Consigliere
Active Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- October 2013, April 2018, October 2023
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I doubt if anyone knows but is probably similar to rates of crime in other parts of rural Spain. I doubt if walkers are more or less likely to commit crime or more or less likely to be victims of crime, though I guess staying in dorms in albergues upgrades your risk. It’s very low though irrespective.I've started this thread as I've noticed many more posts relating to theft of items. I'd like to say that largely, in my experience, the Camino is safe, and free from incident.
But in saying this, I also had stuff stolen from my bag in 2018. I posted a thread and faced a load of resistance at the time, understandably, kinda. Yes, it mostly is rare, but for those that have been the victims of any sort of crime, it's also helpful to facilitate healthy discussion.
So is the Camino facing more incidence of crime or not? And how can we as a community keep each other safe?
So is the Camino facing more incidence of crime or not? And how can we as a community keep each other safe?
As I stated at the beginning this thread was meant to foster safe discussion about how to keep yourself, and other safe. And a place to express any fears or experiences.An un-useful thread with a click-bait title. IMO it will start with a lot of pointless speculative discussion and descend to arguments that previously members didn't even know they felt angry or affronted by. The result will be endless rounds of negative hot air. It won't do the forum any credit at all. I hope it disappears.
Not sure. I posted about my prescription meds going missing and got a heap of denials, or comments blaming me. Maybe I should've kept my bag on me at all timesI doubt if anyone knows but is probably similar to rates of crime in other parts of rural Spain. I doubt if walkers are more or less likely to commit crime or more or less likely to be victims of crime, though I guess staying in dorms in albergues upgrades your risk. It’s very low though irrespective.
Why did you meet resistance?
Any discussion that is helpful to new pilgrims is not pointless in my opinion.An un-useful thread with a click-bait title. IMO it will start with a lot of pointless speculative discussion and descend to arguments that previously members didn't even know they felt angry or affronted by. The result will be endless rounds of negative hot air. It won't do the forum any credit at all. I hope it disappears.
John Brierley’s reuse in his guides of the phrase ‘Trust in God but tether your camel’ always struck a chord with me.Pilgrimage for me implies trust--trust you will make it to your destination and trust that you will find kindness and help when needed. I think that is why crime and theft feels out of place on the Camino.
Sadly though, crime and theft are part of the journey and probably have been even since medieval times. We don't like to think about this.
Guide books don't generally have a paragraph talking about theft although there might be a paragraph about safety at roadway crossings. Perhaps that should be a part of learning about the Camino although even the movie "Thev Way" has a segment about Tom's bag being stolen (which has a fairytale happy ending. ) I do want pilgrims to have a realistic understanding of what they can do to protect their valuables and keep themselves safe.
Personal awareness is a key and taking valuables with you that you can't easily protect is a risk. As a hospitalera, I do what I can to protect pilgrims, but I am.only a volunteer and also a guest where I am volunteering with little input on measures of security.
I don't really want intrusive security camera or other measures. I usually have a physical key to the doors and keep the Guardia Civil phone number nearby.
Great question!So is the Camino facing more incidence of crime or not?
The best ways to keep your belongings safe, in my opinion are:
1. Don't take anything you can't afford to lose - leave expensive equipment at home
2. Carry all cash, cards, electronics, prescriptions on your person at all times, even when sleeping
3. Don't assume people walking/sleeping in albergues are "pilgrims to be trusted."
In my 2012 Brierley he also quotes from William Arthur Ward:John Brierley’s reuse in his guides of the phrase ‘Trust in God but tether your camel’ always struck a chord with me.
This, my friends, is classic sealioning behaviour. Don’t take the bait.As I stated at the beginning this thread was meant to foster safe discussion about how to keep yourself, and other safe. And a place to express any fears or experiences.
I'm sorry if you feel this is a difficult discussion that might provoke negative responses.
Thanks, I should've guessed. It bursts a bubble. I'm a little too grounded sometimesPilgrimage for me implies trust--trust you will make it to your destination and trust that you will find kindness and help when needed. I think that is why crime and theft feels out of place on the Camino.
Sadly though, crime and theft are part of the journey and probably have been even since medieval times. We don't like to think about this.
Guide books don't generally have a paragraph talking about theft although there might be a paragraph about safety at roadway crossings. Perhaps that should be a part of learning about the Camino although even the movie "Thev Way" has a segment about Tom's bag being stolen (which has a fairytale happy ending. ) I do want pilgrims to have a realistic understanding of what they can do to protect their valuables and keep themselves safe.
Personal awareness is a key and taking valuables with you that you can't easily protect is a risk. As a hospitalera, I do what I can to protect pilgrims, but I am.only a volunteer and also a guest where I am volunteering with little input on measures of security.
I don't really want intrusive security camera or other measures. I usually have a physical key to the doors and keep the Guardia Civil phone number nearby.
Dam... I had to look that up.This, my friends, is classic sealioning behaviour. Don’t take the bait.
You can't be serious... seal lion? Like it reminds me of my old Mondegreen.This, my friends, is classic sealioning behaviour. Don’t take the bait.
I haven't noticed a marked increase in these reports over previous non-Covid years. As @Tincatinker's research shows.I've started this thread as I've noticed many more posts relating to theft of items
I just did a dirty audit searching for theft reports as to just discussions about theft
The results are:
2023 Reports 3, Discussions 10
2022 Reports 2, Discussions 7
2021 Reports 1, Discussions 3 (Covid year)
2020 Reports 0, Discussions 0 (Covid year)
2019 Reports 5, Discussions 17
2018 Reports 3, Discussions 8 (The reports all refer to a gang that were apprehended)
As pointed out by @Tincatinker in post #12, your impression seems to be wrong. I have not noticed "many more posts" about theft.I've noticed many more posts relating to theft of items.
Undoubtedly, as the number of people walking the camino increases, the number of thefts will increase. But I have never seen any statistics on the matter, and I continue to take the same precautions I do when travelling anywhere.So is the Camino facing more incidence of crime or not?
This thread has been moved into the "Safety and Security on the Camino" section of the forum. If you click on those words above the title at the top of this thread, you will find many discussions and suggestions about how to keep ourselves safe and also help our fellow pilgrims.And how can we as a community keep each other safe?
Perhaps there are other, more important issues, than whether Camino crime has increaed by 2% or 5% or decreased by 'X%.' When all that is needed is to continue to exercise common sense, what purpose is being served? If someone has no clue about applied common sense, an extended 'safe Camino' discussion practically serves no purpose.I've started this thread as I've noticed many more posts relating to theft of items. I'd like to say that largely, in my experience, the Camino is safe, and free from incident.
But in saying this, I also had stuff stolen from my bag in 2018. I posted a thread and faced a load of resistance at the time, understandably, kinda. Yes, it mostly is rare, but for those that have been the victims of any sort of crime, it's also helpful to facilitate healthy discussion.
So is the Camino facing more incidence of crime or not? And how can we as a community keep each other safe?
Or, to quote a Judge from one of London’s Crown Courts, if it weren’t for the “fences” theft would cease to exist..Thanks, I should've guessed. It bursts a bubble. I'm a little too grounded sometimes.
I know you guys do a stunningly good job, and in no way should you feel at all the need to be more careful. It's up to me to carry a money belt or bum bag should I want to stay safe.
Or to quote an angry drill instructor... "if it wasn't for people who don't lock their footlocker thieves wouldn't exist".
Well said. As to point one of yours….I am guilty of being a “gear nut”, I fully confess. I mean you’ve no idea how much time I spend reading backpack and shoe reviews.The best ways to keep your belongings safe, in my opinion are:
1. Don't take anything you can't afford to lose - leave expensive equipment at home
2. Carry all cash, cards, electronics, prescriptions on your person at all times, even when sleeping
3. Don't assume people walking/sleeping in albergues are "pilgrims to be trusted."
I’ve got a couple of Lacoste polo shirts; absolute bargain from a market in Barcelona at only €30 each.Well said. As to point one of yours….I am guilty of being a “gear nut”, I fully confess. I mean you’ve no idea how much time I spend reading backpack and shoe reviews.
That said, avoiding “Gucci gear” on the Camino, IMO, makes for a more relaxed Camino. Buying Amazon Essential clothes (or some other generic equivalent) means less stress leaving it outside on the laundry line while you walk around town, as opposed to an $Arcteryx$ piece of clothing. Similarly, Decathlon supplies excellent hiking supplies at an affordable price, unlike some outfitters (I am looking at you MEC in Canada). Aliexpress also offers a wide range of hiking gear, patterned on Sea to Summit, and others, but at a fraction of the price.
Obviously though, this doesn’t apply to passports or credit cards. Buy a stapler and staple those to yourself. Its’ a little uncomfortable, but only at first.
“He who knows that enough is enough will always have enough.“ - Lao Tzu
Interested to know if the word ‘fences’ has any meaning for USA folks!Or, to quote a Judge from one of London’s Crown Courts, if it weren’t for the “fences” theft would cease to exist..
Ha ha . Proud owner of a fake Lacoste too from the South East Asia collection!I’ve got a couple of Lacoste polo shirts; absolute bargain from a market in Barcelona at only €30 each.
I suspect they’re a ‘limited edition’ as my crocodile faces right, not left like the usual ones.
I always enjoy this story.I've also always liked the concept that the Gods help those that help themselves:
A storm descends on a small town, and the downpour soon turns into a flood. As the waters rise, the local preacher kneels in prayer on the church porch, surrounded by water. By and by, one of the townsfolk comes up the street in a canoe.
"Better get in, Preacher. The waters are rising fast."
"No," says the preacher. "I have faith in the Lord. He will save me."
Still the waters rise. Now the preacher is up on the balcony, wringing his hands in supplication, when another guy zips up in a motorboat.
"Come on, Preacher. We need to get you out of here. The levee's gonna break any minute."
Once again, the preacher is unmoved. "I shall remain. The Lord will see me through."
After a while the levee breaks, and the flood rushes over the church until only the steeple remains above water. The preacher is up there, clinging to the cross, when a helicopter descends out of the clouds, and a state trooper calls down to him through a megaphone.
"Grab the ladder, Preacher. This is your last chance."
Once again, the preacher insists the Lord will deliver him.
And, predictably, he drowns.
A pious man, the preacher goes to heaven. After a while he gets an interview with God, and he asks the Almighty, "Lord, I had unwavering faith in you. Why didn't you deliver me from that flood?"
God shakes his head. "What did you want from me? I sent you two boats and a helicopter."
Lets add a fact-check here. In 2018, you posted a thread titled Spirituality, theft and staying aware on the Camino - from a current pilgrim that addressed two issues, one of which was an inference that you had medication stolen, although the language makes that unclear. There were about 15 responses to your post. Reading through them, I cannot detect where there was 'a load of resistance' to either of your propositions. Others might want to check that for themselves.But in saying this, I also had stuff stolen from my bag in 2018. I posted a thread and faced a load of resistance at the time,
There is a point where propositions such as this are little more than fear-mongering, particularly where there is little in the way of fact produced to support the argument. That would not, IMO, be very helpful to new pilgrims.Any discussion that is helpful to new pilgrims is not pointless in my opinion.
Totally agree. The truth is thatGreat question!
I just did a dirty audit searching for theft reports as to just discussions about theft
The results are:
2023 Reports 3, Discussions 10
2022 Reports 2, Discussions 7
2021 Reports 1, Discussions 3 (Covid year)
2020 Reports 0, Discussions 0 (Covid year)
2019 Reports 5, Discussions 17
2018 Reports 3, Discussions 8 (The reports all refer to a gang that were apprehended)
It should be noted that most, though not all, of the reports are 2nd hand reports or are highlighting newspaper reports.
Of course this forum reflects a very small percentage of those who actually walk the caminos. I've no doubt there are pilgrims who have never even heard of this forum who suffer theft and its indignities that we will never hear of here.
So, is there a crime wave on the camino? Probably not. Will opportunists still seek to take advantage of the unwary? Most definitely. Is there anything we can do about it? Yes, take elementary precautions. Keep your valuables on your person, always. Don't leave your gadgets on that handy bed-side shelf let alone on the table while you go for a wee-wee. Zip up your pockets on the Metro and if anyone gets to up close & personal jab your finger in their eye. If you find a spare hand in your pocket try and break their little finger.
Remember, fear is the mind killer. Positive action is protection.
The Camino is not facing more incidence of crime. The Guardia Civil have become a lot more proactive about eliminating what little there is. Exercise normal common sense and offer to watch other pilgrim’s stuff when they go to the bathroom. And be careful when you cross the road.I've started this thread as I've noticed many more posts relating to theft of items. I'd like to say that largely, in my experience, the Camino is safe, and free from incident.
But in saying this, I also had stuff stolen from my bag in 2018. I posted a thread and faced a load of resistance at the time, understandably, kinda. Yes, it mostly is rare, but for those that have been the victims of any sort of crime, it's also helpful to facilitate healthy discussion.
So is the Camino facing more incidence of crime or not? And how can we as a community keep each other safe?
Right,Lets add a fact-check here. In 2018, you posted a thread titled Spirituality, theft and staying aware on the Camino - from a current pilgrim that addressed two issues, one of which was an inference that you had medication stolen, although the language makes that unclear. There were about 15 responses to your post. Reading through them, I cannot detect where there was 'a load of resistance' to either of your propositions. Others might want to check that for themselves.
I am wondering why, now, your OP here shouldn't be considered trolling, given that a major plank of your opening argument would appear to be less than well founded.
ps while I tend to agree with @Anniesantiago on many things, I wouldn't agree with her assessment here:
There is a point where propositions such as this are little more than fear-mongering, particularly where there is little in the way of fact produced to support the argument. That would not, IMO, be very helpful to new pilgrims.
Honestly, there's a lot less theft now than there was, and the Police have become a lot more skilful at repressing it.So is the Camino facing more incidence of crime or not?
The only caution I'd raise about watching "other pilgrim's stuff" is what WE learned about that on our first Camino back in 2006. We met 3 college students in SJPP. In Pamplona we ran into them again. Their Camino was over and they were on their way home because "a nice pilgrim" they had walked with for a stage or two had offered to watch their stuff while they showered in Pamplona. They returned to no cash, no credit cards, no cameras - SHE had cleaned them out and disappeared.The Camino is not facing more incidence of crime. The Guardia Civil have become a lot more proactive about eliminating what little there is. Exercise normal common sense and offer to watch other pilgrim’s stuff when they go to the bathroom. And be careful when you cross the road.
This year we've had several thefts, several sex crimes, several dog attack incidents,
Lots of sense as always. But I think sex crimes goes far beyond physical assault whether is is flashing, stroking, voyeurism or revenge porn. I appreciate that legally it may not be. There are some bizarre laws in countries that just aren’t right! Upskirting didn’t used to be illegal in England until recently.I have been watching this thread with concern, because I think the tendency is for what was an honestly expressed question to turn into a thread that creates panic or anxiety where none existed before. I’ve been walking caminos for 20 years and though I have walked the more popular routes, my clear preference now is for those where solitude is lethe coin of the realm. I am not afraid, nervous or anxious, yet I try to be alert and cautious if something seems off.
I think there is no doubt that as the numbers of pilgrims continues to increase, petty theft increases as well. For the most part, those are crimes of opportunity, and they happen when pilgrims let down their guard and leave their belongings unattended. More serious incidents are very rare.
First, let’s remove the dog attacks from our crime statistics. Second, making a statement that there have been “several sex crimes” is just not accurate. Under Spanish law, much of what others may describe as “sex crimes” are not covered by the criminal code. I am not dismissing the awfulness of seeing someone masturbating before your eyes, but I would reserve the term “sex crime” for physical assaults. There have not been several this year. That brings us back to “several thefts,” which is right where we started.
If you think you are going into a bubble where nothing bad happens, think again. The camino is the real world, special as it may be, and you need to pay attention. But it would be a real shame if that fact were to put you in a place of distrust, suspicion and heightened nervous tension, because it will rob you of the chance to experience the many special opportunities for growth and reflection in a stripped-to-the-basics world.
I’m not saying anything new here — this thread and many others have pointed out the extremely low incidence of crime on the camino, which is undoubtedly why those rare exceptions send shock waves.
In my mind there is a big difference between growth in theft on the camino and growth in concern about theft on the camino, and the latter can push you into a state of unrealistic nervousness and anxiety.
I get that, and I totally agree. But I think that when we are tallying sex crimes on the Camino we should make clear what we are talking about. As I have frequently said, having been the victim of flashing at least 6-8 times on different caminos, I understand the disgust and revulsion that is often hard to shake. I also know that for some it causes serious emotional trauma. In a country where flashing is not a crime in the criminal code, it may occur more often than it does in countries where it is criminalized (though I have no idea whether that’s true). But my main point is that I think we should make clear that physical sexual assault is extremely rare on the camino. It can happen, but the odds of it happening on the camino are infinitesimally less than in my own country and in the countries of origin of most forum members.But I think sex crimes goes far beyond physical assault whether is is flashing, stroking, voyeurism or revenge porn. I appreciate that legally it may not be.
Just to note here, and you noted yourself, not everyone knows about this forum. And that's really being generous, I'd imagine probably 95% of people walking the camino don't know about this forum. I never knew about this place until I was informed about it.Great question!
I just did a dirty audit searching for theft reports as to just discussions about theft
The results are:
2023 Reports 3, Discussions 10
2022 Reports 2, Discussions 7
2021 Reports 1, Discussions 3 (Covid year)
2020 Reports 0, Discussions 0 (Covid year)
2019 Reports 5, Discussions 17
2018 Reports 3, Discussions 8 (The reports all refer to a gang that were apprehended)
It should be noted that most, though not all, of the reports are 2nd hand reports or are highlighting newspaper reports.
Of course this forum reflects a very small percentage of those who actually walk the caminos. I've no doubt there are pilgrims who have never even heard of this forum who suffer theft and its indignities that we will never hear of here.
So, is there a crime wave on the camino? Probably not. Will opportunists still seek to take advantage of the unwary? Most definitely. Is there anything we can do about it? Yes, take elementary precautions. Keep your valuables on your person, always. Don't leave your gadgets on that handy bed-side shelf let alone on the table while you go for a wee-wee. Zip up your pockets on the Metro and if anyone gets to up close & personal jab your finger in their eye. If you find a spare hand in your pocket try and break their little finger.
Remember, fear is the mind killer. Positive action is protection.
As tincatinker in post#11, has pointed out, this is not actually the case. In fact, the number of crimes reported on this forum seems to have remained stable in spite of the growth in numbers of both camino walkers and forum members. As for growing concern, this may be as much to do with the growth of threads such as this one.I've started this thread as I've noticed many more posts relating to theft of items
Sean focal as gailgeI think when we hear about theft on the Camino too much of it is second, thrid or fourth hand info. (The sister of my cousins ex brother in law said he met a guy who knew somebody that had stuff stolen) It’s how these wild rumors get started and then they snowball and pity the newcomers who are trying to separate fact from fiction. As said above take the same precautions you would at home. Valuables stay with you at all times and don’t bring things you can’t afford to lose.
An old Irish wordSean focal as gailge
Duirt bean lion gur dhuirt bean lei
Do you know how much unpaid, unseen, unacknowledged work local people have to do to create and maintain a camino? The research, the lobbying local authorities, the negotiation with local landowners, the waymarking, cleaning and maintaining the albergues, are just part of the massive effort that goes into making a camino happen. Did you know that albergues cost more to run than is collected in payments (to say nothing of the capital costs)? In other words, every time you stay in a municipal albergue you are, in effect, receiving charity from local people. If any of those local people were to read your remarks, they would be deeply hurt.that local people saw pilgrims as walking ATMs and nothing more,
There is a typo in the original message, it should be liom not lion.An old Irish word
A lion woman said that a woman told her
This, according to Google translate, is what that means in English.
Sorry I was hesitant to use the term sex crime, but over here if you expose yourself to someone or masturbate in front of them or record them naked in a shower, that's exactly what they class it as and all generally involve the person being added to the sex offenders register. The same generally applies for most major countries around the world.I have been watching this thread with concern, because I think the tendency is for what was an honestly expressed question to turn into a thread that creates panic or anxiety where none existed before. I’ve been walking caminos for 20 years and though I have walked the more popular routes, my clear preference now is for those where solitude is the coin of the realm. I am not afraid, nervous or anxious, yet I try to be alert and cautious if something seems off.
I think there is no doubt that as the numbers of pilgrims continues to increase, petty theft increases as well. For the most part, those are crimes of opportunity, and they happen when pilgrims let down their guard and leave their belongings unattended. More serious incidents are very rare.
First, let’s remove the dog attacks from our crime statistics. Second, making a statement that there have been “several sex crimes” is just not accurate. Under Spanish law, much of what others may describe as “sex crimes” are not covered by the criminal code. I am not dismissing the awfulness of seeing someone masturbating before your eyes, but I would reserve the term “sex crime” for physical assaults. There have not been several this year. That brings us back to “several thefts,” which is right where we started.
If you think you are going into a bubble where nothing bad happens, think again. The camino is the real world, special as it may be, and you need to pay attention. But it would be a real shame if that fact were to put you in a place of distrust, suspicion and heightened nervous tension, because it will rob you of the chance to experience the many special opportunities for growth and reflection in a stripped-to-the-basics world.
I’m not saying anything new here — this thread and many others have pointed out the extremely low incidence of crime on the camino, which is undoubtedly why those rare exceptions send shock waves.
In my mind there is a big difference between growth in theft on the camino and growth in concern about theft on the camino, and the latter can push you into a state of unrealistic nervousness and anxiety.
This reminds me of the "telephone game" I used to play in the US. As kids we'd sit in a circle and the first person whispered something in the next person's ear, then that person repeated what they'd heard and whisper it to the next person. By the time it got back to the original person who started the game, everyone had a good laugh as it was completely different than the original.So it means "A woman told me that a woman told her....."
I prefer it if the decision to close a thread is taken by the moderators. I learn a lot from what members post, even if only that I absolutely disagree with what they are saying. Echo chambers don’t challenge existing opinions.Mods, Is there any reason to keep this thread going? Personally, I had no problem with the initial post and question posed by the OP. I was surprised that the thread seemed to go quickly downhill / sideways and at the nature of some of the comments directed at the OP. Personal opinion aside, there are already many views recorded above on the question - to paraphrase 'Is theft on the Camino a growing concern?'. I wonder what is to be gained by keeping this thread going.
I am not looking to have my views echoed. But I agree, it is always - and rightly - the moderators' decision. And, at the same time, we are free to ask the question.I prefer it if the decision to close a thread is taken by the moderators. I learn a lot from what members post, even if only that I absolutely disagree with what they are saying. Echo chambers don’t challenge existing opinions.
It’s time to close this thread, but I wanted to point out how very inaccurate these assertions are.I'd basically wager that authorities, police, municipalities/concellos don't want crime on the camino to be publicised because they don't want to harm the image of the Camino and the revenue it brings, also the transitory nature of the Camino means someone might be robbed but then the victim leaves the municipality a day or two later. so they aren't going to kick up a fuss to the same level as a local who has the right to vote in the community and will tell all their friends.
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