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Janet, this is something that has come up on other threads, and others have expressed concern. I’ve never really heard a clear answer. Isn’t there a requirement that albergues have a fire escape route? Wouldn’t that preclude locking people in at night? I understand the desire to keep people from waking everyone up early, but I would think the concern for safety would take precedence. I would not sleep in an albergue where I was locked in with no way out till the hospitaler@ opened the door.If the hospitalero says the door will be locked and you want to leave earlier, choose a a hotel without set hours and private bathrooms.
At some albergues the door is locked between those hours.
I'm sorry, but I would report any place that locked pilgrims in. It's not legal or safe.If the hospitalero says the door will be locked
I know you are right, there are relatively easy fixes to this problem.Perhaps when pilgrims are "locked in", the regular exits are locked, but there may still be emergency exits that will trigger alarms when they are opened. That would address fire safety concerns.
Perhaps someone who lives in Spain or is really good at researching (@Kathar1na ) could find out what the fire codes in Spain say. I can't believe that it's legal to provide a place to spend the night with no egress.
Even beyond the legalities, what is the safety culture? This is an area where the albergue associations and hospitaleros could be pro-active.Really curious what the legal situation is?
Spain is a wonderful country, but their attitude to safety leaves much to be desired, not only in the albergues, but in general it seems. Walking past road works and construction sites I noticed a distinct lack of safety precautions that in most countries would see the work site shut down.Even beyond the legalities, what is the safety culture? This is an area where the albergue associations and hospitaleros could be pro-active.
Haha you should try walking in other countries if you think Spain is ‘bad’ regarding safety!Spain is a wonderful country, but their attitude to safety leaves much to be desired, not only in the albergues, but in general it seems. Walking past road works and construction sites I noticed a distinct lack of safety precautions that in most countries would see the work site shut down.
Bulgaria comes to mind right now
I was thinking about safery regarding roadworks or works in general. Approaching Sofia, I recall having to ‘duck’ to just avoid cranes and other machineryThe numbers say that Spain has fewer deaths by fire than the US on a per capita basis. Not sure how that factors in, but I thought it was interesting.
And Bulgaria comes in just behind the US.
FIRES DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY
Interactive Charts and Maps that Rank Fires as a Cause of Death for every country in the World.www.worldlifeexpectancy.com
I suspect that all the stone walls in Spain…. The mud… the plaster… are far more fire resistant for “spread”… and that the rampant terrible construction, the signifying swaths of mobile homes, wooden housing…. My god… I spent my teens and 20’s with TV from Buffalo and every night something was burning in North Tonawanda… I’m sure it was age and structure of those buildings. If the house is going up like a tinder box, a fire alarm isn’t likely to help…. But we also know that there is a lot of housing in the US without proper inspection, maintenance etc…The numbers say that Spain has fewer deaths by fire than the US on a per capita basis. Not sure how that factors in, but I thought it was interesting.
And Bulgaria comes in just behind the US.
FIRES DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY
Interactive Charts and Maps that Rank Fires as a Cause of Death for every country in the World.www.worldlifeexpectancy.com
There are a number of older threads about the practice of locking pilgrims in at night. It is illegal.
In one of the threads, @SYates suggests that you fill out an hoja de reclamación/complaint form that all commercial establishments are required to have.
I don't know if I have ever been locked in an albergue, but in the future I will definitely check out emergency egress when I enter an albergue.
If I were to ever be a hospitalera I wouldn't take the risk of locking pilgrims in.
Spain is a wonderful country, but their attitude to safety leaves much to be desired,
'Other countries,' like many parts of the world - where there are no smoke detectors, and construction to any legal code at all is wishful thinking.Haha you should try walking in other countries if you think Spain is ‘bad’ regarding safety!Bulgaria comes to mind right now but there were plenty others
One of the things I discovered in my search was that EU fire regulations are more stringent than in the UK. As for workplace health and safety, feast your eyes on this gem from the archive (not Spain, in case you were wondering).'Other countries,' like many parts of the world - where there are no smoke detectors, and construction to any legal code at all is wishful thinking.
Spain is doing well by contrast.
Not that locking pilgrims in at night is safe.
It's not.
Reading this thread makes me realize I have never asked if they do this.
I have no idea about regulations but I would expect that the Spanish regulations are similar to those we'd expect, i.e. a guest staying in any kind of touristic establishment including Camino albergues must have a guarantee of being able to leave the building in case of a fire. To what extent the Camino associations who manage the daily running of an albergue, and the volunteers on their short-time stints, are aware of this, or just apply common sense, and to what extent there is control of compliance with any regulations that may exist is anyone's guess.Perhaps someone [...] could find out what the fire codes in Spain say. I can't believe that it's legal to provide a place to spend the night with no egress.
We lock the doors at this albergue from 10:00pm till 6:00am from the inside!?I will say that we were instructed carefully on the use of the "gas" tank for cooking and make sure it was turned off at the source after use, however, with wood stoves the instructions were less careful, except not to let the pilgrims add wood or tend the fire. If you are a hospitalero without a lot of fireplace, pellet stove, or wood stove experience that would also be a potential risk.
Here is a link that may be useful to pursue if someone wants to know the fire protection regulations for Spain: https://www.enion.es/normativa-de-proteccion-contra-incendios-en-hoteles/. It refers to hotels. Every hotel has to have an emergency plan in case of a fire and their personnel needs to know it.I have no idea about regulations
That's exactly the sort of thing (and one of tbe countries) I was thinking about when I wrote that post.feast your eyes on this gem from the archive (
Exactly. Who knows?Spanish regulations are similar to those we'd expect, i.e. a guest staying in any kind of touristic establishment including Camino albergues must have a guarantee of being able to leave the building in case of a fire. To what extent the Camino associations who manage the daily running of an albergue, and the volunteers on their short-time stints, are aware of this, or just apply common sense, and to what extent there is control of compliance with any regulations that may exist is anyone's guess.
Excellent advice.where the stairs are, but we use them once to make sure they are accessible to the downstairs, or outdoors.
I agree with the sentiments in this thread regarding safety and don't think I ever stayed in an "locked in" albergue. And yes the attitudes towards safety in Spain and some other European countries have something to be desired, but... the other extreme of having warnings in North America (I'm in Canada) of everything from.. "careful, coffee is hot!" to every sort of warning such as.. icy sidewalks may cause you to fall.... the list goes on. What I mean is common sense is not needed here any more.Spain is a wonderful country, but their attitude to safety leaves much to be desired, not only in the albergues, but in general it seems. Walking past road works and construction sites I noticed a distinct lack of safety precautions that in most countries would see the work site shut down.
As @peregrina2000 said on one of the links I posted above, locking pilgrims in is a restriction on the fundamental right of liberty.I don't think that we will find a rule that says you must not lock doors.
On another thread about a new Hostal in Torres del Rio, the person who stayed there described how they were locked into the place and had to wait to be let out in the morning by the owners. Others then added similar experiences.
I have been in this situation on various occasions -- being totally locked inside, no way out, till the owner shows up.
I wrote to a friend of mine in Madrid who is a law professor, and he responded immediately -- this is totally illegal, for two reasons, one more theoretical, one practical:
1. It would be deemed a restriction on the fundamental human right of liberty (Article 17 of the Spanish Constitution)
2. Each Comunidad Autonoma (regional governments like the Xunta, the Junta de Castilla y Leon, etc) has tourism laws that require owners to facilitate free exit and entry at all times for the guests.
I understand this, and appreciate that different people choose different risks, and we shouldn't expect everyone to have the same tolerance. However, on the specific question of fire safety in albergues, I think that it is simply a very bad idea to lock pilgrims inside a building. Pilgrims should be aware of the emergency escapes, and hospitaleros should test them and communicate them. Maybe a fire extinguisher here and there would also be wise. That's all.Personally, i love Spain for their attitude towards safety. Or the lack of it. Wanna jump over a fire, sure, go ahead. Oh, you fell into the fire, well, you should not have jumped then.
I have not read the old threads in these links. IANAL and I am sure that it is restriction on the fundamental human right of liberty (Article 17 of the Spanish Constitution) to be locked in somewhere against your will but would this apply for these cases that interest us? You are obviously free to leave before the doors get locked. This is all rather hypothetical.As @peregrina2000 said on one of the links I posted above, locking pilgrims in is a restriction on the fundamental right of liberty.
I understand this, and appreciate that different people choose different risks, and we shouldn't expect everyone to have the same tolerance. However, on the specific question of fire safety in albergues, I think that it is simply a very bad idea to lock pilgrims inside a building. Pilgrims should be aware of the emergency escapes, and hospitaleros should test them and communicate them. Maybe a fire extinguisher here and there would also be wise. That's all.
I'm sorry but it is not clear to me what is generalisation and what is what you actually did when you were hospitaleros.If the hospitalero says the door will be locked and you want to leave earlier, choose a a hotel without set hours and private bathrooms.
As a hospitalera, I go to bed after everyone else (10 pm or later) and get up at 5:30 am to start coffee and breakfast. At some albergues the door is locked between those hours. At one albergue where I served the boots and bikes were locked up outside until I got up and unlocked the cupboard.
or Article 3 of the UDHR?IANAL but I am sure that it is restriction on the fundamental human right of liberty (Article 17 of the Spanish Constitution)
Well said.Dare I say there appears to be more heat than light in this discussion. It would be good to get a better fact base. I don't think we should all become amateur fire safety inspectors and distract ourselves from our pilgrimage to do that. But it is possible to ask simple questions about the emergency measures should there be a fire or other reason to evacuate an albergue and have a reasonable expectation that a hospitalero would be able to explain those arrangements.
But if there are emergency exits are they well marked? Trying to find a way out in a smoke filled room at night is the stuff of nightmares. And there should always be to means of egress in case one is blocked by fire.Good summary, Dick. I like to think that when people refer to locking the doors so people cannot get out, they are are simply forgetting to mention that the emergency exits are still available. I expect that they are, in most cases, but it would be helpful for hospitaleros to be clearer.
This.If you are a hospi, make fire escapes etc a part of your intro to arriving pilgrims and if asked to follow unsafe practices, refuse and report the albergue to the association
From memory (but that was in 2012j the albergue in Ponferrada was locked At night. I remember we were all queing near the small outside door to get out in the morning! But there was plenty of space outside so in case of a fire we would have been (sort of) ok.Janet, this is something that has come up on other threads, and others have expressed concern. I’ve never really heard a clear answer. Isn’t there a requirement that albergues have a fire escape route? Wouldn’t that preclude locking people in at night? I understand the desire to keep people from waking everyone up early, but I would think the concern for safety would take precedence. I would not sleep in an albergue where I was locked in with no way out till the hospitaler@ opened the door.
Everytime one sleeps in an unfamiliar setting one should take the time to have an exit plan in case an emergency. You never know when your life could depend upon it. I hope each of us has an exit plan at home? If you arrive at an accommodation and don’t know where the emergency exits are, or your not clear whether they will open, by all means BE DISTRACTED and find out before you put your head on that pillow! If language is a barrier, then ask for assistance. Do not remain overnight in a facility that you cannot readily exit!I don't think we should all become amateur fire safety inspectors and distract ourselves from our pilgrimage to do that. But it is possible to ask simple questions about the emergency measures should there be a fire or other reason to evacuate an albergue and have a reasonable expectation that a hospitalero would be able to explain those arrangements.
he said when he was a hospitalero this October at Caldazilla de los Hermanillos the fire exit plan was on the front door of the albergue
From what I saw yesterday when I looked for regulations for albergues in Spanish regions, I read repeatedly that a fire exit plan must be on display inside the building and/or next to the (main?) door. It would be useful to verify whether such a regulation exists in every region and then verify whether the information is on display in the albergues that are subject to this regulation. I know that hotels must have this but I do not often pay attention to it. Merely based on my memory, I would have said that it is rarely the case but I am certain that this would be wrong. I just didn't pay attention and that's why I don't remember.2 ) evacuation diagrams in each room
I am afraid your expectations will be disappointed. Volunteers hospis may be made familiar with these things in some situations, but I can assure you from first hand experience that it is not standard.From what I saw yesterday when I looked for regulations for albergues in Spanish regions, I read repeatedly that a fire exit plan must be on display inside the building and/or next to the (main?) door. It would be useful to verify whether such a regulation exists in every region and then verify whether the information is on display in the albergues that are subject to this regulation. I know that hotels must have this but I do not often pay attention to it. Merely based on my memory, I would have said that it is rarely the case but I am certain that this would be wrong. I just didn't pay attention and that's why I don't remember.
From an information leaflet issued by the municipality of Salamanca with title Cómo abrir un albergue en régimen turístico wich mentions albergues de los Caminos a Santiago explicitly: it says that they must put up posters with evacuation plans; must have fire extinguishers; must fulfil building norms NBE-CPI/96 concerning protection against fire in buildings. I presume that these building norms may be different for old buildings and for newly built/renovated buildings.
I'd expect that volunteer hospitaleros are made familiar with how to operate fire extinguishers during their training course and don't have to read the label first or rely on a knowledgeable pilgrim in an emergency situation. And know where the fire extinguisher is kept in the albergue where they volunteer.
Grañon is donativo, right? Of course there ought to be appropriate rules and equipment in place. I just want to point out again, since the question of legal regulation had been raised, that donativo albergues are not covered by regulations for albergues in general. As an example another quote from the Salamanca leaflet mentioned above:I think of Grañon
True. But bear in mind that these are not high-rise buildings with hundreds of people in them. Grañon has 40 places it seems. That is as many persons as in a large class in a school, not a whole school with 100s or even 1000s of students. The behaviour of very large crowds in emergency or panic situations and how to evacuate them safely and quickly from a multi-storey building or large area is not the same as that of a relatively small group of people. And if there is only one way out then everybody knows where to go.with only one way out, down a narrow (fortunately stone) stairway.
Katharina, in school, it is daylight, people are not in a state of (deep) sleep, they are clothed and have shoes on. Schools run fire drills. Students know how to get out!True. But bear in mind that these are not high-rise buildings with hundreds of people in them. Grañon has 40 places it seems. That is as many persons as in a large class in a school, not a whole school with 100s or even 1000s of students. The behaviour of very large crowds in emergency or panic situations and how to evacuate them safely and quickly from a multi-storey building or large area is not the same as that of a relatively small group of people. And if there is only one way out then everybody knows where to go.
I tried to think of a small and a large crowd of people to illustrate how large a crowd of 30-40 people is. School classes and schools sprang to my mind as an example because most of us can probably easily 'see' such a crowd size. Other examples of small and large crowds may apply.Katharina, in school, it is daylight, people are not in a state of (deep) sleep, they are clothed and have shoes on. Schools run fire drills. Students know how to get out!
Si.Grañon is donativo, right?
donativo albergues are not covered by regulations for albergues in general.
Very good point. Because tbe donativos are the albergues most likely to have unconventional construction (thinking of Manjarin).It may be important to be aware of all this if some kind of awareness plan or other initiative for intervention or protest is intended.
I would guess that would be challenging in any albergue. In Grañon, if a fire were to happen at night at least no-one has to get out of a top bunk. Because the sleeping area is just mats on the floor, that would make leaving much easier than in a cramped bunkroom.Can 40 people make it safely out safely out in a maximum of two minutes?
Yes understood, but my point is that size alone is not the only criteria. How many exits are there, how accessible are the exits, how oriented are the individuals to the exit strategy, are the people awake or were they sleeping, are they clothed and do they have shoes on (or are the shoes in some corner). Is the fire alarm system working. Schools usually test their systems. Are albergues required to, IDK. So there are many factors involved.I tried to think of a small and a large crowd of people to illustrate how large a crowd of 30-40 people is. School classes and schools sprang to my mind as an example because most of us can probably easily 'see' such a crowd size. Other examples of small and large crowds may apply.
Burgos. Stayed in 2014. Do not recall being locked in, but I do not remember how we secured breakfast that morning either.On my 2013 I stayed in an muni alburgue whose name escapes me at the moment but I do know it was after Atapuerca and before Fromista. I looked through my photos but nothing is jogging my memory. Some of you may recognize it by the unique way they stored boots/walking shoes. You would pull/slide open a large tall compartment that had shelves, place your shoes in it then slide it closed.It was a large building with many levels accessible by stairs, they also had a washer and dryer. I stayed there in 2016 too. In 2013 as I made my way to the shoe storage the next morning I was surprised to see so many pilgrims waiting with backpacks on, ready to leave, I asked what was going on. I was told we were locked in. Some had been waiting a long time, some were getting antsy. None of us knew we would be locked in. I don’t recall the doors being locked in 2016. Do any of you know which alburgue I am describing? Ugh memory games.
First, thank you for your service, @HeidiL I really appreciate that you took the time to check the emergency doors. When you explained “ while we said the door was locked, what we meant was the door was fine to open from the inside - you just couldn’t open from the outside.” I think it is worth considering when training Volunteers, that they know that very specific and clear instructions needs to be given as to how those doors operate. If a person thinks that they can’t get out out at 3am, they may try looking for another alternative that could place them in harms way? This is, in no way , meant to criticise any volunteer, but to empasize,in their training, that safety procedures should be carefully explained and reviewed with all pilgrims.I just came home from hospitalera service in Nájera, and while we said the door was locked, what we meant was that the door was fine to open from the inside - you just couldn't open it from the outside without a key, so no midnight smoking breaks, dear Italian pilgrims (those were the people who asked specifically about that). There was also an emergency exit from the dormitorio, which I tested on the first day - all the doors were easy to push outwards.
Burgos? Really? I remember a lot about Burgos but I don't recall the large sliding boot locker storage cabinets being there and I don't remember being locked in there but I can see the lobby area clearly in my mind. I can see bits and pieces clearly but can't make a connection. Hmmm, maybe one day it will suddenly come to me.Burgos. Stayed in 2014. Do not recall being locked in, but I do not remember how we secured breakfast that morning either.
That's the only place that I can think of that meets your geographic limits, and interior description... though as I said: I don't remember anything like being locked in.Burgos? Really? I remember a lot about Burgos but I don't recall the large sliding boot locker storage cabinets being there and I don't remember being locked in there but I can see the lobby area clearly in my mind. I can see bits and pieces clearly but can't make a connection. Hmmm, maybe one day it will suddenly come to me.Thanks so much for your response.
I was surprised to see so many pilgrims waiting with backpacks on, ready to leave, I asked what was going on. I was told we were locked in.
I can't imagine it, either. I think we have learned from this thread that the words "locked in" need to be clarified in every case before we draw any conclusions about fire safety. It may well generally mean "You cannot leave by the normal doors. If you use the emergency door, it will set off an alarm."I still can't imagine it being possible that this particular albergue was locking folks *in*.
"The municipal in Burgos. I can't remember what time they open the doors in morning, but I met up with a guy who wanted to start early, but couldn't because he was locked in."I can't imagine it, either. I think we have learned from this thread that the words "locked in" need to be clarified in every case before we draw any conclusions about fire safety. It may well generally mean "You cannot leave by the normal doors. If you use the emergency door, it will set off an alarm."
I'd happily stay there again too as I did again in 2016. I'm not bashing any particular alburgue just contributing to the theme of this thread.That's the only place that I can think of that meets your geographic limits, and interior description... though as I said: I don't remember anything like being locked in.
I don't have a photo of the slide-out boot storage, but it was the only one I encountered on the whole trip (and it was mighty impressive!).
[Edited to add:] I found full photos that meet the description supplied by FourSeasons... but I still can't imagine it being possible that this particular albergue was locking folks *in*. I did find my one photo of my pre-dawn exit (which would be why I can't recall breakfast). My GOD it was HOT.... my little group was leaving on most days around 5:30 -- as were many... because of the *heat* still scorching the area in late September.
Here is the link to the site: https://www.alberguescaminosantiago...de-peregrinos-municipal-casa-del-cubo-burgos/
And I'd happily stay there again.
The front door was definitely locked in 2014,I think it was 07.00 when it was unlocked."The municipal in Burgos. I can't remember what time they open the doors in morning, but I met up with a guy who wanted to start early, but couldn't because he was locked in."
The above statement was found on this forum from Trecile. I knew I wasn't imagining this. We were locked in. "Locked In" as not able to get out from the inside. Believe me you, the pilgrims that had been waiting there with packbacks on were smart enough to try all means possible to get out. For me it was in 2013. I don't recall it happening in 2016 perhaps they changed their practices due to complaints.
Smoke inhalation is not as serious and deprivation of oxygen. Fires thrive on oxygen.Katharina, in school, it is daylight, people are not in a state of (deep) sleep, they are clothed and have shoes on. Schools run fire drills. Students know how to get out!
Peregrinos are likely sleeping. Smoke inhalation is overpowering in about two minutes. Most people do not wake up from the smell, in fact, smoke puts them further under. So when, and if, the alarm goes off, folks may have less than two minutes to get out. I have seen Granon on videos and decided long ago that I would not want to sleep there. In possible chaos and disorientation and a narrow staircase …Can 40 people make it safely out safely out in a maximum of two minutes? IDK, but because I am not sure, it was off my list early on.…
Good that you noticed and that you mention itI would add that there were plenty of illuminated fire exit signs in the building, some leading to that courtyard area.
This quite possibly is the same courtyard I described in my post #56. Too bad I was not as creative as your little group in getting outside those walls.Another albergue only had the outside wall doors locked up. A stone wall about 7' high. There were some plastic chairs out there and several of us simply climbed over the wall and left. We handed over the wall the first pilgrim over one of the chairs and he assisted the next one over etc until we all left and we dropped the chair back to the other side of the wall.
I don’t think you sound weird at all! I think you are assessing your environment for potential danger. After all you are sleeping in this environment and are quite vulnerable in it!To some it may sound weird, but anytime I stay somewhere like an albergue, hostel, hotel etc I give the area a once over for egress points in the even of a fire or other emergency. Windows I can climb out of and safely get to the ground, stairwells etc. Very rare on the Camino that I have to stay somewhere that is more than three stories tall. I've stayed in numerous albergues with the lock everyone in for the night bit. I don't like it, and a couple of times I did not know we were locked in until the next morning when I attempted to leave before the hospitalero arrived. I think I have related it before on here the one occasion were were locked in and several of us were ready to go. It was a set of double doors keeping us in and they gave slightly when you pushed on them. This exposed the latch which I easily pushed down with a pocketknife. We all exited and off we went. In the event of an emergency that door could have easily been forced open, as are most doors that I observed in albergues. Another albergue only had the outside wall doors locked up. A stone wall about 7' high. There were some plastic chairs out there and several of us simply climbed over the wall and left. We handed over the wall the first pilgrim over one of the chairs and he assisted the next one over etc until we all left and we dropped the chair back to the other side of the wall.
The outer front door is solid wood, this door isn't it.This photo of the Albergue de peregrinos municipal Casa del Cubo sits on an architecture website. I have not stayed in this albergue. The photo is not clear enough to allow reading what it says above the door. Doesn't it say Salida de emergencia or something else? I'm pretty sure about the Salida (Exit) bit. And the sign on the door saying that you need to push with both hands to open it? Is this where people queued in the morning and couldn't get out?
(Click to enlarge)
View attachment 114343
I do not remember the name of the albergue, just that it was on the Frances somewhere before Carrion de los Condes.This quite possibly is the same courtyard I described in my post #56. Too bad I was not as creative as your little group in getting outside those walls.
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