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Don, can you elaborate some more on this? I would really value your opinion. I have no architectural or design training, but I have to say I found the clash between the snazzy post-modern interior design and the ancient buildings in the Santo Estevo parador to be very discordant and jarring. Same goes for the Portuguese pousada in Viseu. I understand that the furnishings in some of the historical paradores are faded and need attention (and Santiago would be a prime example, at least in the low-end rooms I have stayed in), but I don’t understand why furnishing a room, a reception area, a hallway, etc in a way that complements the original architectural features means that we are disneyfying it.This is a recommnded approach in historic conservation circles, make new look new and not quaint and picturesque as if you are "Disneyfying" it.
I can see some merit in this consideration. But let's hope that the full picture still shows respect and interest in the historical elements.This is a recommnded approach in historic conservation circles, make new look new and not quaint and picturesque as if you are "Disneyfying" it.
No! Just my ignorant opinion.Call me an old fuddy duddy, but is this any way to treat a treasure from the Sixteenth Century?
Hmmmm. Someone's company may have scored that contract.It's likewhat they did to the inside of the stunning Santo Estevo monastery (now parador) near Ourense.
I think the idea is that you when you renovate, you need to be careful not to make it a fake and romanticised Disney version of the old. Although maybe that isn't so bad. It can be hard to be authentic and enjoy modern comforts at the same time.I don’t think Disney when I look at the earlier furnishings and decor,
I have seen that, when a new section or part of an old monument is needed for some reason, it is done in a modern style, so the two historical moments are clearly distinguished. I can understand the logic, but the result is quite odd and not exactly enticing.
There has been a lively and evolving discussion about restoration vs reconstruction. It started with the works of Violet le Duc in France (he rescued many medieval monuments, but gave himself a wide license and was too fond of gargoyles) to present times. The general criteria was stated by Adolphe Napoléon Didron: “for ancient monuments, it is better to consolidate than repair, better to repair than to restore, better to restore than to reconstruct”. I have seen that, when a new section or part of an old monument is needed for some reason, it is done in a modern style, so the two historical moments are clearly distinguished. I can understand the logic, but the result is quite odd and not exactly enticing.
Apparently, there has been a sort of recent comeback to the idea of reconstruction.
For a more complete discussion, see this article in the UNESCO "Courier".
It looks like it’s in the middle of beautiful countryside but is Ourense on a Camino? I hadn’t heard of that town so I looked it up and it seems to be south of the Camino Frances and east of the Camino Portuguese?The gist of this article is that some pictures have been released showing the renovations to the San Marcos parador. The article describes the public's reaction as scandalized. Look for yourself -- it is the post-industrial chic look. At least there are no exposed pipes, at least that I can see.
Escándalo en las redes sociales de León ante la reforma del interior de San Marcos - ILEÓN.COM
Unas imágenes de la próxima recepción del nuevo Parador Nacional, que convierten la joya del plateresco español en un espacio de acero y hormigón, provocan una enorme indignación entre los internautas leoneses. El historiador del Arte César García Álvarez considera que desvirtúa "totalmente los...www.ileon.com
The summary of the article gives the gist, so I'll translate that -- "Some photos of the new reception area of the Parador Nacional, which convert the jewel of Spanish Plateresque into a space of steel and concrete, provoke an enormous outrage among León's online community. The Historian of Art, Cesar Garcia Alvarez, stated that the renovations totally ignore "all of the aesthetic values of the of the building with an annihilation of its original aesthetic."
Call me an old fuddy duddy, but is this any way to treat a treasure from the Sixteenth Century? It's likewhat they did to the inside of the stunning Santo Estevo monastery (now parador) near Ourense.
It looks like it’s in the middle of beautiful countryside but is Ourense on a Camino? I hadn’t heard of that town so I looked it up and it seems to be south of the Camino Frances and east of the Camino Portuguese?
It looks like it’s in the middle of beautiful countryside but is Ourense on a Camino? I hadn’t heard of that town so I looked it up and it seems to be south of the Camino Frances and east of the Camino Portuguese?
Ourense is on the Camino Sanabrés (Zamora to Santiago) as others have said. This parador, however, is about 25 km from Ourense, right on the Sil River and very close to the spectacular Sil River Gorge. Lots of romanesque around, too. But it’s a great post-camino relaxation trip!It looks like it’s in the middle of beautiful countryside but is Ourense on a Camino? I hadn’t heard of that town so I looked it up and it seems to be south of the Camino Frances and east of the Camino Portuguese?
"Too fond of gargoyles"!!
I think I know what you mean and I have seen renovations and new American pseudo mansions built in this style and it couldn’t look more tacky and repugnant )to me at least). As I know what I like but don’t know anything about architecture. Couldn’t tell gothic from Baroque if you put a gun to my head. But couldn’t they do a restoration that would keep the historical integrity, look and feel as well as modernize the building at the same time? I am just piggybacking Perigrina’s thoughts that you seem to have some knowledge of this field and I too read what you write as I often learn something of value and interest.This is a recommnded approach in historic conservation circles, make new look new and not quaint and picturesque as if you are "Disneyfying" it.
That’s a good point. This parador has not, at least in recent times, had that heavy castilian curly wood furniture with tapestries and knights in armor positioned around the halls that you can find in some “traditional” places (Zamora parador, for instance). So maybe my reaction was caused not just by the fact that it is a ”different” style, but that the difference is so huge and dissonant, at least IMO. And, if I am seeing that reception picture correctly, the new tanatorio style (love it, LT) covers up a lot of the original beautiful architecture. That doesn’t seem to fit the new mantra.Well it wasn't all classical in style but that reception area does seem a "modernisation too far"
View attachment 84258
Leon 2012
View attachment 84259
And the dining room was certainly very modern back then:
View attachment 84260
They took out gardens to make that?! (Gardens may not be part of the original buildings, but they certainly add to the ambience.)This new part is located, according to this article, “in what were the old gardens that you could see from the restaurant in the part near the river.”
I've never been inside the Leon parador. Google has satellite views from earlier years and a more recent view where you see already the building works going on. According to the ileon article, the new reception area is in the very left side of the building, with a formal garden behind it. It looks as if this area had been covered with a roof since at least 2007. The formal garden is now gone but it is still an open space and it may not have been "original" anyway. ☺They took out gardens to make that?! (Gardens may not be part of the original buildings, but they certainly add to the ambience.)
How can one be too fond of gargoyles?
Not least of which is the Cathedral in Santiago. When you approach it in the Plaza de Obradoiro it hardly looks like a Gothic cathedral at all. Look how they ruined it! And the choir! You have to head to the museum (if I remember correctly) to see how it should be. Someone in the past completely removed Master Mateo's masterpiece of a choir and replaced it with something contemporary. No respect!Many Gothic churches have baroque altars. Each period adds a new touch to "old" things. In this way, buildings live, are current and connect periods, they are alive. I had a similar “problem” with an astronaut at Salamanca Cathedral added at a restoration instead of a missing item (on the outside, at the door). Shock, amazement, reflection, excitement ... that's how it went for me.
Of course - we may or may not like the new elements. The toilets and bathrooms in the rooms are probably not as annoying
So instead they make it a fake and industrialised version that sits very uncomfortably with the fabric of the building. Personally I strongly dislike the fashion for plonking a modern design on top of a clearly old and historic building. It is perfectly possible to produce a design which is in keeping with the history without turning it into a Disney castle.I think the idea is that you when you renovate, you need to be careful not to make it a fake and romanticised Disney version of the old. Although maybe that isn't so bad. It can be hard to be authentic and enjoy modern comforts at the same time.
finding the classic architecture alongside the the "neo-Brutalist" style will prove jarring....at the least.
Viollet le Duc... There is a quote that represent well his ideas: To restore an edifice is not just to maintain it, repair it or rebuild it,…but, to reestablish it in a complete state that may never have existed before at a particular moment in history.
How about the Mosque-Cathedral of Córdoba? What would have been a travesty at the time, from one perspective, is now perhaps the most stunning and historically-revealing building in Spain. Wandering through it, one is left in awe at the conflict and beauty together.the fashion for plonking a modern design on top of a clearly old and historic building.
I went to the front desk to complain and asked for a garden view. I was told this was only possible if I paid a supplement.
How about the Mosque-Cathedral of Córdoba? What would have been a travesty at the time, from one perspective, is now perhaps the most stunning and historically-revealing building in Spain.
The only building that I have seen in my life that reminded me, instantly, and with a shock of delight, of a Disney castle, was the Bishop's Palace in Astorga. I have never been inside, but enjoy looking at the fairy palace whenever I walk by. I have never, by the way, been to Disneyland. But Gaudi has demonstrated that it is possible to bring a fantasy to life in a form that is better than a Disney imitation. This is not, however, a comment on what may result today from a fear of "Disneyfying"."Disneyfying"
Assuming you haven't been there yet, I think that Disney won't come to mind when you see the Mosque-Cathedral in Córdoba . But for the shock of delight and wonder, you must go inside. It used to be that pilgrims could go in free, first thing in the morning, That is one more excellent reason to walk the Levante.a shock of delight
Assuming you haven't been there yet, I think that Disney won't come to mind when you see the Mosque-Cathedral in Córdoba . But for the shock of delight and wonder, you must go inside. It used to be that pilgrims could go in free, first thing in the morning, That is one more excellent reason to walk the Levante.
Edited to add: It is also helpful to have a bit of an idea of the history behind it.
Please let it not be another investment similar to that red swipe of paint at the National Gallery of a couple decades ago...I sit now on a committee charged with determining the parameters of a new monument to be built in Ottawa, on the river bank beside the national archives....
Instead of the black industrial steel look, local stone would have been pleasing.
Please let it not be another investment similar to that red swipe of paint at the National Gallery of a couple decades ago...
I am looking forward to my time at the parador in Zamora even more now that you have listed these delights to anticipate. Provided they look original, of course. And I don't have the training to be able to distinguish this.tapestries and knights in armor positioned around the halls that you can find in some “traditional” places (Zamora parador, for instance)
Walt Disney was 12 years old when the Gaudi-designed Bishop's Palace was completed. Perhaps Disneyland is the Gaudization of Disney's castle...The only building that I have seen in my life that reminded me, instantly, and with a shock of delight, of a Disney castle, was the Bishop's Palace in Astorga.
Alas, Cordoba is not on the Levante. I have read Michener's interesting experience and interpretation of the Mosque-Cathedral in Cordoba, but shall have to await a later year to walk the Camino Mozarabe, as for that matter, I am waiting for a suitable time to walk the Levante.That is one more excellent reason to walk the Levante.
Of course! I knew that, but my typing fingers didn't!Cordoba is not on the Levante.
No problem. And we pilgrims generally prefer our comforts, however modern. But many of us come from countries where more than a couple of centuries of local experience can only be found among the indigenous peoples, who in most places left minimal structures. As pilgrims, we look to a long tradition of religious and pilgrim-oriented architecture to help to link us to the millions of pilgrims of the past: as for the plague, we have that right now, and like the violence on the Portuguese camino recently related and the thefts from pilgrims in albergues, we would rather it didn't happen. But, in this ancient land, on these ancient routes, many of us are seeking a way to understand our calling to be pilgrims, and traditional architecture is one way to do so.What I adore about Europe is the constant capacity of its inhabitants and designers to continue to modify what is already there to function under new demands.
How about the Mosque-Cathedral of Córdoba? What would have been a travesty at the time, from one perspective, is now perhaps the most stunning and historically-revealing building in Spain.
Note that I didn't say it was beautiful or justifiable. I carefully said it was "stunning and historically-revealing".I'm not sure I could disagree with you more violently.
No problem. And we pilgrims generally prefer our comforts, however modern. But many of us come from countries where more than a couple of centuries of local experience can only be found among the indigenous peoples, who in most places left minimal structures. As pilgrims, we look to a long tradition of religious and pilgrim-oriented architecture to help to link us to the millions of pilgrims of the past: as for the plague, we have that right now, and like the violence on the Portuguese camino recently related and the thefts from pilgrims in albergues, we would rather it didn't happen. But, in this ancient land, on these ancient routes, many of us are seeking a way to understand our calling to be pilgrims, and traditional architecture is one way to do so.
The Parador(s) has always been out of my budget range anyway, but if they gave me a free night's stay I could not care less if it was in the original layout or in a more modern one. I would just be happy to be there.
I suppose everything is indeed perspective. If you were to bury side by side Michelangelo's David and a modern statue, let us say the statue of the movie character Rocky they have or had in Philadelphia US, and the statues were discovered by some civilization 100,000 years in the future who has no knowledge of our modern society as all recordings were lost for whatever reason. Does not know who Michelangelo of the movie character Rocky was. They would hold both statues/sculptures in reverence as artwork from an ancient culture. The statues/sculptures would be priceless to them.
One we now consider a work of art, the other...not so much (unless you're a diehard Rocky fan).
Perspective.
Yes, exactly.There is also the fascinating problem of the *multiple* statues of "David" in Florence.... the original replicated over and over. Are the copies also art?
And why is the statue of Rocky not art? I am not a Rocky fan, but I can think of many reasons that a character from a story can become a revered icon for a region.
What shall we say of the Roosters in Barcelos? and what of the Magical Rooster story that appears on the Le Puy, on the Portuguese and on the French Route in Spain?
Oh... such fun!
Thank you for the rumination on the question of what makes a piece of public art, well, art.
Note that I didn't say it was beautiful or justifiable. I carefully said it was "stunning and historically-revealing".
In an earlier post, the words "delight and wonder" crept in. I agree that "delight" is not the right word, but I stand by the "wonder" aspect.
I think it’s usually about ego.
The Parador in Leon, San Marcos, is still closed. They plan to open in December 2020.As an Amigo de Paradores and having stayed in them since I was a child (about 60 years!), I will stay in Leon and report back.
An interesting discussion and I'm not able - or too lazy - to follow all of it.have often wondered why bits get added
I had no idea. I didn't visit San Marcos - not the hotel part, not the museum part and not the church part. I just walked past it. I have now read a bit about this chapter of the building's past. It will not be the same for me should I walk past it again.I hope they've left this plaque in the cloister. Some things from the past should never be lost.View attachment 84308
Found it ☺. A postcard from 1961. The courtyard (marked in purple) is still an open air space. But apart from the façade facing the square, the whole building complex on the left that surrounds this courtyard seems to be quite uninteresting. It dates from the late 18th century, unlike the building complex on the right, with the cloister, which is much earlier.Does anyone know of an image from before 1964?
I like to drop by, pay my respects as it were. One time one of the gardeners saw me reading and came and stood next to me. I said "Tiempos tristes"; "Malos tiempos" he said, spat, and walked away.I had no idea. I didn't visit San Marcos - not the hotel part, not the museum part and not the church part. I just walked past it. I have now read a bit about this chapter of the building's past. It will not be the same for me should I walk past it again.
Maybe I didn't read too carefully but I didn't notice much inflammation ☺. I learnt a ton of interesting stuff about a building to which I hadn't paid much attention when I walked past.a discussion about architecture can end just as inflammatory
Same. And I have the same hope as you!It occurred to me why I liked my room in San Martín Pinario in Santiago and in a few similar monasteries turned hotels in Spain and elsewhere so much more: the guestrooms were tiny; had a tiny bathroom squeezed into the space or had even shared bathrooms; were sparsely furnished, didn't even have a closet sometimes. They were converted monk's cells. I like it more than the opulent large guestrooms in other places. De gustibus, of course. I believe San Martín Pinario is being renovated. I hope their guestrooms don't change too much.
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