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The big map o the Caminos de Santiago

A new threat to my pilgrim tolerance and zen-like state of relaxation

Rich1

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (May 2015)
Camino Frances (2016-2018)
A complicated Camino from Madrid (Aug/Sep 18)
#1
So...
I'm fine with snoring - it gives me the giggles
People going to the loo in the night - well that's me too
Alarms going off - some pilgrims just like to leave early and don't like the heat
Alarms going off for the 2nd time - I've learnt to take a deep breath
Noisy packers - we're not all blessed with good admin, with good drills.
Even lights I've learnt to tolerate.

But...people taking showers at 05:00 when the showers are within the dorm, waking absolutely everyone up? I didn't tolerate that very well last night!!

Multiple deep breaths were barely enough and prolonged prayers were required as I whispered "Buen Camino" through clenched teeth!!!

Ho hum...we learn new lessons every day.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Future (2018)
#4
That's messed up. I could not do that. The only way of getting positive thoughts out of a situation like this with such monsters of selfishness, is to think that they probably mess up like this in many aspects of their life. Because they simply don't have that self awareness. Therefore they miss out in lots of ways that you....do not.
 

RJM

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
A few times, but soon again I hope....
#5
I can probably count on one hand the times I encountered morning shower pilgrims in albergues. So infrequent on hundreds of nights in albergues that quite honestly barely worth remembering. I certainly never let it spoil my day/night. As the old saying goes, "don't sweat the small stuff". A fellow pilgrim taking a shower in the morning would definitely be classified as "small stuff". Besides, it is a dormitory existence when you choose to stay in an albergue. Different people have different habits. Tolerance and non-judgement are virtues. Who knows, maybe you do things that they do not like.
I remember taking morning showers myself a couple of times, perhaps (was I monster or selfish for doing that?). Like I said, non-memorable events. Just needed a wash-up before I set out for another beautiful day walking, and walking by far is the most important part. Not whether or not I had a great time on a bunk bed in a room full of strangers, lol.
 

Anamiri

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances
#6
It would never occur to me to shower in the morning either. But one member of our Camino family did that. She didn't shower when we arrived in the afternoon, but put on clean clothes, and then showered in the morning before she left.
Didn't make sense to me, but seemed to work for her. By the time I finished each day I was totally soaked with sweat, and in desperate need of a shower before sitting down with other people for a meal.
 

Rich1

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (May 2015)
Camino Frances (2016-2018)
A complicated Camino from Madrid (Aug/Sep 18)
#7
To me , dorm life is about fitting in with everyone else as much as possible. Essentially majority rules.
It requires tolerance and patience but also requires leaving selfish behaviour, as much as possible, at the doors.
Treat your fellow pilgrim as you'd want them to treat you...
 

RJM

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
A few times, but soon again I hope....
#8
To me , dorm life is about fitting in with everyone else as much as possible. Essentially majority rules.
It requires tolerance and patience but also requires leaving selfish behaviour, as much as possible, at the doors.
Treat your fellow pilgrim as you'd want them to treat you...
"Fitting in"? Conformity? I would say that a considerable amount of pilgrims are of the non-conformist crowd. That is if one were to go about categorizing people.
As far as majority rules, what if you were the only one that morning that was bothered by the pilgrim's early shower? What if it was just you and say three other pilgrims? The rest being like me, and live and let live. Different strokes, so to speak. Three or four would probably not be the majority in an albergue room. Probably.
Again, I figure I get what I pay for. I pay 5-10 euros to sleep on a bunk in a room full of strangers I expect a bit of eccentric behavior. Besides, I have certainly stayed in a lot less desirable locations than a pilgrim's albergue.
 

Marbe2

Active member
Camino(s) past & future
2015 SJPD to Burgos
2017 Leon to Santiago
Pamplona to Santiago Mar. 2018
Burgos - SCDC (Oct 18)
#9
There are many albergues that also have private rooms. If you find yourself beginning to loose it, splurge for a private or even a shared room where you can catch up on sleep deprivation from all the noise.
 
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Rich1

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (May 2015)
Camino Frances (2016-2018)
A complicated Camino from Madrid (Aug/Sep 18)
#10
Whilst I agree in principal to all points made - I still think there comes a point where behaviour crosses the line. If I was the only one woken up and bothered then I would be in the minority and that is my problem.

I do wonder though that if it's ok to wake the entire dorm up early ( which it pretty much did), is it ok to say get hideously drunk and slam into the dorm at 1am? Or talk on the phone in the night? Or"make out" in the dorm? I know I'm probably being devil's advocate here, but there must be a line somewhere beyond which behaviour is unacceptable. What is eccentric behaviour and what is simply rude or unacceptable?

I will climb off the soapbox now!!
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (2015); Camino Norte/Primitivo (2016); Camino Frances (2017); Le Puy (June 2018)
#11
I never encountered someone taking a morning shower in over 20 weeks on various caminos. I'm sure the annoyance would depend on your bunk's proximately to the bathrooms and I'm sure every albergue/hostal is set up differently with the layout. Hopefully you will not have this experience again!
 

Tincatinker

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Lots ;0)
#13
Last year in the old municipal in Irun, a cramped little place as veterans will recall, we were mostly all awaken twice in the night by some poor pilg who had obviously dined well but not wisely. And then again at about 5 am by somebody showering. Veterans again will recall the clear signs in multiple languages saying "No Morning Showers". The volunteer hospitalero on sleep-over duty that night had clearly had enough: as he hammered on the door of the shower and woke the few who were not already awake. And even he was stunned into speechless silence by the showeree's explanation: "But its not morning yet..." Desayuno that morning was a grumpy affair.
 

truenorthpilgrim

"Adventure is Worthwhile" - Aesop
Camino(s) past & future
C. Frances (2016)
C. Finesterre (2016)
#14
"And even he was stunned into speechless silence by the showeree's explanation: "But its not morning yet..."

That is funny--can't argue with that...I mean you could, but I'll admit that's a pretty creative excuse.

There was some annoying behavior during my camino-a woman speaking very loudly on her cell when the lights were off in Estrella, and at Orisson one woman was oblivious to a pilgrim napping right in front of her in the afternoon, proceeding to talk loudly (yes it was the daytime, but come on, look around).

I found personally the Camino was the microcosm of the macrocosm. My patience was tested a handful of times and I'll admit there were a few instances where I was less than graceful in my reactions (a bunch of very young folks were literally partying the next room over, waking up our room. I took one for the team, climbing out of my bunk and going next door, scolding the kids). I have never felt older or grumpier but holy hell, those kids were so inconsiderate. I'll admit the next morning I felt a bit sheepish and crabby. I didn't mean to be so stern, but being woken up when I just got to sleep sends me over the edge.

The thing that always kept me from going overboard (except the time above, ahem...) was knowing the next day would bring me to a different town, a different bed and different people. It wasn't worth getting all worked up over those things, because very soon it would be a different memory.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
Future (2018)
#15
If someone woke me at 5am by showering, I would wait for them to come out the shower and then I would drape my sleeping bag gently around their shoulders and return to my empty bunk. I would seek out the showeree later and apologise for not having a warmer bag.
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF: (2001, 2002, 2004, 2014). Hospitalera: 2002, Ponferrada. 2004, Rabanal del Camino.
#16
So...
I'm fine with snoring - it gives me the giggles
People going to the loo in the night - well that's me too
Alarms going off - some pilgrims just like to leave early and don't like the heat
Alarms going off for the 2nd time - I've learnt to take a deep breath
Noisy packers - we're not all blessed with good admin, with good drills.
Even lights I've learnt to tolerate.

But...people taking showers at 05:00 when the showers are within the dorm, waking absolutely everyone up? I didn't tolerate that very well last night!!

Multiple deep breaths were barely enough and prolonged prayers were required as I whispered "Buen Camino" through clenched teeth!!!

Ho hum...we learn new lessons every day.
At least you're out there.

Buen camino.
 

RJM

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
A few times, but soon again I hope....
#17
All the griping and such about pilgrim's at times eccentric, and yes downright rude behaviour (I am not in total disagreement) in albergues really is a moot point. It will always occur. Those that have walked the Camino, especially the Frances in a peak month already know that. Those that are reading this thread that have not walked it, and are planning to? Get used to it. You will encounter it, and if it really, really bothers you, I suggest perhaps arranging private accommodations. If not you will have to learn to roll with punch. Get used to it, and get over it. People will be people.
"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change"
;)
 

RJM

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
A few times, but soon again I hope....
#20
If someone woke me at 5am by showering, I would wait for them to come out the shower and then I would drape my sleeping bag gently around their shoulders and return to my empty bunk. I would seek out the showeree later and apologise for not having a warmer bag.
Not sure that would be a good idea for so many reasons. If some strange man walked up to me as I was exiting the shower or just out the shower and tried to drape anything around any part of me, things may get ugly.
Best to just let things like that go. The early morning shower pilgrim will be out your life shortly, and quite possible you may never see them ever again. More important things to worry about, such as whether there will be coffee available in town or at the next town.
 

RJM

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
A few times, but soon again I hope....
#21
Well (says the devil on my left shoulder) if it makes you feel any better, the person will probably end up with horrible blisters! Showering in the mornings leads to damp, soft feet, which leads to blisters.

:::evil chuckle:::
Every time I stay in private accommodations I always showered again in the morning before I started walking. Felt good and woke me up. Dried my feet. Little bit o powder or vaseline. I never had a blister problem. That is probably an old wive's tale. Like soaking your knuckles in pickle juice makes them tougher (boxer's).
 

Marbe2

Active member
Camino(s) past & future
2015 SJPD to Burgos
2017 Leon to Santiago
Pamplona to Santiago Mar. 2018
Burgos - SCDC (Oct 18)
#23
Whilst I agree in principal to all points made - I still think there comes a point where behaviour crosses the line. If I was the only one woken up and bothered then I would be in the minority and that is my problem.

I do wonder though that if it's ok to wake the entire dorm up early ( which it pretty much did), is it ok to say get hideously drunk and slam into the dorm at 1am? Or talk on the phone in the night? Or"make out" in the dorm? I know I'm probably being devil's advocate here, but there must be a line somewhere beyond which behaviour is unacceptable. What is eccentric behaviour and what is simply rude or unacceptable?

I will climb off the soapbox now!!
Rich1, if you felt the persons behavior was inappropriate, crossed a line, then you could have kindly made them aware of it....Before you left the Albergue...not out of Anger...but mentioned that he. might not have considered the noise that was being projected into the common area and how if impacted you.

You are preaching to the choir, here, so to speak. It may be beneficial for novice caminoists who may be planning on staying in albergues. However, if you are thinking that a pilgrim crossed the line of appropriate behavior then you might have spoken with him about it?
 
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Camino(s) past & future
'Portuguese,Frances,Norte,Salvador/primitivo,Le puy, Inglés, CDM, Invierno, Fin/Mux, VDLP spring19
#24
Hi @Rich1
Nothing wrong with telling us how you felt.
I see it was the last straw for you . One way of clearing the feelings and setting out knowing you’ve made others reading this,aware of how their actions can effect some people.
Buen Camino
Annie
 

davebugg

"When I Have Your Wounded" - Dustoff Motto
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances...
Sept. 2017: SJPdP to Burgos
Sept./Oct. 2018: SJPdP to Santiago de Compostela
#25
I admit that my patience can wear a bit thin with aggravations by obliviots who seem utterly immune to commonsense courtesies. I also have a budget built around finding accommodations for those times when I am frayed and feeling ill-tempered and need to be by myself -- including an en suite bathroom. :)

I don't want to waste time howling at the wind and screaming at the sky with internal anger. Private rooms do help :)
 

hel&scott

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
2004 St Jean - Santiago, 2008 &18 Seville - Finesterre, 2010 Ferrol - Lisbon, 2012 from Cartehenga.
#26
I howl at the wind and scream at the sky, but not out of anger at other pilgrims.

Sometimes I roll on the grass too, just because it feels good. I think Imust have been a dog in an early life.
 

Tarnz

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Aiming for 2022
#27
Great reading all these posts,i'm a few years off from doing my 1st CF and doing lots of research and reading,was just thinking today as I had my morning shower as I like an evening shower and then a morning shower to wake me up,The thought popped into my head,how will I survive with no morning shower...hehehe better cut back to 1 a day as pre training. Buen camino :)
 

Kanga

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata, Portuguese.
#28
Hot water is limited in albergues, and electricity is expensive. So for both reasons it is considerate to limit showering to cover the necessities, so to speak! Not that there is too much chance of overdoing it; many albergues have "push the knob" showers - you have to keep pushing them to keep the water flowing. One reason it is lovely to splurge and get a private room with ensuite every now and then.
 

RJM

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
A few times, but soon again I hope....
#29
Great reading all these posts,i'm a few years off from doing my 1st CF and doing lots of research and reading,was just thinking today as I had my morning shower as I like an evening shower and then a morning shower to wake me up,The thought popped into my head,how will I survive with no morning shower...hehehe better cut back to 1 a day as pre training. Buen camino :)
What time, how many times, and how long you stay in the shower at an albergue has many variables.
I have been the lone pilgrim (or been with only 2-3 others) before at albergues capable of housing 20-30. That has even occurred during the peak pilgrim season. The albergue so empty you can shower anytime you want. Nobody cares. Rare, occurrence, but happened a few times. Certainly more common if you walk in the less popular months, such as winter etc.
I have also been (as all pilgrims have) in albergues very full, and a long queue of pilgrims waiting to shower (time to be a considerate pilgrim and make your shower quick and with minimal water used). That usually occurs during those few peak hours of the day when all the pilgrims seem to arrive, say about 1:00-3:00 pm. Later in the afternoon the showers and toilets are empty, as at night and early morning.
So there is no way for you to predict the availability of shower time on the Camino, and it is certainly something that does not merit planning or quite honestly given a thought to.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
Camino September-October 2017
#31
All I can say is good earplugs and a scarf over the eyes lol. Also I think it’s very interesting why certain things are the last straw or make us incredibly angry. I don’t think it happened to me on my Camino, but it happens frequently at home. When my anger flares up at something relatively small like this, it’s usually about something else, something bigger. That might be something to explore on your walk one day.
 

Rich1

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (May 2015)
Camino Frances (2016-2018)
A complicated Camino from Madrid (Aug/Sep 18)
#33
As the OP, I'll just clarify that the actions related did not make me angry - I simply thought them to be very thoughtless

However...those pilgrims with geese really make me mad :cool:
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Francis " 2018"
#34
So...
I'm fine with snoring - it gives me the giggles
People going to the loo in the night - well that's me too
Alarms going off - some pilgrims just like to leave early and don't like the heat
Alarms going off for the 2nd time - I've learnt to take a deep breath
Noisy packers - we're not all blessed with good admin, with good drills.
Even lights I've learnt to tolerate.

But...people taking showers at 05:00 when the showers are within the dorm, waking absolutely everyone up? I didn't tolerate that very well last night!!

Multiple deep breaths were barely enough and prolonged prayers were required as I whispered "Buen Camino" through clenched teeth!!!

Ho hum...we learn new lessons every day.
All I can say is good earplugs and a scarf over the eyes lol. Also I think it’s very interesting why certain things are the last straw or make us incredibly angry. I don’t think it happened to me on my Camino, but it happens frequently at home. When my anger flares up at something relatively small like this, it’s usually about something else, something bigger. That might be something to explore on your walk one day.
Pause breathe and smile !!
 

falcon269

no commercial interests
Camino(s) past & future
yes
#36
I simply thought them to be very thoughtless
And it only takes one pilgrim out of 20 or 100 to be thoughtless to everyone! The vast majority of pilgrims are courteous even though they have different eating, sleeping, and packing habits. The last 100km may be the worst because there are a lot of pilgrims who have not had a month living with strangers (who may be new friends). As you point out, taking it in stride is about all you can do (unless you are willing to ruin your positive camino attitude).;)
 
Camino(s) past & future
Nearly every year since 2006, often walking more than one route. 2018 was Camino #14
#40
Every time I stay in private accommodations I always showered again in the morning before I started walking. Felt good and woke me up. Dried my feet. Little bit o powder or vaseline. I never had a blister problem. That is probably an old wive's tale. Like soaking your knuckles in pickle juice makes them tougher (boxer's).
Or mmmmmmmaybe you just have feet of steel! lol!
There are always exceptions to the rule.
In my own experience with pilgrims on my trips, those who insisted on showering in the mornings were the ones who ended up with horrific blisters, so I can only speak from my experience.
 

Karl Oz

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances
Portuguese
Piamonte
Aragones
Elizabethpfad
#42
Well (says the devil on my left shoulder) if it makes you feel any better, the person will probably end up with horrible blisters! Showering in the mornings leads to damp, soft feet, which leads to blisters.

:::evil chuckle:::
Love it. Your scheudenfrade is infractious for your fellow pecorinos...
 
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#43
So...
I'm fine with snoring - it gives me the giggles
People going to the loo in the night - well that's me too
Alarms going off - some pilgrims just like to leave early and don't like the heat
Alarms going off for the 2nd time - I've learnt to take a deep breath
Noisy packers - we're not all blessed with good admin, with good drills.
Even lights I've learnt to tolerate.

But...people taking showers at 05:00 when the showers are within the dorm, waking absolutely everyone up? I didn't tolerate that very well last night!!

Multiple deep breaths were barely enough and prolonged prayers were required as I whispered "Buen Camino" through clenched teeth!!!

Ho hum...we learn new lessons every day.
 

kjbug

Lisa from Kansas "Tornado Lisa"
Camino(s) past & future
I hope to walk again in 2014
#45
So...
I'm fine with snoring - it gives me the giggles
People going to the loo in the night - well that's me too
Alarms going off - some pilgrims just like to leave early and don't like the heat
Alarms going off for the 2nd time - I've learnt to take a deep breath
Noisy packers - we're not all blessed with good admin, with good drills.
Even lights I've learnt to tolerate.

But...people taking showers at 05:00 when the showers are within the dorm, waking absolutely everyone up? I didn't tolerate that very well last night!!

Multiple deep breaths were barely enough and prolonged prayers were required as I whispered "Buen Camino" through clenched teeth!!!

Ho hum...we learn new lessons every day.
It’s not good for your feet to shower before a hike. They must be completely dry.
 

KJFSophie

My Way, With Joy !
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (2014 & 2015 ) ,Via San Francesco, Italy (2017 )
Camino Portugese (2018 )
#46
The alburgue I left behind this morning had the toilets in the same stalls as the showers, and only two of each . There is a group of 6 German young adults who thought it a good idea to shower in the morning, leaving the remaining 12 persons at the alburgue without the toilet in the morning. There is no word for this besides inconsiderate, and saying so does not make me “ intolerant”. We do not have to tolerate the rudeness of others.
 

iWander

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
March (2019)
#47
Hello everyone. I'm new here and this is my first post.
I was just wondering;
What is it about the morning shower that is annoying? I didn't think water running would wake me in the early hours and I prefer a morning shower, although I didn't think there would be time in the mornings.
My first Camino is in the planning stages. (March 2019) I'm trying to get as much info as possible. I thought soft earplugs would save me from snoring, bag rustling and flushing toilets. I never considered I would be disturbed by a person showering.

So here I sit, at the knee(s) of those more experienced than I. Please enlighten me.
 

Alta rose

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2018)
#48
So...
I'm fine with snoring - it gives me the giggles
People going to the loo in the night - well that's me too
Alarms going off - some pilgrims just like to leave early and don't like the heat
Alarms going off for the 2nd time - I've learnt to take a deep breath
Noisy packers - we're not all blessed with good admin, with good drills.
Even lights I've learnt to tolerate.

But...people taking showers at 05:00 when the showers are within the dorm, waking absolutely everyone up? I didn't tolerate that very well last night!!

Multiple deep breaths were barely enough and prolonged prayers were required as I whispered "Buen Camino" through clenched teeth!!!

Ho hum...we learn new lessons every day.
Yes for me it is before I even begin like Camino as I sit here in a Montreal Hotel after having my flight to Toulouse delayed five times and then canceled. So much for starting from st. John be at the Port this morning not even in the right country
 

falcon269

no commercial interests
Camino(s) past & future
yes
#49
I never considered I would be disturbed by a person showering.
It depends mostly on the arrangement of the dormitory. When toilets and showers are "down the hall," there is little disruption. When they are a door off the bedroom, it can be disturbing. It just depends. It takes pretty observant pilgrims to notice when showers have blocked the use of toilets. It is something of a rare occurrence, so I am not surprised that unaware pilgrims might notice that showering prevented using the toilet. It would be nice if pilgrims were fully conscious, but they just aren't. With six Germans and only two showers, it is strange that they would not arrange the showers to allow others to use the toilets. It must have been a bit of a relay team not to "share."
 
Camino(s) past & future
(2009): Camino Frances
(2011): Sevilla-Salamanca, VdlP
(2012): Salamanca-SdC, VdlP
(2014): SJpdP-Astorga
(2015): Astorga-SdC
(2016) May Pamplona-Moratinos; Sept.:Burgos-SdC
(2016): August/Sept: Camino San Olav (Burgos-Covarubbias), Burgos-Sarria
(2017): May: Portuguese; Sept: Pamplona-SdC
#50
A good meal, with some wine, earplugs and eyeblinds. Waking up comfortably. :)

And of course, you need to master the art of choosing your bed wisely: on the opposite side of the door/toilet/shower.
 

MichaelB10398

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy to Santiago de Compostela, Lourdes to SdC, SJPP to SdC
#51
I am not in control of the world around me. The only control I have is how I respond and act toward others and to the world. As I seek mercy for my own humanity I should expect to extend mercy for the humanity of others. Humans are not normal. The expectation of a uniform normalcy will always remain unfulfilled.
It is a challenge and will remain a challenge to seek to exceed our baser natures.
 
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Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances September/October (2013)
Podiensis (June 2018)
#52
Yes for me it is before I even begin like Camino as I sit here in a Montreal Hotel after having my flight to Toulouse delayed five times and then canceled. So much for starting from st. John be at the Port this morning not even in the right country
How incredibly disappointing! I assume you are flying with Airtransat..my experience flying with them to Itlay this spring for a hiking and cycling tour has made me look for alternate companies, though their routes are often very convenient. I hope it is resolved soon. Maybe there will be a blessing in there somewhere...:)
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances September/October (2013)
Podiensis (June 2018)
#53
On the Podiensis in June we stayed in a pilgrim gite in a 4-bed room. One of our roommates was a snorer and a smoker. Either she was getting up and going outside the building to smoke (which involved heavy door-slamming) or she was snoring loudly. At one point I gently nudged her so she woke up and began using her sleep apnea machine (!!!) which she was having transported along with a huge amount of baggage. In the morning she apologized and said she thought using the machine (chugging and gurgling) would be just fine. When asked, she said she was doing the Chemin in order to begin some life changes. We politely suggested she research gites with private rooms, and prayed for her while walking that day. Missing a night's sleep after a long day of walking (and it was the longest and hottest day of the walk) is really annoying, but I got over it. I often think of our roommate and hope she has been able to find her way to the renewal she sought. And for our part, when we needed a really good rest, we booked a private room.
 

Teresafun

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Del Norte Sept 2018
#54
So...
I'm fine with snoring - it gives me the giggles
People going to the loo in the night - well that's me too
Alarms going off - some pilgrims just like to leave early and don't like the heat
Alarms going off for the 2nd time - I've learnt to take a deep breath
Noisy packers - we're not all blessed with good admin, with good drills.
Even lights I've learnt to tolerate.

But...people taking showers at 05:00 when the showers are within the dorm, waking absolutely everyone up? I didn't tolerate that very well last night!!

Multiple deep breaths were barely enough and prolonged prayers were required as I whispered "Buen Camino" through clenched teeth!!!

Ho hum...we learn new lessons every day.
Well I’ve been so tired I don’t hear anything when I fall on the bed to sleep EXCEPT last nite. Don’t get me wrong, I love kids and it was Friday night, near the city square so very noisy outside. Then kids running thru the hostel at 10 pm waking people, then 4 am people who were staying with kids and the toddlers crying for 1/2 hr waking everyone. Needless to say my earplugs didn’t work
 

Mick McQueen

https://www.facebook.com/groups/
Camino(s) past & future
I am escorting the Roll of Honour (Afghanistan) on Camino France on 20 May from SJPDP
The Roll of Honour details the 41 young Australians who died on Active Service in Afghanistan. In the centenary of the ANZAC’s, the Roll of Honour will be escorted to 41 prominent places and events around the World, laying 41 Poppies at each location.
#55
Chuckling at all these people that shower in the morning and wonder why they get get blisters, because it softens their feet, not all but most, as for the early morning noise bandits it irritates but is usually just an indication that they are not organised and a reflection of their life. Small inconveniences though in the big picture of life on the Camino.
 

leichecerca

Can’t stay away
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Finisterre: May 2018
Camino Frances: April-May 2018
Camino Frances: April-May 2017
#56
Frequent morning showerer here. It *never* caused me blisters. Loved it because (a) I am not a morning person & it helped wake up stiff muscles/creaky brain/wash off night sweat, and (b) I was always assured of hot water. Never did it if the shower was too close to the beds or would block morning toilet access for other pilgrims in toilet/shower combo setups. The key here is not to pass judgment on *when* someone chooses to shower, but rather for all of us to remember the golden rule of the Camino: Be considerate of others.

Buen Camino, my fellow travelers.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Ch. d'Arles: Oloron Ste Marie to Aragones; Frances (2016); V.d.l.P.; Sanabres (2017)
#57
Many posters have suggested that booking a private room in a hotel will solve the problem of noisy neighbours and give them a good night's sleep. This is not always the case, particularly if you are on a budget and booking an inexpensive room. Wooden floors and doors crashing, people returning from late night meals and celebrations, no attempt by anyone to keep voices down, all may have you wishing you were back in the albergue, with the 10 o'clock curfew. My first two nights in Spain last fall were a bit of a nightmare, as I tried to get some sleep while those in rooms near to me came in late and noisy. The first night, a couple with a baby were arguing so loudly when they came in that they woke the baby, which howled (not so likely in an albergue). I am sure that I am not the only pilgrim who can afford (most years) to go on pilgrimage because accommodation is cheap in Spain. We must adjust to the challenges which that sometimes brings and be grateful for the opportunity.
 

BigCol

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
September (2018)
#58
On my first Camino now and I agree with the general consensus to be tolerant and remember that most people are probably not even aware of the impact because they do not often sleep in dorms. In my opinion, it is not ignorance it is perspective. If I was woken by a 5am shower I might lie there listening and think of the rain. I grew up in the country and I Love the rain.
I might also be grateful for an early start to get where I am going early. If I had a big night the night before I hope I would regret squandering my sleep rather than resent the person who is doing their Camino their way.
No doubt their are lots of thoughtless people out there but when you get lemons......make lemonade.
BTW I should also disclose that I love having a morning shower and until THIS post never thought it would actually disturb anyone, so the post has perhaps achieved its goal by educating me.
I do agree with the many posts about talking to pilgrims about unreasonable behaviour (excessive noise late at night) but consider the possibility that the pilgrim may not see their minor infraction of YOUR rules as giving you the right to take them to task and may not respond very well causing FAR more disturbance than a shower does. So I suggest ensuring the chat is REALLY worth it before having it.... otherwise call it a learning experience (In tolerance).
Beun Camino.
 

iWander

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
March (2019)
#59
These replies have been very informative but I must say I think it's a bit condescending to laugh at someone who showers in the morning because it causes blisters. At 50 years old, I'm certain I know how to properly dry my feet after a shower. Also, I don't think morning showers are indicative of being disorganized. They are indicative of being clean. Just saying.
In a perfect world, I shower morning and evening. This may change on the Camino. I would never want to keep someone from the bathroom. Time will tell I guess.
 

BigCol

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
September (2018)
#60
Many posters have suggested that booking a private room in a hotel will solve the problem of noisy neighbours and give them a good night's sleep. This is not always the case, particularly if you are on a budget and booking an inexpensive room. Wooden floors and doors crashing, people returning from late night meals and celebrations, no attempt by anyone to keep voices down, all may have you wishing you were back in the albergue, with the 10 o'clock curfew. My first two nights in Spain last fall were a bit of a nightmare, as I tried to get some sleep while those in rooms near to me came in late and noisy. The first night, a couple with a baby were arguing so loudly when they came in that they woke the baby, which howled (not so likely in an albergue). I am sure that I am not the only pilgrim who can afford (most years) to go on pilgrimage because accommodation is cheap in Spain. We must adjust to the challenges which that sometimes brings and be grateful for the opportunity.
Hi @Albertagirl ,
My advice is to choose smaller hostels. In Orisson a few nights ago, a nice American called Larry came up with the term "Camino Offset", in which you stay at the places that are NOT the recommended stage stops. As a result we have stayed in smaller or less popular hostels which means:
a) A more personal experience and
b) Less likely that someone will be a pain in the neck.
The cost is still the usual €10 or €15 so you don't have to break the bank to do it.
I don't really like huge crowds so having a more personal experience is working well so far. I have no doubt there will be times that is not practical.......but by then I will be more tolerant. That is My Camino.
 

movinmaggie

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (2015) Scotland GGW (2017) Primitivo
#61
We are all born with common sense (some more than others), but I wonder if it might help to have the albergues post some 'Thoughts On Courtesy' in the obvious places, or call them rules. Your unfortunate example could be the first rule of courtesy.....'Please, no morning showers'. Just a thought.
 

Jermann75

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances 2018
#62
Roncesvalles albergue was my first “introduction” to peregrinO life: lights automatically come on at 6am. I’m still confused about that.
 

vitalija

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Portuguese Coastal Route (2018)
#63
Maybe its just my opinion, but I also had some people quite loud in the dorms on my Camino, however, I think since common sense is not so common if people are a problem, you should get a separate hotel room or smth and dont put expectations high that all the people in the dorm will behave the way you like. Never understood these type of complaints from other peregrinos I met on the way.
 

Crossroads Travel

Crossroads Travel
Camino(s) past & future
Frances to Fisterra 2016 & 2017
Portuguese Porto to Fisterra 2017
Leon to Santiago 2018
#64
My take on it is go get a room if you are not prepared for all of the different behaviour, there is no common courtesy or common sense or any other category when you are talking worldwide audience ... every culture has its differences, pretty simple yet annoying at the same time ... TOLERENCE is the word that comes to mind ... I must say though after experiencing all of what you are saying plus after having to listen to a German couple have sex, then a shower one morning before they left at 6am, then another day a young Italian guy, solo, relieve his pent up sexual energy in a room where the beds were so close we were almost sleeping together then another young couple canoodling almost all night ... I decided it was time to get a room! If you find someone that wants to share you can still in some places get a twin room and it is not totally out of reach. BUEN CAMINO
 

falcon269

no commercial interests
Camino(s) past & future
yes
#65
Roncesvalles albergue was my first “introduction” to peregrinO life: lights automatically come on at 6am. I’m still confused about that.
Particularly during the "season," pilgrims want to be on the trail early, so the wake up time is early. From the point of view of the hospitaleros, their work day goes from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. Midday is the only time for cleaning, resupply, and bit of personal time. They typically want the place empty by 8:30 a.m. or so, requiring reveille at about 6 a.m. It is easy to slip into thinking that only the pilgrim counts, but you can be certain that hospitaleros, bartenders, cooks, and merchants do not view it that way. The "customer" is not always right; actually, in Spain he is rarely right!;)
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Francis SJPP
April 2016, August 2017, May 2018
Camino PortuGUESE
May 2019
#67
I can probably count on one hand the times I encountered morning shower pilgrims in albergues. So infrequent on hundreds of nights in albergues that quite honestly barely worth remembering. I certainly never let it spoil my day/night. As the old saying goes, "don't sweat the small stuff". A fellow pilgrim taking a shower in the morning would definitely be classified as "small stuff". Besides, it is a dormitory existence when you choose to stay in an albergue. Different people have different habits. Tolerance and non-judgement are virtues. Who knows, maybe you do things that they do not like.
I remember taking morning showers myself a couple of times, perhaps (was I monster or selfish for doing that?). Like I said, non-memorable events. Just needed a wash-up before I set out for another beautiful day walking, and walking by far is the most important part. Not whether or not I had a great time on a bunk bed in a room full of strangers, lol.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Francis SJPP
April 2016, August 2017, May 2018
Camino PortuGUESE
May 2019
#68
A good thread...After 3 CF's I've never had anyone take a morning shower and one reason is we don't want soft moist feet starting off in the morning. I find I become more intolerant from Sarria to SC where some unseasoned pilgrims are loud, play their music on the way out loud and spit on the pathways.....then I bite my tongue and walk faster then usual and do long days to get to SC quickly. (Grumpy older pilgrim.)
 
Camino(s) past & future
Portuguese coastal
#69
Hello everyone. I'm new here and this is my first post.
I was just wondering;
What is it about the morning shower that is annoying? I didn't think water running would wake me in the early hours and I prefer a morning shower, although I didn't think there would be time in the mornings.
My first Camino is in the planning stages. (March 2019) I'm trying to get as much info as possible. I thought soft earplugs would save me from snoring, bag rustling and flushing toilets. I never considered I would be disturbed by a person showering.

So here I sit, at the knee(s) of those more experienced than I. Please enlighten me.
Hi.. i walked my first Camino last summer and always showered in the afternoon/evening. It feels good to shower after walking all day. I don’t recall anyone showering in the morning.
 

yaying

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
somehow someday...
#70
there is no common courtesy or common sense or any other category when you are talking worldwide audience ... every culture has its differences, pretty simple yet annoying at the same time
nailed it... often common/general confuses as 'all'... in a family what is only common is the last name, but the rest of it different name, height, habit, age etc.
 

BigCol

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
September (2018)
#71
Hello everyone. I'm new here and this is my first post.
I was just wondering;
What is it about the morning shower that is annoying? I didn't think water running would wake me in the early hours and I prefer a morning shower, although I didn't think there would be time in the mornings.
My first Camino is in the planning stages. (March 2019) I'm trying to get as much info as possible. I thought soft earplugs would save me from snoring, bag rustling and flushing toilets. I never considered I would be disturbed by a person showering.

So here I sit, at the knee(s) of those more experienced than I. Please enlighten me.
Yep.... I agree
 
Camino(s) past & future
(2017)
#72
So...
I'm fine with snoring - it gives me the giggles
People going to the loo in the night - well that's me too
Alarms going off - some pilgrims just like to leave early and don't like the heat
Alarms going off for the 2nd time - I've learnt to take a deep breath
Noisy packers - we're not all blessed with good admin, with good drills.
Even lights I've learnt to tolerate.

But...people taking showers at 05:00 when the showers are within the dorm, waking absolutely everyone up? I didn't tolerate that very well last night!!

Multiple deep breaths were barely enough and prolonged prayers were required as I whispered "Buen Camino" through clenched teeth!!!

Ho hum...we learn new lessons every day.
These kind of incidents were one reason I abandoned municipal albergues for the smaller private ones. Yes, it was a bit more expensive, but the trade offs were well worth it. Smaller groups of 4 or so beds in a room, more respectful pilgrims, and smaller albergues(20 to 30 beds).
 

Barbara06

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Le Puy - Pamplona (2011-14)
VDLP (2015)
Portuguese (2015)
Francigena (2016)
Primitivo (2017)
#73
If you don't want this, there are so many beautiful more peaceful other caminos. When you choose to go on Camino Frances you can only expect this. It's a choice..
 
Camino(s) past & future
Zip
#74
There are many albergues that also have private rooms. If you find yourself beginning to loose it, splurge for a private or even a shared room where you can catch up on sleep deprivation from all the noise.

I think that's the most important point. For those of you who easily sleep through distractions - bravo, you have been gifted. But please remember that many people don't sleep as deeply as you and need that extra hour of sleep like it was air itself.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (Sept 2016)
SDC/ Finesterre/ Muxia (2016)
#76
I think the OP was merely venting

In a place where people can relate

He listed 6 things others do that he lets go of, and most all of those have long threads of discontent on this forum
And perhaps, as someone suggested, his tolerance dropped due to other factors

But his post title, his list of tolerances indicates he gets it

This appears to be merely a vent.

Without voicing an opinion on shoulds and should nots, just letting Rich1 know I hear ya
 

Rich1

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (May 2015)
Camino Frances (2016-2018)
A complicated Camino from Madrid (Aug/Sep 18)
#77
Thanks for the above 2 posts...It’s called British sarcasm ;)

Yes, I was venting and, at the time, I purely thought how inconsiderate the behaviour was. Because after all...no one died, no one starved, no one went thirsty.

It’s interesting watching the criticism coming in from those who suggest I should be more tolerant and shouldn’t criticise :D:cool:
 

volleyjanice

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
08/2013 St. Jean Pied de Port-Belorado, 08/2015 Burgos- Santiago/Finisterre/Muxia, 08/18 Portugese
#78
We were walking the Portugese route in August. One night a young couple realized that they had accidentally booked accomodation 50K away the next night and planned to get up really early. I thought it might be wise to speak to some of the other people in our room of approximately 16 and inquire as to their morning plans. My thought was that if most were also planning to arise quite early, then pehaps it would be better if we all skipped the pretense, got up and turned on the lights and got on with the process. It was generally a non commital group. Fair enough, off to bed we went.One gentleman had told us how he had "educated" a young fellow at a previous albergue about taking too long in the shower, informing him that we are a community and so we must think of everyone. Well guess who woke up early and sat on his bed taking inventory of everything in his pack and then performing some kind of foot care. He was not alone in his slow, rather noisy routine. Honestly people, if you have to get up early so that you can spend one or two hours shuffling in and out of the room, with a flashlight, and talking, then yes, you are inconsiderate. Pick up your pack, grab your bedding and take it out of the sleeping area. It is one thing to want to get an early start...or to stay up later, but organize yourself accordingly. Yes, staying in an albergue requires tolerating a variety of personalities and behaviours but it also requires thinking of others. Those that can't consider their fellow roommates are the ones that should seek alternate accomodation.
 

long trails

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances June 2016
Portugues April 2017
#79
So...
I'm fine with snoring - it gives me the giggles
People going to the loo in the night - well that's me too
Alarms going off - some pilgrims just like to leave early and don't like the heat
Alarms going off for the 2nd time - I've learnt to take a deep breath
Noisy packers - we're not all blessed with good admin, with good drills.
Even lights I've learnt to tolerate.

But...people taking showers at 05:00 when the showers are within the dorm, waking absolutely everyone up? I didn't tolerate that very well last night!!

Multiple deep breaths were barely enough and prolonged prayers were required as I whispered "Buen Camino" through clenched teeth!!!

Ho hum...we learn new lessons every day.
Live and let live my friend.

You should book your own private room in hostals or pensions if you cannot bare the personal choices of other people.
 

Rich1

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (May 2015)
Camino Frances (2016-2018)
A complicated Camino from Madrid (Aug/Sep 18)
#80
Honestly people, if you have to get up early so that you can spend one or two hours shuffling in and out of the room, with a flashlight, and talking, then yes, you are inconsiderate. Pick up your pack, grab your bedding and take it out of the sleeping area. It is one thing to want to get an early start...or to stay up later, but organize yourself accordingly. Yes, staying in an albergue requires tolerating a variety of personalities and behaviours but it also requires thinking of others. Those that can't consider their fellow roommates are the ones that should seek alternate accomodation.
Absolutely :)
 

Rich1

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (May 2015)
Camino Frances (2016-2018)
A complicated Camino from Madrid (Aug/Sep 18)
#81
Live and let live my friend.

You should book your own private room in hostals or pensions if you cannot bare the personal choices of other people.
I am generally very tolerant and patient. I enjoy staying in albergues. I probably snore a bit. I do get up early on occasion, but as per the above post, my bag is packed the night before, I pick up my pack and bedding and sort it all out outside of the dorm.

Personal habits and choices are fine but there is a line at which they become inconsiderate, and on occasion downright rude, to the majority
 
Camino(s) past & future
CF SJPdP to SdC
(May 2015)
CF Sarria to SdC
(May 2016)
CF SJPDP-SdC
(Apr/May 2018)
VdlP (2020)
#82
Live and let live my friend.

You should book your own private room in hostals or pensions if you cannot bare the personal choices of other people.
I do ;)

But a word of warning, be careful what you wish for!

I have stayed in e25 rooms that were great.
e70 rooms with noisy neighbors that were a nightmare. Almost driven to call the police.

Other places where 'groups' had booked in and would roll back in half drunk at midnight and then leave all their room doors open so they could still laugh and chat whilst in bed.......

You just can't tell, and price is certainly no indicator of the level of 'peace' you will have.... :oops:

It's a lottery out there :eek:
 

Kanga

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata, Portuguese.
#83
To put a positive spin on all this - I've been very grateful for some totally silent early leavers. One couple I remember in particular, who were often staying in the same dormitory as me. They were always gone before I woke but I was never aware of them leaving. They had their packs pretty much ready the night before, and I assume the last minute things they put into their packs outside, after leaving the dormitory area.
 

Rich1

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (May 2015)
Camino Frances (2016-2018)
A complicated Camino from Madrid (Aug/Sep 18)
#84
To put a positive spin on all this - I've been very grateful for some totally silent early leavers. One couple I remember in particular, who were often staying in the same dormitory as me. They were always gone before I woke but I was never aware of them leaving. They had their packs pretty much ready the night before, and I assume the last minute things they put into their packs outside, after leaving the dormitory area.
And that is exactly the point - it is very simple to leave quietly. Getting up early does not mean getting up noisily
 

Isca-camigo

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Various ones.
#85
Prepare everything the night before. You wake up, pick up your bag and sleeping bag, walk into a non sleeping area, do your self care routines, eat, go, it's not hard, it just needs a bit of foresight, self organisation and consideration.

Edit: Oops I have slipped into lecturing mode apologies to any people who's true message I missed.
 
Last edited:

ksam

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Portuguese '08, Frances '11, del Norte '14, Invierno '16, Ingles '17, Primitivo October 2018
#87
Let's talk about the bald Italian guy in the bunk below me carrying a portable hair dryer he used to dry (heat up?) every page in his guidebook early in the morning. (I have a picture of this somewhere)
OMG! I only remember on encounter with a blowdryer. And the complete shock in Hornillos when we all heard the sound coming from the ladies shower area! Hadn't heard or seen one in over two weeks at that point. Good for a laugh at least! Three days later I noticed she didn't have her hair dryer anymore!
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Ch. d'Arles: Oloron Ste Marie to Aragones; Frances (2016); V.d.l.P.; Sanabres (2017)
#88
Prepare everything the night before. You wake up, pick up your bag and sleeping bag, walk into a non sleeping area, do your self care routines, eat, go, it's not hard, it just needs a bit of foresight, self organisation and consideration.]

I am a long-distance walker (3 caminos: 800, 900, 1,000 km so far). I am also 70 years old and of average health and strength. I always walk in the fall, to avoid the summer heat, to which I do not adjust well as a Canadian. I try very hard to be quiet at night and if I get up before others in the morning. But, my clothes, washed at night after my shower, are virtually never dry before I go to bed. Nights are long and the best outdoor drying time is often over before I get them hung up. After I bring them in, I hang them all around my bunk to dry, and retrieve them and pack them in the morning. A few times, I have left things behind because they slipped off wherever I hung them and eluded my morning search. I use my flashlight, carefully screened to avoid disturbing others, to look under the bed and next to the wall if my bunk is against a wall. I shall never be able to pack my bag the night before. I am uncomfortable with the assumption that this is obligatory for the courteous pilgrim.
 

volleyjanice

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
08/2013 St. Jean Pied de Port-Belorado, 08/2015 Burgos- Santiago/Finisterre/Muxia, 08/18 Portugese
#89
Hello fellow Canadian! My feeling is that yes, you may have things to pack up, but there is no need to do it at your bed. Grab everything and take it out of the room to pack it to minimize the disturbance to others. I can only guess that perhaps people are in general sleeping a bit longer in the fall anyway, so maybe there is less of a problem with the really early risers? We have only walked in August, and people are getting up REALLY early to beat heat and get accomodation.
 

rhbear

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
Pamplona-Santiago (Sept-Oct 2017)
Pamplona-Burgos (Feb-Mar 2018)
Porto-Santiago (May2018)
#91
My friend made us leave our hotel in Los Arcos at 6 am the other day and thought she was nuts and we would be the only people on the trail. Boy was I wrong. Walking in the pitch black darkness to Sansol and I saw more bobbing headlamps than stars.

Great way to beat the heat but you don't see anything when walking in the dark.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances (2013)
#92
OMG! I only remember on encounter with a blowdryer. And the complete shock in Hornillos when we all heard the sound coming from the ladies shower area! Hadn't heard or seen one in over two weeks at that point. Good for a laugh at least! Three days later I noticed she didn't have her hair dryer anymore!
:) Please consider the woman whose hair may be thinning so badly that she needs the help of a hairdryer to make her feel suitably fit to face the day. Even on camino one may want to put one's best foot forward.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Frances planned for October 3-mid November (2018)
#95
If someone wakes me at 5 and I don't need to be up until 7 I would go back to sleep and treat it as a chance to have 2 hours extra sleep.
Oh, the envy I feel when I encounter people who can go back to sleep after being awakened. I have a switch in my head that somehow just goes "awake/sleep"...there's no switching back and forth. I'm bringing ear plugs, a buff which I'll use as an eye mask, and sleep aids (aka drugs). I pray I can go back to sleep but it's never happened before.
 

volleyjanice

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
08/2013 St. Jean Pied de Port-Belorado, 08/2015 Burgos- Santiago/Finisterre/Muxia, 08/18 Portugese
#96
Oh, the envy I feel when I encounter people who can go back to sleep after being awakened. I have a switch in my head that somehow just goes "awake/sleep"...there's no switching back and forth. I'm bringing ear plugs, a buff which I'll use as an eye mask, and sleep aids (aka drugs). I pray I can go back to sleep but it's never happened before.
For a minute there I thought I wrote this myself! Ear plugs, the buff eye mask, magnesium, melatonin, and if needed Theanine. I'm quite the babe when I get into my bunk!
 
Camino(s) past & future
April (2017)
#97
Don'tbe too harsh, maybe some people's muscle seize up overnight on those tiny bunks and require hot water to get moving again. Not all of us have young, supple or friendly morning muscles.
 

Al Daly

New Member
Camino(s) past & future
2018
#98
So...
I'm fine with snoring - it gives me the giggles
People going to the loo in the night - well that's me too
Alarms going off - some pilgrims just like to leave early and don't like the heat
Alarms going off for the 2nd time - I've learnt to take a deep breath
Noisy packers - we're not all blessed with good admin, with good drills.
Even lights I've learnt to tolerate.

But...people taking showers at 05:00 when the showers are within the dorm, waking absolutely everyone up? I didn't tolerate that very well last night!!

Multiple deep breaths were barely enough and prolonged prayers were required as I whispered "Buen Camino" through clenched teeth!!!

Ho hum...we learn new lessons every day.
Having finished my Camino in May, i would like to reassure any worried pilgrims that all can go well. As an older (72) pilgrim, i slept in albergues and in private rooms. The latter was because I developed a cough. They cost a reasonable amount and were available everywhere. Overall, my Camino was wonderful from every viewpoint with no problems in spite of the potential problems the forum had highlighted.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Planning on startting first time at e d of april start of may
#99
I think the majority of posts are displaying a blatant display of cartesian /newtionian socia thinking and should prob let themselves go of that way of thinking on the camino☺
 

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