Bedbug Question! Settle our debate!

[MaidinBham]

Hi @MaidinBham. I have seen this report and understand the focus on carcinogenic risk factors; but there are more recent reports in regards to military personnel. Nonetheless, I appreciate the link. Thank you.

My focus is in regards to myself and my own health issues; mainly my immune system, as my WBC count has been and continues to be extremely low. I do have personal medical reports, which state that the “suspected” primary cause has been environmental exposure. Proving that to Veterans Affairs is a very different matter, as it’s basically an insurance based system for us. I served 25-years, most of that in an infantry battalion, and we were forever dipping our uniforms. I just don’t want others to go through what I have.

From reading some of your post, I appreciate your position and why you choose to use these products. It is important that everyone makes their own decision in this regard. I just try to present an alternative opinion, as I worry that some new pilgrims, based off many of these threads, may feel overtly scared into using this or similar products.

Again, with my immune deficiency, I simply can’t use these insecticides. However, I understand why you choose to. I just wish there was a validated alternative.

Edited (Added after post): For what it's worth - I just did a quick search and found this small article on military uniforms: http://www.nature.com/jes/journal/v24/n6/full/jes201365a.html

Take care!

Dave

Yes David, I appreciate that you are immuno-compromised, and have read with interest your many posts.
I know there are other reports and scientific research out there from 2006 ?EPA data. And perhaps more updated info specifically related to permethrin treated battle uniforms of USA military. The fact remains that it IS being used based on scientific research available. The WHO have permethrin listed as one of 10 essential chemicals in the world.
Honestly, if I could live in a world free of insecticides and busy, happy honey-bees, I would in a heartbeat. But that is utopia, a world long since gone, and not the world in which we live. We can only hope that as the world changes with impact of human action that it does so in increasingly positive ways for the environment, and all living creatures.
Buen Camino,
Janice

 

[KristinSdV]

@BrienC the University of Sydney Department of Entermology. My stock-in-trade is evidence and facts.

Kanga
This reminds me of my panicked emails to Sydney Uni's Entomology Department a few years back whenI was convinced my husband had brought back bedbugs from a recent sojourn in Peru. Overnight, I became a bedbug expert. I installed Protect-a-Bed Bug Lock Encased Bed Base Protectors on every mattress in the house (and pillow protectors as well) and dusted diatomaceous earth (non-toxic) along the kickboards of each room and into the floorboard cracks.

I recall sending "specimens" of suspected BB dung up to Sydney Uni (plus photos) and receiving the reply that they hadn't found any evidence of BBs and also that if we did have bedbugs, we'd have seen them by now. It actually turned out that our cats had probably dropped a flea or two that had then bitten me and I had had an allergic reaction. We'd had some boxes of papers and junk stored under our bed for a while... Anyhow, I'm glad to say that I haven't suffered another bout of being bitten within the house. However, at the beach recently I was bitten by midges and came up covered with intensely itchy red welts the size of ten-cent pieces (Australian coin). So, I know I'm sensitive to insect bites and if there any BBs in any albergue, they will no doubt make a beeline for me. I must have entomologically attractive blood! Ha ha!

By the way , the advantage of Protect-a-Bed Bug Lock Encased Bed Base Protectors is that even if there are BBs already in your mattress, they get locked inside the protector and can't ever get out to bite you. And if you ever bring new BBs home, they can't get into your mattress in the first place! I sent my daughter off to live in university lodgings in Canberra with a Protect-a-Bed in her suitcase!

 

[capecorps]

Hello all,

My first Camino will be this May, along with two other friends of mine. We are walking the whole of the Frances and are worried about what we've heard about bedbugs. One of us is opting for a silk sleeping bag liner, though I'm concerned that this won't properly prevent bedbugs as they can still easily latch on to the outer sleeping bag as well as clothes (after all, they can still crawl through the hole for your head in the top of the liner). I have also researched permethrin, a spray that guards against bedbugs but it is a carcinogen and as such I'd really rather not use it. Can anyone prove me wrong with the silk liner? Do we really need to worry about bedbugs anyway?

Thanks!

 

[capecorps]

I’m always up for new experiences.

On my first Camino, I was rubbing my hands in anticipatory delight at the prospect of being eaten by a bedbug. I took no precautions and even went so far as to seek out those places that they were known to frequent. Sadly, in spite of my blandishments, I was not to their taste and those gourmands snobbishly turned up their noses and refused to bite – perhaps due to the unusually high alcohol and nicotine flavoring of the proffered fare. My disappointment was all the keener because all around me, my fellow pilgrims sporting their bed bug bites like battle honors, regaled each other with grand tales while I, my skin as smooth as a new born babe (albeit green with envy) nursed my jealousy with unrequited desire: right up there with the first time you asked a girl to dance in front of your buddies and she said: .... No. (Not speaking of personal experience, you understand). Spurned, rejected, I cried out to the heavens in agony at my thwarted desires: how sharper than a serpents tooth, etc.

Not easily deterred, I set out on my next Camino with a spring in my step and a hope in my heart that my wish would be granted. This time I was not disappointed. A brave bed bug took the first tentative bite, found it delicious and all his buddies set to with gusto. Good lads all, they telegraphed further down the Camino to their fellow bed bugs that a particularly tasty dish was headed their way. Not to be outdone, these lads sharpened their stings in eager anticipation and awaited my arrival with whetted appetite. Little did I know as I came walking jauntily into town and sitting down to a richly deserved cervasa and limon that countless beady eyes were sizing me up for that night’s dinner and closely observing where I would rest my weary limbs. Formidable trenchermen, they feasted far into the night.

What a disappointment! : there were no sulfurous boils, oozing pus filled sores or other fearsome maladies. Just a mild itching no worse than a mosquito bite easily ignored among all the other Camino delights competing for my attention. Still, even though they did not give my immune system a much needed workout, in this interconnected world we only now discovering, I’m sure that those satisfied diners left a hefty tip in the form of inoculation to some future dread disease I have yet to encounter.

M mmm ... I wonder what it would be like to be bitten by a bullet ant.

(Caution: this from someone who deliberately stuck his hand in poison ivy to experience the effects).

 

[Albertagirl]

@capecorps:
I found your post most amusing and apparently intending to minimize the occasionally fevered fear of bedbugs. However, what many of us fear is not being bitten, but rather bringing them home in our gear and having our home infested, with the danger that guests will be allergic and may prefer to avoid our abode, or we will be compelled to call in the exterminator at great expense. May you avoid these risks.

 

[Martyduc]

I have spent more than 80 nights in May/June in around 70 different Albergues in the last 2 years. I prefer the Municipal, Parrochial and low cost Private Albergues and have never come across any bed bugs. Maybe they are a Camino myth.

no they are not ,,,,, got bitten badly last sept on the meseta,,,,, and was using a treated liner,,, so yes bitten around the face and shoulders !!!!!!

 

[domigee]

@capecorps You could try shifting some stones in a hot spot before sitting down... The local scorpio population may be upset and suitably oblige your research...

 

[DavidsRetired]

@Martyduc, that’s very interesting, as it then questions the value of having treated gear. Despite your precautions, you were still bitten.

@MaidinBham, I understand your position, but I lean more towards what @Kanga stated and what I practice in my decision processes as well; it’s an individual decision, based off an understanding of the Risk, Reward factors.

If we are willing to accept a study on the positive benefits of a product, then we must be open enough to accept emerging findings to the negative. In regards to the WHO, I see that they have little options, especially when dealing with the impact of malaria in those impoverished nations. The reward in those cases, far outweighs the risk.

As noted, a concern for me, is that the current within this forum for the necessary use of these insecticides, is so Swift, that newcomers are swept into it, without any other considerations.

Contrary to the belief, which suggest that dried permethrin on clothing, does not leach into the body, the link excerpt below suggest otherwise. We can debate percentage of the product used, but that’s truly semantics.

http://www.nature.com/jes/journal/v24/n6/full/jes201365a.html

In many ways, wearing a treated uniform in the military for 30 or 40 (+/-) days, is no different than on the Camino. The difference is, the military does this repeatedly, whereas a pilgrim may do it once a year. I mention this, as it relates to the potential of deteriorating health concerns of over exposure in my case.

Regardless, this is just one of those debates, which is on going, and is completely a personal choice in the end.

Take care and all my best!

 

[Jacobus]

Bedbugs love silk. It's so soft on their tiny feet. And it makes no noise so they can attack without waking you.

Permethrin is sprayed on the outside of your sleeping bag not on your skin. Yes, it is poison but so is sugar in the amounts most people eat it. And for cancer causing products look no further than your fragranced laundry detergents, perfumes, lotions, creams, and ingredients in the back of the fast food and packaged food you eat. And for heavens sakes, avoid bacon.

Learn to spot bedbug sign and if you choose, use permethrin as an extra precaution.

Those who say they have not been bitten have just won the lottery. Ask those who HAVE been bitten if there are bedbugs. For some it is no worse than a mosquito bite. On others I've seen welts the size of a quarter with itching that will drive you mad.

For me the biggest concern is taking them back home, an expense that can quickly run into the thousands of dollars.

Don't be paranoid but don't be ignorant. Learn to spot the little buggers and take precautions. They've already begun to hatch and bite and it's early in the season.

I'm on my phone and can't post a link but if you Google 'Annie's Simple Life Bedbugs' you will find my blog on how to spot them with plenty of photos.

Buen Camino.

Love the comment about winning the lottery. I have been bitten on 2 different Camino's (del Norte and Frances). I know that one was the Albergue Jacques de Molay on the frances. believe me you would be well served to learn the sign and check your bedding regularily and learn whatr to do if you find them. Enlist the aid of fellow pilgrims who may have knowledge on the matter. PS you can get bed bugs anywhere including the highest level of hotels

Cheers and Buen Camino.

 

[nathanael]

All I can tell y'all is that I've done the CF three times and never seen a bedbug or had a bedbug bite.

then my fellow Camino hermano you are one of the lucky ones. even I have never been bitten by one cause I use permethrin . But I have seen them and I have done 5 CF. Last year they were also on the Camino del Norte.

 

[Mark Lee]

then my fellow Camino hermano you are one of the lucky ones. even I have never been bitten by one cause I use permethrin . But I have seen them and I have done 5 CF. Last year they were also on the Camino del Norte.

Yeah, but I never met anyone along the Way that had been bitten either. At least not at the albergues I was staying at. I'm starting to think that bedbugs on the Camino are like the legendary jackalope of the American southwest.
ain't luck if it ain't there

 

[domigee]

I don't think this is helpful @Mark Lee You were just lucky, enjoy !
I saw people bitten on my first camino. I was only bitten on my second camino. Third camino: I was a PAIN checking every nook and cranny and yes, in the albergues I'd left, people were bitten.
They are there, whether you acknowledge it or not

 

[C clearly]

Yeah, but I never met anyone along the Way that had been bitten either. At least not at the albergues I was staying at. I'm starting to think that bedbugs on the Camino are like the legendary jackalope of the American southwest.
ain't luck if it ain't there

I am curious, @Mark Lee ... Do you really disbelieve all of our accounts about encountering bedbugs?

 

[Devon Mike]

My experiences have been the same as Mark Lee. I accept that others have had bedbug problems, but I believe they are not everywhere just in some places.

Maybe I have been lucky staying in around 70 different Albergues in the last two years. I think it shows that bedbug problems may be found in a small percentage of places, and that the posts here reflect the problem side only, not the good side, so it is easy to think they are everywhere.

 

[koknesis]

I don't think this is helpful @Mark Lee You were just lucky, enjoy !
I saw people bitten on my first camino. I was only bitten on my second camino. Third camino: I was a PAIN checking every nook and cranny and yes, in the albergues I'd left, people were bitten.
They are there, whether you acknowledge it or not

yeah, they are there. of course not everywhere, but they may show up even in pretty reputable hotels. if that is the case, then they may serve as a real hard currency, if you catch them and stick to a piece of leucotape. just hand this piece over to the hotel manager next morning when checking out. normally your credit card will not be charged and apologies expressed.
this obviously wont work in albergues.
in general bedbugs, fleas, mosquitos, horseflies etc are just a little blood sucking animals, so I do not think one should be so concerned about them. another matter are ticks, which when infected and not removed quickly enough can cause severe health problems. but thank goodness, these are pretty rare in Spain. have a bed-bug-free buen Camino!

 

[Mark Lee]

I am curious, @Mark Lee ... Do you really disbelieve all of our accounts about encountering bedbugs?

Let's just say I think things on here get a wee bit exaggerated at times. Sure, the occasional bedbug bite is possible, but I also think a lot of the bites are the result of mosquito and flea encounters. No way do I think the bedbug populations on the Camino warrant walking around with a backpack and gear with the toxicity level of the average chemical plant.

 

[C clearly]

Let's just say I think things on here get a wee bit exaggerated at times. Sure, the occasional bedbug bite is possible, but I also think a lot of the bites are the result of mosquito and flea encounters. No way do I think the bedbug populations on the Camino warrant walking around with a backpack and gear with the toxicity level of the average chemical plant.

The topic is certainly of great interest here, and newcomers may have exaggerated concern, but I don't think there are exaggerated accounts of people getting bitten. If people google "bedbug bites" they will see photos of extreme cases that are not typical of pilgrim experiences. Rather, a typical situation on the Camino is a cluster of several itchy bites on the face or arms that have been outside your sleeping bag. For some of us, the reaction develops in a way that is quite unlike flea or mosquito bites, but there is no cause for panic! The bites will go away in a few days or a week.

I sympathize with your view that people overreact in their fear of bedbugs. However, my approach is not to overreact in the other direction, but to give factual information and sensible strategies to manage the risks. I am bothered when I see statements that are dubious or simply incorrect, when knowledge of the basic facts is enough to make the problem quite manageable for most of us. I don't use permethrin any more, mainly because I haven't seen much evidence that it works. I rely on occasional Deet on my own skin, isolation and heat treatment while on the Camino, and heat and cold treatment upon arrival home. I still get a cluster of bites every 2 or 3 weeks, but I don't let it ruin my Camino, and most importantly, I'm confident that I can protect my home. That gives me peace of mind with respect to the bedbug situation. (Other people get peace of mind by putting their heads in the sand, but the sand fleas would probably get me if I did that.)

 

[Mark Lee]

The topic is certainly of great interest here, and newcomers may have exaggerated concern, but I don't think there are exaggerated accounts of people getting bitten. If people google "bedbug bites" they will see photos of extreme cases that are not typical of pilgrim experiences. Rather, a typical situation on the Camino is a cluster of several itchy bites on the face or arms that have been outside your sleeping bag. For some of us, the reaction develops in a way that is quite unlike flea or mosquito bites, but there is no cause for panic! The bites will go away in a few days or a week.

I sympathize with your view that people overreact in their fear of bedbugs. However, my approach is not to overreact in the other direction, but to give factual information and sensible strategies to manage the risks. I am bothered when I see statements that are dubious or simply incorrect, when knowledge of the basic facts is enough to make the problem quite manageable for most of us. I don't use permethrin any more, mainly because I haven't seen much evidence that it works. I rely on occasional Deet on my own skin, isolation and heat treatment while on the Camino, and heat and cold treatment upon arrival home. I still get a cluster of bites every 2 or 3 weeks, but I don't let it ruin my Camino, and most importantly, I'm confident that I can protect my home. That gives me peace of mind with respect to the bedbug situation. (Other people get peace of mind by putting their heads in the sand, but the sand fleas would probably get me if I did that.)

I just don't really take too much an entomological or scientific approach to any aspects of the Camino when I walk it. I just grab a pack, a pair of trail runners and get to stepping. Bugs be damned.

 

[C clearly]

I just don't really take too much an entomological or scientific approach to any aspects of the Camino when I walk it. I just grab a pack, a pair of trail runners and get to stepping. Bugs be damned.

Easier to do when you don't have itchy red welts on your face!

 

[vlebe]

I`m not saying that some of you are lying but Im just amazed about how many of you have never had ANY problems with BBs in your caminos. To be more precise: I`m amazed by how many of you are just that lucky!!!

During my 200+ days walking along the camino I have had many problems with BBs.

From the mild ones (3 or 4 bites) up to to crazy infestations ( bites covering all my body).

To be precise: There was NONE of my caminos without at least a minor problem with BBs...

And for me, this is the ONLY problem that makes me really really grumpy and sad and horried when Im on the Camino...

There was a couple of times I truly considered giving up and going home as I couldnt get rid of them...

I found Summer and hot seasons to be more prone to have BBs being transported from refugio to refugio by the pilgrims...

I think they are also more prone to reproduction during summer ( I might be talking BS, if so please someone correct me).


I have never treated any of my gear with any product but next time I go to the Cmaino I`ll definitely consider revisiting these topics an protect myself.

Ultreya!!!

 

[Devon Mike]

I found Summer and hot seasons to be more prone to have BBs being transported from refugio to refugio by the pilgrims...

I think they are also more prone to reproduction during summer ( I might be talking BS, if so please someone correct me).

Ultreya!!!

That is an interesting thought. Maybe they are seasonal. In the last 2 years I walked in May and June so maybe that is why I never came across them.

 

[oldman]

This will always come up when you have a lot of people sharing the same space, so you should take your own precautions. In April 2013 I walked SJPP to Santiago, then to Finisterre, Muxia and Ferrol to Santiago then overnight in Santander on my way home and saw no sign of any bed bugs. Before I started from home I treated my gear with Permethrin and let them blow on the line for a couple of days, then when I returned home everything went in the spare Freezer in a black sack for two weeks ,you do not want to bring anything in to your house. I used a divan deep sided sheet ( 10 inch /250mm ) that went all the way over the pillow and the whole mattress and a silk bag linear from the Vietnamese silk company , ( took the sheet instead of the sleeping bag for the weight, I only had two cold nights in the 40 days and the weather was unkind snow and frost the first 10 days rain and sleet for the last 10. Last year again I started on the 14th May 2015 for 35 days with very similar weather at the start and finish , doing the same treatment on my gear but also was not aware of any bug problem. When I have a bad reaction even to Ant bite, would I take a chance going without the treatment simply No.
But as always its your Camino and you have to do it your way and hopefully come back and share it with the rest of us.
All information is knowledge.

Buen Camino.
Oldman

 

[DavidsRetired]

Not to fuel this, as I am sure people have and will continue to struggle with bed bugs. But in 3 Caminos, 2 in April/May 2013/14 and the last in Sep/Oct 2015, I have never seen a Bed Bug and never spoke to anyone who had been bitten. Don’t know what else to say in this regard – luck I suppose. So perhaps the question is; why do they bother some, and not others?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

never spoke to anyone who had been bitten

Written words in the Forum don't count??

 

[Marc Hamel]

I will happily use permethrin on my sleeping sheet, sleeping bag and backpack, secure in the knowledge that bedbugs prefer to bite those who put their faith in essential oils and magic incantations....

Not that permethrin is the be all and end all, there is increasing evidence of bedbug resistance. Direct application of heat is the best killer.

I soak my sleeping sheet and bag in permethrin (bought from a hiking store) and then hang them outside to dry. Once dry there is no smell or apparent residue. My backpack I spray with ant killer.....which happens to be permethrin.

Kanga, what do you use as a sleeping sheet? And where did you get it? Thanks - Marc

 

[DavidsRetired]

Written words in the Forum don't count??

Ha, that’s funny Certainly they count! I was looking at it from a literal sense, while on the Camino. However, now that I’ve jinxed myself, I will no doubt meet these wiley beasts in their hoards on day one, when I walk in 2017.

 

[C clearly]

However, now that I’ve jinxed myself, I will no doubt meet these wiley beasts in their hoards on day one, when I walk in 2017.

Maybe not. It is known that many people have no reaction to their bites. It is not known what proportion of people. So, you should treat your things when you get home whether you think you've encountered them or not.

 

[DavidsRetired]

@C clearly No worries there. My wife is a retired Preventive Medicine Technician (an enhanced Civilian Health Inspector) and she never lets me past the garage until “ALL” kit is wrapped and secured. I do check my kit rather diligently throughout the Camino, especially prior to flying out to Madrid. We can only do so much and manage as best we can.

I understand the risks, and am personally not worried about bed bugs. However, ticks are another matter entirely and I am not a fan of snakes, which I saw several of on my Sep/Oct 2015 journey. Regardless, I don’t let any of these issues detract from my Camino, as they are out of my control for the most part.

 

[Mark Lee]

Y'all don't get too scared seeing this.

 

[Mark Lee]

@C clearly No worries there. My wife is a retired Preventive Medicine Technician (an enhanced Civilian Health Inspector) and she never lets me past the garage until “ALL” kit is wrapped and secured. I do check my kit rather diligently throughout the Camino, especially prior to flying out to Madrid. We can only do so much and manage as best we can.

I understand the risks, and am personally not worried about bed bugs. However, ticks are another matter entirely and I am not a fan of snakes, which I saw several of on my Sep/Oct 2015 journey. Regardless, I don’t let any of these issues detract from my Camino, as they are out of my control for the most part.

You forgot to mention the bears, wild boar and wolves that are in northern Spain.

 

[DavidsRetired]

@Mark Lee, I just watched the 1st show in the 2nd series, of a History channel program called “Alone”, where participants are placed in the wild and to see who can survive the longest. A gentleman from Arizona stated prior to departure that Bears didn’t bother him and joked that the bears would need protection from him. Day 1 he stepped in fresh bear poop, and called the production team to come pick him up.

When/if I see a Bear on the Camino, I will see if I can get him to smile for the Camera as I slowly walk backwards, while telling him jokes: Did you hear the one about the pilgrim and the bed bug? (it’s a joke people – relax!) (Wild Boars... now that's a new ball game, and one I have some stories on; they are truly dangerous little beast!)

 

[Albertagirl]

Last fall, I walked over O'Cebreiro on what must have been the first day of the open season on wild boars. Around the one bar in the town where I stopped for the night were lined up several trucks with dog kennels in the back with the bodies of two or three monstrous boars on top leaking blood over the sides of the kennels onto the faces of the triumphant dogs. It was a chilling sight for a timid vegetarian. On the other hand, I have several times come across bears in the back country when hiking alone and have so far survived the experience - a combination of (sometimes) appropriate behaviour and dumb luck. I won't give up my planned excursion just because I share the neighbourhood with a grizzly bear, although that is what is recommended. But I haven't come across any bears, or live boars, while walking in Spain, and I would just as soon not.

 

[Mark Lee]

Last fall, I walked over O'Cebreiro on what must have been the first day of the open season on wild boars. Around the one bar in the town where I stopped for the night were lined up several trucks with dog kennels in the back with the bodies of two or three monstrous boars on top leaking blood over the sides of the kennels onto the faces of the triumphant dogs. It was a chilling sight for a timid vegetarian. On the other hand, I have several times come across bears in the back country when hiking alone and have so far survived the experience - a combination of (sometimes) appropriate behaviour and dumb luck. I won't give up my planned excursion just because I share the neighbourhood with a grizzly bear, although that is what is recommended. But I haven't come across any bears, or live boars, while walking in Spain, and I would just as soon not.

The wild boars (we call them feral hogs or boar hogs in Texas) can be big and bad, but the chance of one messing with you on the Camino is highly unlikely and quite often they are nocturnal in nature. That's why you need dogs to hunt them in the morning or later in the day.

 

[Pabloke]

I just like to add a fact.

Not seeing bites doesn't mean there aren't.

Bedbug's saliva contains an anticoagulant enzyme in order to ease the blood suction. Is this enzyme which provokes a reaction in our body's immune system. Some people may develop an allergy to this enzyme and show symptoms such as blotch, itching, fever or worse.

Others, simply don't show any symptom, but it doesn't mean they haven't been bitten.

 

[nathanael]

My experiences have been the same as Mark Lee. I accept that others have had bedbug problems, but I believe they are not everywhere just in some places.

Maybe I have been lucky staying in around 70 different Albergues in the last two years. I think it shows that bedbug problems may be found in a small percentage of places, and that the posts here reflect the problem side only, not the good side, so it is easy to think they are everywhere.

I was at a small hostel in Burgos for 3 days due to knee pain. the hospitalero an angel of a man asked only that I leave for half hour each day to clean. he gave me a bottom bunk and let me rest all day. above me was a girl that had bed bugs and carried them on to other places along the way. I know cause the place where next she went helped her get rid of them. why I didn't I get them from her when she was above me is due to the permetherin which I had spread before leaving home. those who are infested do carry them to the next place unless they get rid of them properly by hot wash and dryer.

 

[DavidsRetired]

I was at a small hostel in Burgos for 3 days due to knee pain. the hospitalero an angel of a man asked only that I leave for half hour each day to clean. he gave me a bottom bunk and let me rest all day. above me was a girl that had bed bugs and carried them on to other places along the way. I know cause the place where next she went helped her get rid of them. why I didn't I get them from her when she was above me is due to the permetherin which I had spread before leaving home. those who are infested do carry them to the next place unless they get rid of them properly by hot wash and dryer.

I think luck may have played a greater roll in you not being bitten. Although many use permethrin as a Bed Bug repellent, in actuality many studies indicate that it has little impact on them.

An excerpt from the link below: “We evaluated the repellency of three commercially available insect repellent or control materials and five nonregistered materials with the goal of identifying safe and effective bed bug repellents. The two commercial repellent products that contained 7% picaridin or 0.5% permethrin had little repellency against bed bugs.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24498754

They are pretty determined little beast. If you must use something, DEET is a far better deterrent.

 

[LastPilgrim]

Let me add my 2 cents on this topic as I have just come back from my first Camino (Frances) last week so the experience is very recent. I will try to focus on facts, share my observations and some suggestions for what they are worth - Perhaps it will be useful for other pilgrims on the Way.

1. Bed bugs in the Camino are no myth. Anyone claiming so look to me as playing a sad joke. I was bitten by them on three occassions during the last month starting with Burgos, then Carrion and finally somewhere close to Santiago. That also proves to me that the bed bugs were active (not in "winter-hybernation" mode) already for a while despite that the weather was not very warm yet (in fact, I am sceptical about the idea of winter making the BB much less active as most albergues that are used by pilgrims during winter keep it warm enough inside).
2. I have limited, but noticable body reaction to BB bites and I am a light sleeper so I would wake up when I feel being bitten even if I can confirm that the bite does not feel more than a mosquito bite (at least to me). In all of the cases I managed to catch and kill at least some of the BBs biting me. So I am sure that was BBs and their bite marks on my body.
3. The people who claim they never encountered the BB on the Camino are either of a) exceptionally lucky or b) have not noticed the bites nor the bugs. I have met people in the same albergues who did not think they ever been bitten, but after my advice to inspect their bodies carefully some found bite marks. For some people, the reactions are literally easy to miss.
4. That may lead to a (wrong, in my mind) idea that one may not care about the BB and their bites in virtual absense of one's body reaction, but there are two important points - the responsibility to not spread the BB along the Camino and the wish not to bring them home. Following the earlier advice of @Kanga and others (on another thread on BB) I did all I could after each encounter to minimize the possibility of both risks. I tumble dried at high heat all I could (including the backpack) and applied DEET to the rest. I even used the "sauna method" - walking into sauna with all my things that could not be tumble tried when sauna was available. I also informed the hospitaleros of the BB encounter so that they can take their measures.
5. I have no knowledge of what the hospitaleros did to counteract the spread of the BB at the albergues where I got bitten, but at least they were informed and had their chances. In some other places - and it happened to be some three places run by hospitaleiros from anglo-saxon lands, perhaps not a coinsidence - I witnessed some proof that they take the fight againgst BB spread seriously. In one place (Granon) they used hot steam regularly on the mattresses and the sleeping space, plastic bags for each backpack (Pieros) or claimed they offer extensive treatment procedure for those bitten and potentially carrying BB (Rabanal). I do not know if the albergues use chemicals (like permethryn or DEET), but I would suspect that some do (I noticed the spray bottles present at some).
6. Then there is a question that continues to spin in my mind - if my efforts to get rid of BB after each encounter were successful and I was each time attacked by a new sample of BB living in that albergue or not. I did not have any "protection" until I was bitten the first time. By the end of the journey I had permethryn-impregnated bedsheet, a spray bottle of 45% DEET and another spray containing permethryn plus other ingredients. What bothered me was that the last time I was bitten I was using the bedsheet and some DEET on my open body (that looked a nice and clean albergue and I did not spot the BB traces so I felt reluctant to use much protection there). Still I was bitten by 1 bug that I suspect has travelled to my pillow by the wall. And that raises a question if the BB are perhaps getting resistant to the chemicals as that bed bug(s) seemed not to care much.
7. Some advice on where to get the chemicals in Spain in case you decide to use them. I was surprised to have difficulty to find permethryn-based spray in the pharmacies in Spain, on the Camino given that BB must be not uncommon problem. I have gone to litteraly more than 10 pharmacies before finding such spray just during the last days of the journey, the name "Farma Zum Cinches y Pulgas". Before the best I was offered was a DEET based spray from GOIBI brand. It was supposed to be a suitable alternative to permethryn (although some doubts remain for me regarding its efficiency). The benefit of DEET is that you can spray it on the skin which is not recommended with permethryn, but DEET can damage some of the synthetic materials while permethryn doen't. I bought the anti-BB bedsheet at an outdoor shop in Leon.
8. So what is the ultimate solution? Be lucky. If you can't or are not so confident about your luck - try to prepare beforehand. The next time I would treat my backpack, sleeping bag, silk liner with permethryn before the trip (letting it dry in a ventilated space) and bring the anti-BB bedsheet with me. That does not guaranty anything, but I understand that it reduces the chances to meet BB on the Camino. I would continue to use the thorough inspection of the bed before settling, although I only spotted something suspicious once. And I try to take good care of my things after I come home - all go through either heat (dryer, sauna, oven) or cold (freezer) treatment. I hold my fingers crossed that is enough and I won't have brought the BB home.

 

[craigmiller]

I was at a small hostel in Burgos for 3 days due to knee pain. the hospitalero an angel of a man asked only that I leave for half hour each day to clean. he gave me a bottom bunk and let me rest all day. above me was a girl that had bed bugs and carried them on to other places along the way. I know cause the place where next she went helped her get rid of them. why I didn't I get them from her when she was above me is due to the permetherin which I had spread before leaving home. those who are infested do carry them to the next place unless they get rid of them properly and by hot wash and dryer.

It is heat, not water, that eliminates bed bugs. If you think you have them, don't bother with washing, throw your gear straight into the clothes drier and turn up the heat. Your stuff will get hotter, for longer, if it is dry. A half hour at >60C should kill the bugs and their eggs. (Putting your stuff in the sun in a black plastic bag is unlikey to do the job.) Upon return, if you can immediately transfer your gear into a freezer at 0C (-20F) for 3 to 4 days before you unpack, it should avoid an infestation in your home.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Have we settled the debate yet?

138 posts just on this thread...

 

[C clearly]

Have we settled the debate yet?
138 posts just on this thread...

Where do you see the post numbers? (I've wondered before, when people refer to post # but I can see them numbered.)

 

[Albertagirl]

Where do you see the post numbers? (I've wondered before, when people refer to post # but I can see them numbered.)

@C clearly:
The post numbers are on a button right next to the "like" button. Your last post was #140.

 

[C clearly]

@C clearly:
The post numbers are on a button right next to the "like" button. Your last post was #140.

Ah! Of course. It is very obvious now. Thanks!

 

[Pabloke]

7. Some advice on where to get the chemicals in Spain in case you decide to use them. I was surprised to have difficulty to find permethryn-based spray in the pharmacies in Spain, on the Camino given that BB must be not uncommon problem. I have gone to litteraly more than 10 pharmacies before finding such spray just during the last days of the journey, the name "Farma Zum Cinches y Pulgas".

In Spain, insecticides are not usually sold in pharmacies. You can find them in supermarkets and "droguerías" (drugstores mainly focused to hygienic and cosmetic products, like Schlecker).

In pharmacies you will find those products directly related to health. A permethryn-based spray, probably, is not made to be used on human skin but on things.

 

[Dutchwalk53]

You forgot to mention the bears, wild boar and wolves that are in northern Spain.

Ok just for fun .....but still Camino related....and about dealing with bears, snakes and other possible critters on The Camino. I taped this last week while on my daily training walk here at home.....this is NOT in the wild , and not an exception but a normal thing in my development I also come across snakes every now and then and we have black bears coming into the community (but you don't see them often.) My point is.....try to relax and just be aware of your surroundings. I do not like bed bugs either and simply do a bed check where ever I sleep ....also here in the USA and then just hope for the best

 

[Mark Lee]

a little off topic ( the bedbugs ) but about dealing with bears, snakes and other possible critters on The Camino. I taped this last week while on my daily stroll here at home.....this is NOT in the wild , and not an exception but a normal thing my development I also come across snakes every now and then and we have black bears coming into the community (but you don't see them often.) My point is.....try to relax and just be aware of your surroundings. I do not like bed bugs either and simply do a bed check where ever I sleep ....also here in the USA and then just hope for the best

Yeah, a few of them gators not far from where I'm sitting here right now in south Louisiana. They were so common in coastal south Texas where we used to duck hunt that we couldn't bring a retriever dog with us during the early season. Dog jump in to get a duck and good chance he won't make it back.
As far as bedbugs go, I still think they are overblown on here, and to the 500 or so non-members on here at any given time that may be reading this, don't be put-off. Walk without worry.

 

[domigee]

where I'm sitting here right now in south Louisiana.

Wow, that makes me dream
Written from - cold - UK!

 

[Mark Lee]

Wow, that makes me dream
Written from - cold - UK!

It's sunny, 29c and 64% humidity.....kinda sticky

 

[Dutchwalk53]

It's sunny, 29c and 64% humidity.....kinda sticky

Wow, that makes me dream
Written from - cold - UK!

Same here in South Florida,, warm, sunny and humid.....hang in domigee.......summer will be there soon in the UK !

 

[Anniesantiago]

Let's just say I think things on here get a wee bit exaggerated at times. Sure, the occasional bedbug bite is possible, but I also think a lot of the bites are the result of mosquito and flea encounters. No way do I think the bedbug populations on the Camino warrant walking around with a backpack and gear with the toxicity level of the average chemical plant.

Famous last words.

 

[Mark Lee]

Famous last words.

Well, three CF's from SJPdP to Santiago under my belt, and stayed in all manner of albergues and such on them, and nary a bedbug encounter. I firmly believe that if I did another three my record would stay intact.
Maybe y'all need to think more positive or something. All them negative vibes and fear of bedbugs maybe attracting them.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Well, three CF's from SJPdP to Santiago under my belt, and stayed in all manner of albergues and such on them, and nary a bedbug encounter. I firmly believe that if I did another three my record would stay intact.
Maybe y'all need to think more positive or something. All them negative vibes and fear of bedbugs maybe attracting them.

 

[xymmot]

Yeah, but I never met anyone along the Way that had been bitten either. At least not at the albergues I was staying at. I'm starting to think that bedbugs on the Camino are like the legendary jackalope of the American southwest.
ain't luck if it ain't there

I would not wish a bed bug bite on anyone, but they are out there and not fun to deal with

 

[C clearly]

Maybe y'all need to think more positive or something. All them negative vibes and fear of bedbugs maybe attracting them.

Yes, of course. Must be my fault.

 

[Albertagirl]

Yes, of course. Must be my fault.

Or maybe Mark Lee just has really tough skin. Even bedbugs may know when someone is inedible.

 

[ktchnofdngr]

@DavidsRetired:
David, I too am retired, and living on a low income and no work pension. This is something that I manage very well, but an infestation of bedbugs in my home could be financially disastrous and extremely uncomfortable to me and to my neighbours. To me, this is a risk which I cannot and will not take on. In addition, there is a risk of causing considerable discomfort and possibly illness to some of the vulnerable seniors who share my apartment block. I have had food poisoning and find it most uncomfortable, but I get over it and do not risk either taking it home or passing it on to others. Of course, there are always risks of travel, but I choose to minimize the risk of taking the pests home. I consider that to be more than an inconvenience.

When I went on my Camino in 2013, I contracted bedbugs twice, and didn't catch them immediately (I just assumed that the bites were blisters). The second time, I was in Santiago, and going home the next day, so I didn't clean all of my gear before I left. Instead, I asked my family to bring me a change of clothes, including shoes, and a big trash bag. Before I left the airport, I had changed into different clothes, I threw away my favorite pair of sandals (they weren't washable), and everything else was stuffed into the garbage bag. We left the bag in the sun, sealed airtight, for at least a week. Then, I washed and dried the heck out of everything in the hottest temperature I could use. That got rid of the bedbugs, and there was no infestation of my home.

When I was living in the dorms during college, there was a lice outbreak, and they told us that, anything that wasn't machine washable needed to be kept in an airtight container (read knotted garbage bag) for at least 7 days, since that would kill the bugs. Since bedbugs need air, too, I figured that that would help with keeping the infestation out of my house.

my 2 cents,

Ruth

 

[AJ]

Well, three CF's from SJPdP to Santiago under my belt, and stayed in all manner of albergues and such on them, and nary a bedbug encounter. I firmly believe that if I did another three my record would stay intact.

2008 - 2010: no bites;
2011, 2012, 2013, 2014: bites in France and Spain
2015: no bites.

And no, they were not mosquitoes, nor fleas.

 

[Mark Lee]

I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch of the imagination, but is it possible that this whole bedbug issue on the Camino is being inflated and really given a lot of forum time in some sort of attempt to scare off prospective pilgrims, thus reducing the crowds and ensuring more (bedbug free ) bed space at albergues?
Hmmm.....
Prospective pilgrims out there reading this, do not be influenced or intimidated in any way. Walk the Camino fearlessly. Bedbugs just ain't that bad on it.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I think Mark Lee is enjoying hooking people.

And frankly, it is annoying as hell, seeing how many of us have been bitten or have seen people who were bitten. I dealt with a hysterical crying client covered in bites she got at Roncesvalles and if you tell her bedbugs are a myth I suspect you'd get a punch in the nose. I saw a Korean lady who looked like she had chickenpox the bites were so bad and took a German man to hospital with bites the size of a 50 cent piece.

To tell people not to worry and that they don't exist is ignorant and negligent, in my opinion, and is one reason they are spread along the Camino.

I may or may not have been bitten ONCE on my first Camino 10 years ago. But I have seen evidence of bugs and their bites on every Camino every year since.

I've never seen a grizzly bear up close either and don't know anyone who has been eaten by one, but if I ever walk the PCT I won't keep my food in my tent.

We all agree there is no reason to be paranoid. But not to be educated in this day and age or to tell people who HAVE seen or experienced the evidence is as irritating as the little beast's bite itself!

 

[C clearly]

I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch of the imagination, but is it possible that this whole bedbug issue on the Camino is being inflated and really given a lot of forum time in some sort of attempt to scare off prospective pilgrims, thus reducing the crowds and ensuring more (bedbug free ) bed space at albergues?
Hmmm.....
Prospective pilgrims out there reading this, do not be influenced or intimidated in any way. Walk the Camino fearlessly. Bedbugs just ain't that bad on it.

@Mark Lee - it is precisely your posts (suggesting that bedbugs are a myth) that keep me posting on this subject! I absolutely am not trying to discourage anyonel! I simply want people to understand the facts and have methods to manage the risks. (Which are real!)

 

[SYates]

I am a bit of a fatalist when it comes to bed bugs on the camino ;-) BUT I make very sure not to take them home! On the camino that means that I try to avoid the places that are reported to be bed bug castles and wash and dry clothes and sleeping bag when possible. When I arrive home I treat my whole equipment as 'potentially bed bug infected', meaning I put everything directly in the bath tub (Bed bugs can't climb out of it) and sort/wash/dry/treat/freeze accordingly from there. In my experience bed bugs do exist and you can't always avoid them on the camino BUT you can make sure you don't introduce them into your home.

Buen Camino sin chinches, SY

 

[Mark Lee]

I think Mark Lee is enjoying hooking people.

And frankly, it is annoying as hell, seeing how many of us have been bitten or have seen people who were bitten. I dealt with a hysterical crying client covered in bites she got at Roncesvalles and if you tell her bedbugs are a myth I suspect you'd get a punch in the nose. I saw a Korean lady who looked like she had chickenpox the bites were so bad and took a German man to hospital with bites the size of a 50 cent piece.

To tell people not to worry and that they don't exist is ignorant and negligent, in my opinion, and is one reason they are spread along the Camino.

I may or may not have been bitten ONCE on my first Camino 10 years ago. But I have seen evidence of bugs and their bites on every Camino every year since.

I've never seen a grizzly bear up close either and don't know anyone who has been eaten by one, but if I ever walk the PCT I won't keep my food in my tent.

We all agree there is no reason to be paranoid. But not to be educated in this day and age or to tell people who HAVE seen or experienced the evidence is as irritating as the little beast's bite itself!

Wow, wee bit of anger and violence (punch to the nose?)....ha ha
"the lady doth protest too much, methinks"....
Again, I stand by my experiences on three Caminos. No bedbugs and no bedbug victims observed. Come to think of it, didn't see any grizzly bears either....

 

[Pabloke]

Wow, wee bit of anger and violence (punch to the nose?)....ha ha
"the lady doth protest too much, methinks"....
Again, I stand by my experiences on three Caminos. No bedbugs and no bedbug victims observed. Come to think of it, didn't see any grizzly bears either....

Ah, sweet babyliar...

None of us has ever seen you on the path.

 

[Mark Lee]

Ah, sweet babyliar...

None of us has ever seen you on the path.

whoa easy there Pablo....no need to throw down the gauntlet...ha ha

 

[jennie]

Kanga, Studying insects, and I suppose how to kill them, is indeed important work (unless you are the bug). I contend that non-toxic formulas are -- and shall remain -- an option for those people wishing to avoid carcinogens, such as Hamilton-Arvisais.
Additionally, I do take it personally when terms like "snake oil" and "magic incantations" are used to refute my perspective. Perhaps I should develop thicker skin, by applying carcinogens;-)
Then again, I've never been biten by a bed bug, a fact, never soaked my clothes in or sprayed my pack with carcinogens. Maybe my skin is already thick enough, at least for attacks of the bed bug variety.
Perhaps the best thing I have read in this thread is what C clearly said about some people not being allergic or attractive to bed bugs. Seems there may be some fact there too. I wonder why that is. Maybe I eat more garlic than others, or some other intake, or maybe it's just DNA. Who knows for sure? My wife has gone backpacking with me and been covered by ticks, when I had none. Begs the question, do I eat more garlic than her? does the fact that I drink red wine and she white wine make all the difference. God only knows.

The fact remains that there are options out there on the market (many of them), no matter where you studied. Use whatever your own sensibilities can handle.

Respectfully,

i do believe that what WE eat can make US tastier,, garlic is often used as an additive to some horses food to reduce insect/fly bites ,but each to their own ideas as long as anyone that has a bug prob deals with it and does not carry the buggers along with them ,

 

[Pabloke]

whoa easy there Pablo....no need to throw down the gauntlet...ha ha

No gauntlet thrown, Mark; gentle lover here.

Just fooling around.

Nobody see you ergo you ain't there.

Paradoxes of life.

 

[AJ]

Nobody see you ergo you ain't there.
.

This reminds me of a quote from Al Ghazzali:

"There can be no greater foolishness than to deny the reality of something only because one has not experienced it."

 

[Anniesantiago]

Right, like a person denying humans have a brain because they have never held one in their hand.

 

[KristinSdV]

Right, like a person denying humans have a brain because they have never held one in their hand.

Saw this today:

"ADULT BED BUGS PREFER RED AND BLACK, BUT AVOID YELLOW AND GREEN
Researchers from the University of Florida and Union College in Lincoln, NE wondered whether bed bugs preferred certain colors for their hiding places, so they did some testing in the lab. The tests consisted of using small tent-like harborages that were made from colored cardstock and placed in Petri dishes. A bed bug was then placed in the middle of the Petri dish and given ten minutes to choose one of the colored harborages. A few variations of the test were also conducted, such as testing bed bugs in different life stages, of different sexes, individual bugs versus groups of bugs, and fed bugs versus hungry bugs.

The results, which are published in the Journal of Medical Entomology, showed that the bed bugs strongly preferred red and black, and they seemed to avoid colors like green and yellow."

Maybe albergues should only use fluorescent yellow and green sheets and pilgrims should try wearing yellow or green to bed????

https://entomologytoday.org/2016/04/25/bed-bugs-favorite-colors-are-red-and-black/

 

[Cathy Balogh]

All I can tell y'all is that I've done the CF three times and never seen a bedbug or had a bedbug bite.

why do you think you have had such great success, and what were your preparations?

 

[Mark Lee]

why do you think you have had such great success, and what were your preparations?

Just completed the CF for a fourth time, and again no bedbug encounters, and no reports of them in the albergues I stayed in as well. That makes it approximately 120 days or so doing the Camino, staying in all kinds of accommodations (albergues that are municipal and private) and no chinches.
No preparations at all and I attribute the zero encounters to the whole bedbug thing being wildly exaggerated on this forum. The conspiracy theorist in me sometimes believes it's some forum members desperate attempt to scare off future pilgrims from the Camino. Some sort of hope to reduce the crowding, ha ha. Or who knows, maybe they have stock in pyrethrum companies.
Honestly, no BS. Zero bedbugs on all CF's.

 

[Tincatinker]

My theory is that @Mark Lee is actually an alien and therefore unpalatable to bedbugs. His plan is to get the entire human race on Camino so that he can take over the rest of the planet

 

[Mark Lee]

My theory is that @Mark Lee is actually an alien and therefore unpalatable to bedbugs. His plan is to get the entire human race on Camino so that he can take over the rest of the planet

Heyyyyy.......I like the sound of dat.

But seriously folks, I have never seen one of the critters on the CF, nor did I talk to any fellow pilgrims who were bitten by them in any of the albergues I was in. I did see a couple freak out while sitting on the couch in the common area of an albergue. They saw a bug on the couch and were convinced it was a bedbug. I saw it. It was about the size of my pinkie tip and it was the middle of the day. It was just some beetle of some kind. The couple was practically frantic about it, ha ha. The hospitalera got a can of bug spray and sprayed the couch, but the couple (the guy needed to turn in his man card) was still freaking out.

I've been in houses infested with bedgugs (and other nefarious critters) when I was a copper. I've seen their signage.

 

[craigmiller]

It is heat, not water, that eliminates bed bugs. If you think you have them, don't bother with washing, throw your gear straight into the clothes drier and turn up the heat. Your stuff will get hotter, for longer, if it is dry. A half hour at >60C should kill the bugs and their eggs. (Putting your stuff in the sun in a black plastic bag is unlikey to do the job.) Upon return, if you can immediately transfer your gear into a freezer at 0C (-20F) for 3 to 4 days before you unpack, it should avoid an infestation in your home.

I need to amend this post: don't put your gear directly into the drier if your stuff contains significant amounts of sand. The grit can damage the drier motor. (Out son wrecked our clothes drier this way.)

 

[C clearly]

I need to amend this post

I had to laugh when the title of this thread appeared in the feed: "Bedbug Question! Settle our debate!" After 172 posts and then 6 years of dormancy, we have other more recent versions of the debate, so I'll close this one.

Thanks for your cautionary follow-up warning, and condolences on your dryer!