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Why is there an a'postrophe?

Bert45

Active Member
Year of past OR future Camino
(2003) Francés, (2014) Francés, (2016) Portugués , (2016) Aragonés, (2018) del Norte to Primitivo,
Why do I see O'Cebreiro and O'Pedrouzo so often on the internet? It's bad enough to see "it's" when it should be "its", but where do so many people get the idea that there is an apostrophe in these Spanish town names?
 
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hal_cpt

Wandering South African in Gelderland
Year of past OR future Camino
Past: Frances (2013),Portugues (2017)
Future: St Olav (Norway) (2019), VF (2022)
Randomly, my sister-in-law has one of those surnames that is apostrophised when it's from Ireland and not when it's from Scotland. She is Scots. People always get it wrong.
 

jungleboy

Spirit of the Camino (Nick)
Year of past OR future Camino
Francés 2017
Primitivo 2018
Madrid 2019
Kumano Kodo 2019
Português 2020
Why do I see O'Cebreiro and O'Pedrouzo so often on the internet?

I would guess it's because people don't realise that 'O' is the (masculine singular) definite article in Portuguese and Galician Spanish and assume it should be connected to the word that follows.
 
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Year of past OR future Camino
Frances(2006) Portugues(2013)
San Salvador (2017) Ingles (2019)
53077

I was trained as a Primary School teacher in the 60s. Shortly thereafter I noticed the escape of the apostrophe. It had somehow managed to insinuate itself into placards, signs, letters: you name it, they all had extraneous apostrophes . The slippery slope.
You have to choose your battles, and I gave up on that one long ago. Just try to i'g'n'o'r'e them. Pax.
 
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Bert45

Active Member
Year of past OR future Camino
(2003) Francés, (2014) Francés, (2016) Portugués , (2016) Aragonés, (2018) del Norte to Primitivo,
Brierley's popular guidebook, that's why. That's how many people learn the name of the location, see it again and again, and it sticks:

View attachment 53078

Source: 2015 edition
That has to be the explanation! Thank you! But notice that the name is given correctly where the height of the mountain is given. I bet he copied and pasted it. I don't have Brierley – did he get O Pedrouzo wrong, too?
 
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To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
Did he get O Pedrouzo wrong, too?
No, it's just called Pedrouzo in my 2015 edition of Brierley. I've read that O Pedrouzo is the Galician name and Pedrouzo is the standard Spanish name.

Just like other languages, in the case of bilingual foreign locations, English often takes the name from a historically dominant language, so Pedrouzo is presumably correct in English. These rules are vague or non-existant for largely unknown places, and they are better known for places such as the town called A Coruña (Galician), La Coruña (Spanish), Corunna (English), and La Corogne (French).
 
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Year of past OR future Camino
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From a contemporary English Style Guide that is used by people who have been made aware of the political sensitivities of foreign geographical names in English:

Write Seville. Otherwise use native spellings, e.g. Córdoba, Irún. Use the Catalan names Girona and Lleida, and the Galician names A Coruña and Ourense, as these are now the official Spanish names for the cities and provinces also known as Gerona, Lerida, La Coruña and Orense (see Ley 2/1992, de 28 de febrero, por la que pasan a denominarse oficialmente Girona y Lleida las provincias de Gerona y Lérida and Ley 2/1998, de 3 de marzo, sobre el cambio de denominación de las provincias de La Coruña y Orense).
And early 20th century authors like Georgiana King and Walter Starkie referred to Cebrero, no i, no O and no apostrophe. 😊
 
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Pelegrin

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016
From a contemporary English Style Guide that is used by people who have been made aware of the political sensitivities of foreign geographical names in English:

Write Seville. Otherwise use native spellings, e.g. Córdoba, Irún. Use the Catalan names Girona and Lleida, and the Galician names A Coruña and Ourense, as these are now the official Spanish names for the cities and provinces also known as Gerona, Lerida, La Coruña and Orense (see Ley 2/1992, de 28 de febrero, por la que pasan a denominarse oficialmente Girona y Lleida las provincias de Gerona y Lérida and Ley 2/1998, de 3 de marzo, sobre el cambio de denominación de las provincias de La Coruña y Orense).
And early 20th century authors like Georgiana King and Walter Starkie referred to Cebrero, no i, no O and no apostrophe. 😊
In Franco's time the official name was El Cebrero and Piedrafita del Cebrero.
In relation to O'Something, 20 years ago most Galician restaurants were O'Pazo,O'Xeito, etc I think to seem more international.
 

Bert45

Active Member
Year of past OR future Camino
(2003) Francés, (2014) Francés, (2016) Portugués , (2016) Aragonés, (2018) del Norte to Primitivo,
It leads to a bigger question. Why do we change the names of foreign (big) cities? And why do they change the names of ours? For example: Rome, Florence, Venice, Dunkirk, Lyons and Londra, Londres, Edimburgo. It would be difficult (for us) if we kept to the local spelling of Beijing, though.
 
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JabbaPapa

"True Pilgrim"
Year of past OR future Camino
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Why do I see O'Cebreiro and O'Pedrouzo so often on the internet? It's bad enough to see "it's" when it should be "its", but where do so many people get the idea that there is an apostrophe in these Spanish town names?

Because it's the Camin'O de Santiag'O of course !!!

The its and it's errors are usually typos and auto-correct glitches -- though frustratingly they're also often straightforward mistakes 😩
 

Pelegrin

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016
With or without apostrophe O Cebreiro is a magic place for me. When I travel from Madrid to my homevillage in Galicia I always stop there to charge my battery of positive energy. I'll be there next week !!!

A few pilgrims last Wednesday in O Cebreiro, around 15 per day according to the woman in Venta Celta.
 
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Year of past OR future Camino
2002, Toulouse/Aragon 2005, Cami S Jaume/Aragon 2007/9, Mont Saint Michel/Norte/Vadiniense 2011, Norte/Primitivo 2013, Norte/Primitivo 2014. Norte 2015, Cami S Jaume/Castellano-Aragonese 2016
It leads to a bigger question. Why do we change the names of foreign (big) cities? And why do they change the names of ours? For example: Rome, Florence, Venice, Dunkirk, Lyons and Londra, Londres, Edimburgo. It would be difficult (for us) if we kept to the local spelling of Beijing, though.

Custom and historical usage. There is no rhyme or reason. In recent years, we have much strength of opinion suggesting that we use the local name (watch the sparks when one says Bombay rather than Mumbai) but this does get to be problematic when there is more than one version. Years ago I was stomping through the woods out of Markina (or perhaps I was gently gliding out of Marquina) when I was invited to join a party of workshopping drama teachers at a lunch at roadside asador-- when I told them that I would be stopping in San Sebastian, I was corrected quite firmly that it was Donostia. After some discussion they told me that I perhaps should call it Saint Sébastien if speaking French (our common language at the table) or Saint Sebastian in English, for using San Sebastian would suggest that I supported Castilian centralization, but nobody would understand me if used Donostia.
 

Bradypus

Moderator
Staff member
Year of past OR future Camino
Too many and too often!
After some discussion they told me that I perhaps should call it Saint Sébastien if speaking French (our common language at the table) or Saint Sebastian in English, for using San Sebastian would suggest that I supported Castilian centralization, but nobody would understand me if used Donostia.

That sounds very familiar. Back in 1990 on my first Camino there was very little official recognition of minority languages or provincial autonomy in Spain. Government was still very centralised and authoritarian. Road signs were almost all in Castellano without the Basque or Gallego equivalents which are common today. You could plot your position on the map fairly well from the graffiti on road signs: which language had been used in the hand-painted text replacing the Castellano words that had been obliterated, or by which part of "Castilla y Leon" had been blanked out :rolleyes:
 

Pelegrin

Veteran Member
Year of past OR future Camino
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016
That sounds very familiar. Back in 1990 on my first Camino there was very little official recognition of minority languages or provincial autonomy in Spain. Government was still very centralised and authoritarian. Road signs were almost all in Castellano without the Basque or Gallego equivalents which are common today. You could plot your position on the map fairly well from the graffiti on road signs: which language had been used in the hand-painted text replacing the Castellano words that had been obliterated, or by which part of "Castilla y Leon" had been blanked out :rolleyes:
The are still some hand painted corrections in the Galician language area of Leon: Veiga (Vega) de Valcarce, Perexe (Pereje).
And in Galicia by those who like more the previous name Cabañas (Cabanas).
 

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