I get some of it wrong.

If you use one of these guides, please do it in the spirit of -- this is a labor of love, someone´s best effort, but it´s not perfect, it´s not GPS accurate, it´s not anyone´s source of income.

Rebekah (author of Invierno, Vadiniense, Salvador, and maybe a few more I´m forgetting) is "getting out of the guide-writing business." I´m happy to take over the Invierno, and Reb has given me her blessing. But unless people who use these things (and we know from download counts that there are HUGE numbers of people who do) report back to improve it, the mistakes will go uncorrected, the new albergues will go unreported, etc. etc. The Invierno guide as it now exists is based on a translation of a Spanish document I did years ago, along with my experience and Reb´s as we walked it.

Long way to say, if you use one of these guides, please be understanding, and more importantly, HELP us to improve it.

Buen camino, Laurie

 

[isabelle304]

As many of you know, online guides are available on the CSJ (Confraternity of St. James) website for a variety of Caminos. These guides are written exclusively by volunteers, pilgrims like you, and the CSJ asks only for a small donation to keep its website going and to give some support to maintaining the organization.

Most recently, some of those online guides have moved over to the Camino Resources section of this forum. The most recent Lisbon-Porto and Porto-Santiago guides, as well as the Vadiniense guide, appear not to be updated on the CSJ website. I have no idea what's going on there, but the important thing is that they are still available.

Sometimes I think people have the impression that these "guidebooks" are written by professionals who have some financial stake in them. And that impression may lead to some false expectations and sense of entitlement as to what the guides can actually deliver.

I have been personally responsible for updating the Portugués guides for a couple of years now. I haven't walked the Portugués in years and years, so I rely on people communicating with me, and every year a handful of Camino angels (you know who you are!) take the time to provide feedback so I can update. But human errors and miscommunication are inevitable, and I´m sure I get some of it wrong.

If you use one of these guides, please do it in the spirit of -- this is a labor of love, someone´s best effort, but it´s not perfect, it´s not GPS accurate, it´s not anyone´s source of income.

Rebekah (author of Invierno, Vadiniense, Salvador, and maybe a few more I´m forgetting) is "getting out of the guide-writing business." I´m happy to take over the Invierno, and Reb has given me her blessing. But unless people who use these things (and we know from download counts that there are HUGE numbers of people who do) report back to improve it, the mistakes will go uncorrected, the new albergues will go unreported, etc. etc. The Invierno guide as it now exists is based on a translation of a Spanish document I did years ago, along with my experience and Reb´s as we walked it.

Long way to say, if you use one of these guides, please be understanding, and more importantly, HELP us to improve it.

Buen camino, Laurie

I love love love the CSJ guides - they are small and compact but pack in so much useful information. Perfect for carrying in the leg pocket of my combat-style walking trousers, and whipping out quickly when needed (several times a day!). Not only do I find the direction instructions useful, but also love all the little architecture/history stuff to look out for in each location. I use the guides in conjunction with those little maps and elevation diagrams you can find on gronze.com and eroski. I used one for the Camino Frances, Santiago to Finisterre and also the Primitivo this month. The only reason I did not use one when I did the Via de La Plata in 2009 is that the CSJ guide available at the time was several years out of date, I seem to recall.

Although it sounded, in my recent posts about the Primitivo, like I was "enjoying" listing all the CSJ guide "mistakes" I was coming across as my Camino progressed, this certainly was not my intention. In fact I am amazed at how accurate the guide was. I take note, Laurie, of your reminder to report back to the CSJ with corrections, and will certainly do so, once my Primitivo guide has dried off - it got absolutely soaked through thanks to persistent Galician rain last week and all the pages, with my handwritten notes and corrections, are presently stuck together!

 

[William Marques]

I keep the data for the CPR's accommodation list for the Via Francigena and am continually surprised how few people report back with information despite us asking for it whenever we send out the list. It is only thanks to a few helpful pilgrims and by scouring the blogs that one keeps up to date.

 

[peregrina2000]

I love love love the CSJ guides - they are small and compact but pack in so much useful information. Perfect for carrying in the leg pocket of my combat-style walking trousers, and whipping out quickly when needed (several times a day!). Not only do I find the direction instructions useful, but also love all the little architecture/history stuff to look out for in each location. I use the guides in conjunction with those little maps and elevation diagrams you can find on gronze.com and eroski. I used one for the Camino Frances, Santiago to Finisterre and also the Primitivo this month. The only reason I did not use one when I did the Via de La Plata in 2009 is that the CSJ guide available at the time was several years out of date, I seem to recall.

Although it sounded, in my recent posts about the Primitivo, like I was "enjoying" listing all the CSJ guide "mistakes" I was coming across as my Camino progressed, this certainly was not my intention. In fact I am amazed at how accurate the guide was. I take note, Laurie, of your reminder to report back to the CSJ with corrections, and will certainly do so, once my Primitivo guide has dried off - it got absolutely soaked through thanks to persistent Galician rain last week and all the pages, with my handwritten notes and corrections, are presently stuck together!

Absolutely no hidden criticisms were implied in my message, really! I just am trying to raise awareness so people will understand how important it is to send updates, otherwise these guides become useless.

 

[ivar]

How can I help on getting more pilgrims to give feedback for these guides? Would a new section inside (for example) the camino portugues forum help?

 

[peregrina2000]

How can I help on getting more pilgrims to give feedback for these guides? Would a new section inside (for example) the camino portugues forum help?

Hi, Ivar, I don't really know if that would increase the response or not. The request for feedback figures prominently in all of the guides, I know, and when I am actually working on the revisions I post specific requests, so I'm not sure if having another category in the forum would improve results or not. I suppose it's worth a try -- I wonder if others have an opinion on this, let us know. Thanks, Laurie

 

[ivar]

Hi, Ivar, I don't really know if that would increase the response or not. The request for feedback figures prominently in all of the guides, I know, and when I am actually working on the revisions I post specific requests, so I'm not sure if having another category in the forum would improve results or not. I suppose it's worth a try -- I wonder if others have an opinion on this, let us know. Thanks, Laurie

For the guides that are uploaded in the camino Resource section here:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/resources/
... each time anyone publishes an update to the document, an email is sent out to everyone that has downloaded the original file. This might be a good place to ask for feedback as well. Just a thought.

 

[peregrina2000]

For the guides that are uploaded in the camino Resource section here:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/resources/
... each time anyone publishes an update to the document, an email is sent out to everyone that has downloaded the original file. This might be a good place to ask for feedback as well. Just a thought.

At first, I thought, wow, great idea. But then I realized the sequence is backwards for what anyone updating a guide would want. Ideally, I would want to send a request for help to anyone who downloaded the guide before rather than after the new "edition" is ready so that I could use their input. Is there any way that I (or someone) could contact those who have downloaded the original file as I begin the revisions with a request for help for the update?

Buen camino, Laurie

 

[ivar]

At first, I thought, wow, great idea. But then I realized the sequence is backwards for what anyone updating a guide would want. Ideally, I would want to send a request for help to anyone who downloaded the guide before rather than after the new "edition" is ready so that I could use their input. Is there any way that I (or someone) could contact those who have downloaded the original file as I begin the revisions with a request for help for the update?

Buen camino, Laurie

I know.. I was thinking about this as well. Another option would be to use the "Discussion" tab for that resource: (For example the resource below)




...if you click the "Discussion" tab, you will see that a thread has been automatically created for this resource. Anyone that has downloaded this resource will be automatically "subscribed" to this thread. (Meaning they will receive a forum notification when there is a new post in this thread).

What if you try to get in touch with the users of the guide by asking in this thread? Would that work?

Just a thought...

Saludos,
Ivar

 

[peregrina2000]

I know.. I was thinking about this as well. Another option would be to use the "Discussion" tab for that resource: (For example the resource below)


View attachment 14453

...if you click the "Discussion" tab, you will see that a thread has been automatically created for this resource. Anyone that has downloaded this resource will be automatically "subscribed" to this thread. (Meaning they will receive a forum notification when there is a new post in this thread).

What if you try to get in touch with the users of the guide by asking in this thread? Would that work?

Just a thought...

Saludos,
Ivar

Thanks, Ivar, that seems like a great idea. I know I've said it before, but the Resources section to me is like one big bag of jumbled up apples and oranges. I know there are separate sections for different things, but I still think it is kind of unorganized and messy. Would more "product differentiation" help, do you think? (Not a complaint, mind you, just a thought. )

 

[ivar]

Thanks, Ivar, that seems like a great idea. I know I've said it before, but the Resources section to me is like one big bag of jumbled up apples and oranges. I know there are separate sections for different things, but I still think it is kind of unorganized and messy. Would more "product differentiation" help, do you think? (Not a complaint, mind you, just a thought. )

Thanks Laurie! I am open to anything that would make it better/easier to use.... maybe re-organize/re-do the categories?


Anyone with ideas, maybe a PM or email (ivar.rekve at gmail.com)?

Greetings from a sunny Santiago,
Ivar

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Hmmmm. I'd caution against immediately including information in "updates". Of course if in the guide editor's view there is information which is accurate, relevant and perhaps urgent then it should be made available. However in my experience "up dates" are not always accurate and are frequently made in response to very temporary changes in routes - "the road will be closed for 6 weeks" without any mention of start or end date. Updates are useful pointers for guide writers who have to ingest them and having walked the route AGAIN produce another edition of the guide.

My most favourite "update" was from a pilgrim who wrote to me about the Guide to the Camino Ingles: "Dear Johnnie, on page 34 of your guide you describe the church just after the Bar Julia. It does indeed have toilets behind the church. But please note when I was there there was no toilet paper."

Buen camino

John

 

[peregrina2000]

Hmmmm. I'd caution against immediately including information in "updates". Of course if in the guide editor's view there is information which is accurate, relevant and perhaps urgent then it should be made available. However in my experience "up dates" are not always accurate and are frequently made in response to very temporary changes in routes - "the road will be closed for 6 weeks" without any mention of start or end date. Updates are useful pointers for guide writers who have to ingest them and having walked the route AGAIN produce another edition of the guide.

My most favourite "update" was from a pilgrim who wrote to me about the Guide to the Camino Ingles: "Dear Johnnie, on page 34 of your guide you describe the church just after the Bar Julia. It does indeed have toilets behind the church. But please note when I was there there was no toilet paper."

Buen camino

John

Hi, JohnnieW,

I didn't explicitly bring you in on this because I thought you were up and away and off the forum for a while. But I am not suggesting that we should do anything to the CSJ guides that doesn't comport with CSJ protocol. And I don't think that anyone is suggesting that all information is equal and will be included in updates. My only concern has been with how do I get more updates, how can I encourage people who use the guide to tell me what the revisions need to include. Once I get the information and do the revisions based on the updates (which may include conflicting information, outdated information, etc, so I'll have to exercise my editorial judgment), then I'll have to figure out where best to post it.

But please don't think that I'm fomenting a CSJ rebellion in your absence.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

If anyone was to foment CSJ rebellion, it would probably be Johnnie Walker!
Like I told Laurie, the guides are living documents, they change and grow and evolve. We have to take updates at face-value, and trust that the information and the informer is accurate, timely and trustworthy. The end-user still has to use common sense, especially where temporary re-routes are involved.
I think that every trail update, image and map should be clearly date-stamped and appended onto the thread where the original download file is located, trusting that each trail guide has a discrete, seperate thread within the "trail guides" category. (wow that looks confusing...) It wouldn't do to have a jumble of trail guide texts in one file, and a jumble of maps in another.

Just for clarity's sake, I am still willing to help out with trail guides, esp. line editing and beta-testing new ones!
Reb.

 

[peregrina2000]

If anyone was to foment CSJ rebellion, it would probably be Johnnie Walker!
Like I told Laurie, the guides are living documents, they change and grow and evolve. We have to take updates at face-value, and trust that the information and the informer is accurate, timely and trustworthy. The end-user still has to use common sense, especially where temporary re-routes are involved.
I think that every trail update, image and map should be clearly date-stamped and appended onto the thread where the original download file is located, trusting that each trail guide has a discrete, seperate thread within the "trail guides" category. (wow that looks confusing...) It wouldn't do to have a jumble of trail guide texts in one file, and a jumble of maps in another.

Just for clarity's sake, I am still willing to help out with trail guides, esp. line editing and beta-testing new ones!
Reb.

Reb, just like we make for a good pair of crazy women walking, we also make for a good pair of guide-writers/compilers. Rebekah brings the interesting historical and cultural points, and I bring the prosaic -- for instance, "don't go down here even though it looks like you should, just stay up on the ridge till you come to a big chestnut grove." Reb has the lyrical and indirect prose, I have the relentlessly linear and obvious uninspired syntax. I'm starting to work on the Invierno guide now and see that very clealy. But between the two of us, though the resulting guide may not be a literary masterpiece, I think it will get you where you want to go and will give you a lot of that interesting background that Reb has dug up somewhere.

I agree completely about the time stamp and hope that as a new "edition" gets put online, the old one will be retired.

I am more than happy to take updates at face value, what I'm more worried about is whether people will send me updates!!!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

when you are an unpaid volunteer using "crowd-sourcing," there is a limit to how much you can do. And likewise, a big limit to how much the reader can expect from you, and your "free with a donation" download guide.
This is just another aspect of the great trust and good will inherent in the camino. You use these guides, you have to believe we've been there and walked and written it down right. And you have to believe we do not make mistakes in order to get you lost! (we know you can do that just fine on your own.) We really do try to give it our best.

Speaking strictly for myself, I write guides because I love to go first, even if that means heading over a cliff sometimes! I have discovered wonderful places and people and stories, and I want others to enjoy them, too, hopefully without all the hassles and false starts I probably had to deal with. (like getting lost, you can find a lot of those on your own, too!)

I am always surprised at how few people are willing to write guides... it is a whole new way to experience a path, and you create a living legacy, in a very small way.