- Time of past OR future Camino
- Podiensis, Portugues, Primitivo, 6 others
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I think that has a lot to do with the alarmist tone. Still not recovered from the pandemic effect on travel at that point. The reason why the 2021 Holy Year was officially extended to cover 2022 as well. Looking at the Compostela figures for those who departed from SJPDP and Roncesvalles in 2023 compared to 2019 there is only a quite small drop from about 38,000 to 36,000. Not the drastic collapse the article seems to suggest. I have read elsewhere that the numbers staying in albergues has declined markedly in Castilla and Leon but that may be due more to a growing preference for private accommodation than any major decline in overall pilgrim numbers on the Camino Frances.Note that the article is dated Aug 19, 2022.
I wonder what the 1948 reference is about? I walked my first Camino in 1990 and there was no 100km minimum distance rule for receiving a Compostela at that time. As I understand it that rule was introduced in connection with the 1993 Holy Year which did indeed mark the beginning of the Xunta's dominant role in developing and promoting the Caminos within Galicia."The thing about one hundred kilometers to obtain the Compostela is not new,
it comes from 1948, but it is also true that this formula has been increasing
in recent years, so that people do not understand the Camino as we understood
it before as a complete route and take a tasting trail, which is the last
hundred kilometers," says José Ignacio Gutiérrez. A reflection shared by the
Camino Francés Federation. "The Xunta de Galicia has appropriated the Camino,
legally, and has carried out a tourist campaign under the pretext of the
Camino.
There are some Camino organizations which make no bones about judging who they believe is and is not a pilgrim so I am not surprised.The points translated from the article read to me like sour grapes from Leon, but I admit freely that my command of Spanish isn't up to the task. But...
"That pilgrims abandon the French path, which is the initial one, the most
traveled one, which comes from medieval origins, clearly worries us..."
With all due respect to everyone's love of the Frances - the Frances is probably not the "initial" camino route, though certainly the most traveled (if memory serves????). I observe once again that the Primitivo goes past ruins of hospitales, monasteries, and churches that date back, in some cases, to the Codex Calixtinus or before. We've already noted on these boards that the writer of the Codex was *not* trying to provide an exhaustive list of routes to Santiago - just ones that originated in France.
To me, the article reads simply that not enough pilgrims are coming through that section of the Frances and staying in albergues in Leon to keep them open, and this is blamed on overmarketing and overcrowding in Galicia. I give a Gallic shrug to the worry.
But I admit extreme irritation at the following, if it was translated correctly.
Anselmo Reguera, president of the Association of Friends of the
Camino de León, is then quoted as saying... "This has created an economic gap from Sarria to Santiago to obtain the Compostela, and that is not pilgrims, they are hikers."
Obviously, *I* object strenuously to this characterization, and am hopeful that it's just bad translation. As a practicing Roman Catholic, only God and my confessor get to decide if *I'm* a pilgrim - and *I* don't get to decide that for *anyone* else.
Frankly, if the albergues in Leon fill up with people that pay their best and respect the property and the Camino, I suspect that these worthies won't really care if the occupants "think" they are pilgrims.
I can't help feeling that people have become very thin-skinned and touchy recently. All too ready to yell some variant of the J-word whenever an alternative opinion is voiced. If you have given serious thought to your own choices and are confident that they are justified why get so worked up about a different point of view? There were more than 446,000 pilgrims recorded in Santiago last year. Forums like this one and the various Facebook groups have thousands of members. It strikes me as unrealistic to believe that you can please all of the people all of the time no matter what you choose to do!There are some Camino organizations which make no bones about judging who they believe is and is not a pilgrim so I am not surprised.
People in general, are very sensitive and they think they are being personally criticized if they don't fit the "view" expressed. We see it here on the forum which is why the rule about not saying who is a tourist and who is a pilgrim was made. Other organizations do not have such rules and they say what they want.I can't help feeling that people have become very thin-skinned and touchy recently. All too ready to yell some variant of the J-word whenever an alternative opinion is voiced. If you have given serious thought to your own choices and are confident that they are justified why get so worked up about a different point of view? There were more than 446,000 pilgrims recorded in Santiago last year. Forums like this one and the various Facebook groups have thousands of members. It strikes me as unrealistic to believe that you can please all of the people all of the time no matter what you choose to do!
I have walked and enjoyed the Camino Francis ten times since 2013.
I have obsolutely no interest in walking the Portuguese which lacks the appeal to me of the Camino Frances. All the videos I have seen from the Portuguese looks flat and boring with little Cràic (Fun).
So I will keep the faith and walk the Frances until I drop which maybe quite soon.
I agree. I "lost my way" navigating through the conflated arguments in the article.But there seems to be a contradiction in the article: is it bemoaning the fact that the Francés has lost its popularity or that it has lost its character? I would question whether either is true and if so whether they are mutually exclusive.
I agree.My view? The Camino changes all the time, it is whatever the individual makes of it. It isn´t for me to try and define what it should be for anyone else.
Traditionally pilgrimage is religious and, I say again, it is a process, a mainly internal process [...] This is the ideal of pilgrimage .. everything else is bucket list hiking. So I understand exactly what they are saying, I have been saying it for twenty years now, sadly watching the holiday bucket list hike take over from the pilgrimage that it is supposed to be.
This isn't an attack on hikers - I know they enjoy their holidays, nor is it a call to join a religion - it is about being human, the deeper questions; the riddle of existence, of what we are, why we are, even where we are, that which wakes us at three in the morning, questioning one's life, the why of it ... and if a human enters the Camino as a pilgrim and these are uppermost in their minds ... it can lead to something quite wonderful.
One of the persons quoted in the article is Anselmo Reguera, president of the Association of Friends of the Camino de León. One can read here that he walked his first Camino in 1981. When they refer to what the Camino was, they are not referring to the Middle Ages or to the 19th century. They mean how it was in the 1980s and early 1990s.it's fine to say that is what the Camino should be, but I do have to wonder if it ever was
The subject does keep repeating itself though. A number of news websites today are reporting on a conference held in Camponaraya for representatives of local government and other interested parties to discuss the current state of the Camino Frances and options for the future. In several of the reports the mayor of Camponaraya mentions a 20% decline in numbers on the Camino Frances - though I cannot see any detail of how such a figure has been reached and over what period the decline has been observed. From a quick glance at the Santiago pilgrim office figures I would have expected any decline to have been far smaller.Note that the article is dated Aug 19, 2022.
As someone who walked my first Camino more than thirty years ago I do feel very strongly that the character of the Camino has changed markedly in that period. Not simply in terms of pilgrim numbers and increasingly sophisticated infrastructure but also in the outlook and expectations of those who walk. A qualitative change as well as a quantitative one.One of the persons quoted in the article is Anselmo Reguera, president of the Association of Friends of the Camino de León. One can read here that he walked his first Camino in 1981. When they refer to what the Camino was, they are not referring to the Middle Ages or to the 19th century. They mean how it was in the 1980s and early 1990s.
I've tried to find out what he actually said and what this figure is based on. One article quotes it as "Para el alcalde de Camponaraya, Eduardo Morán, estos encuentros, que se iniciaron en su etapa como presidente de la Diputación, tienen que servir también para reflexionar sobre la pérdida de peregrinos que optan por otras rutas como la portuguesa y que, en los últimos años, ha sido del 20%.In several of the reports the mayor of Camponaraya mentions a 20% decline in numbers on the Camino
The trend has also been for shorter Caminos close to the minimum distance required for a Compostela. Roncesvalles used to be thought of as the start of the Camino by many Spanish people but in practice very few choose to walk from there these days. Far more now start from Sarria and so do not pass through towns like Camponaraya.As I tried to explain earlier: 20 percent of what? I think this is about the "market share". Relatively speaking, more pilgrims than before opt for other Caminos than the Camino Frances. This is the meaning of "having lost them". They could have come but they didn't and went elsewhere.
You say your post is not meant as an attack on "hikers" and I gladly believe that that was not your intention. It would be more convincing though if you would limit yourself to your own motivation for being on the camino and not compare it to ways other people experience and enjoy their Camino/ hikeI agree completely, 100%, absolutely. I am verging on what cannot be written about on here, but - a pilgrimage is a process, an internal/external process, it isn't something that can be Googled to know the answer, or be done in a hiking holiday way ... a pilgrimage is an ancient deep internal process .. a process that commonly doesn't belong to this modern world, the world that believes you can just take something off a shelf, buy it, and experience it ...
Traditionally pilgrimage is religious and, I say again, it is a process, a mainly internal process - a process that is killed dead by using phones to stay in contact with 'home' and take useless photographs, and earbud music and getting online in the evening ..
It is very like this, pilgrimage ... if anyone goes into a retreat, monastic Christian or Buddhist or Yogic, the first thing that happens is that they take away your phones, your tablets, your earbud music, your fiction books - as the monks know that you cannot be there and process through the retreat if you are not there with only you and your mind and whatever thoughts and connection that comes.
This is the ideal of pilgrimage .. everything else is bucket list hiking. So I understand exactly what they are saying, I have been saying it for twenty years now, sadly watching the holiday bucket list hike take over from the pilgrimage that it is supposed to be.
This isn't an attack on hikers - I know they enjoy their holidays, nor is it a call to join a religion - it is about being human, the deeper questions; the riddle of existence, of what we are, why we are, even where we are, that which wakes us at three in the morning, questioning one's life, the why of it ... and if a human enters the Camino as a pilgrim and these are uppermost in their minds ... it can lead to something quite wonderful.
I like this analogy in a way.I think it's fine to say that is what the Camino should be, but I do have to wonder if it ever was.
This is not a rhetorical question (I do not know the answer): but how many of the pilgrims in medieval times actually went on a deeply spiritual journey; and how many went because they needed a break from mundane life and this was one of the few options society offered them; or went because the whole congregation went and they could conveniently join; or went because they were rich nobles who could afford a vacation?
When I read the Canterbury Tales I don't get the sense that these were all supremely pious people on a journey of spiritual self-improvement: a lot of them just seem to want to have fun.
Surely the same would have applied to plenty of medieval pilgrims walking to Santiago - that a lot of them were mainly occupied with enjoying the company, telling stories and jokes, eating food, flirting, collecting baubles, hitching rides on carts -- rather than pondering the deep questions of life?
But I can't judge if there are (relatively) more or less pilgrims like that nowadays.
I think that means that the complaints in the articles are mainly about a decline in albergue use rather than changing total pilgrim numbers. The use of private accommodation was heavily boosted by Covid anxieties and the closure of some albergues. I don't think that trend has yet been fully reversed. And probably will not be as more people every year are choosing to avoid albergues altogether.They are based on surveys and data transmitted from eleven local albergues and hostels.
TOTALLY AGREE… my Camino experiences have been great spiritual encounters with me myself and God. I am a hiker, walker, and a non conformist Catholic … I dont have a Compostella and Ive never felt compelled to receive one. I read IVAR almost daily just because … I want to go back every year and like to keep in touch with that part of the world. Its sunny here in Rockville Md …. Im praying for Camino spirit ….I agree completely, 100%, absolutely. I am verging on what cannot be written about on here, but - a pilgrimage is a process, an internal/external process, it isn't something that can be Googled to know the answer, or be done in a hiking holiday way ... a pilgrimage is an ancient deep internal process .. a process that commonly doesn't belong to this modern world, the world that believes you can just take something off a shelf, buy it, and experience it ...
Traditionally pilgrimage is religious and, I say again, it is a process, a mainly internal process - a process that is killed dead by using phones to stay in contact with 'home' and take useless photographs, and earbud music and getting online in the evening ..
It is very like this, pilgrimage ... if anyone goes into a retreat, monastic Christian or Buddhist or Yogic, the first thing that happens is that they take away your phones, your tablets, your earbud music, your fiction books - as the monks know that you cannot be there and process through the retreat if you are not there with only you and your mind and whatever thoughts and connection that comes.
This is the ideal of pilgrimage .. everything else is bucket list hiking. So I understand exactly what they are saying, I have been saying it for twenty years now, sadly watching the holiday bucket list hike take over from the pilgrimage that it is supposed to be.
This isn't an attack on hikers - I know they enjoy their holidays, nor is it a call to join a religion - it is about being human, the deeper questions; the riddle of existence, of what we are, why we are, even where we are, that which wakes us at three in the morning, questioning one's life, the why of it ... and if a human enters the Camino as a pilgrim and these are uppermost in their minds ... it can lead to something quite wonderful.
I forget to say we stay in a hotel where we can use points and stay for free more than one night. Normally I would opt for the traditional albergue otherwise.Hostel Leon allows stays of more than 1 night, and I suspect several of the others do too. It's the 'more pure' type of albergue that will limit to one night.
Edit: looking at booking.com, most of the hostels listed above allow 2 nights so that is not the reason for the 'unpopularity' of these places.
But, as I plan my final push into Santiago next month (I have only been able to go in stages and I am now approaching 70 ), I find myself dreading the last 100 km and wonder if it will even be worth it, given that I seek contemplation and inner spiritual strength from the experience.
I couldn't agree with you more regarding the overall thin skinness of this forum. It seems people will run each other over with their truck to prove how inclusive and ____________ (insert any other term you like) they are. Voicing any other opinion but what is accepted by the "majority" or is not touchy, feely enough will send you to perigrino purgatory. Any and all opinions condemning judgemental statements/opinions are just as judgemental as well. Why can't people just say what they feel and just leave it at that. If you have something to say, than say it. Even if it is a strong rebuttal, unless you are threatening to kill someone's dog, than you should be able to say what you want and the rest of us should not suffer from cardiac arrest or feel so deeply wounded you lose your appetite for your morning Cheerios.I can't help feeling that people have become very thin-skinned and touchy recently. All too ready to yell some variant of the J-word whenever an alternative opinion is voiced. If you have given serious thought to your own choices and are confident that they are justified why get so worked up about a different point of view? There were more than 446,000 pilgrims recorded in Santiago last year. Forums like this one and the various Facebook groups have thousands of members. It strikes me as unrealistic to believe that you can please all of the people all of the time no matter what you choose to do!
Thank you, Felice. I have always walked in March for those very reasons. We'll see how it goes this time as I will straddle Easter!Mito, I suspect that in March you will be fine. I felt the same when I walked for a week in Nov 2022 from SJPP and was wonderfully surprised as to how quiet, uncrowded and spiritual the whole experience was.
And if it does get busy, I'm sure I don't need to tell you, but adapt your route. Stop at 'off stage' locations, walk later in the day etc and the crowds will melt away.
Mito,I think the issue -- to me and others who want to recapture the Camino as it was before tour groups, luggage, and booking ahead became common -- is the feeling of pilgrimage and self-discovery. This IMHO can only be accomplished by walking the distance and carrying your own pack -- at your own pace. Although we all don't hike for religious reasons, many of us do for spiritual or deeply personal reasons. That has become more difficult as the Camino becomes increasingly commercialized. I find, especially as one approaches Santiago, many people moving with paid companies in groups, carrying day packs, and loudly treating the experience as a bucket list holiday. It's clearly not a pilgrimage to them and it takes away from the experience of those of us who are seeking meaning in the experience. I know. I know. "It's your Camino." "Don't judge." I've heard that said so many times to justify the changes that have become inevitable as the Camino become commercialized. But, as I plan my final push into Santiago next month (I have only been able to go in stages and I am now approaching 70 ), I find myself dreading the last 100 km and wonder if it will even be worth it, given that I seek contemplation and inner spiritual strength from the experience. The last time (2022) I managed to get Covid and was stuck in Astorga for weeks. So many of the pilgrims coming through seemed more intent on sprinting to the end than the experience. Eye-opening.
Could be, might be, possibly be; however, another perspective is that the Camino 'never' loses its way . . . it is only people that lose their way but, then again, this is probably wrong because everyone one . . . everyone in life is on a path of some kind or another, whether it be a terrifically good path, a lazy path or a horribly/tragically wrong path. This, in and of itself, is good, wonderfully good.I just read this article.
Alerta en el Camino de Santiago francés tras perder la mitad de sus peregrinos en diez años
Mientras Galicia advierte de la masificación, esta ruta histórica ha perdido peso progresivamente ante otras opciones. La Junta de Castilla y León, territorio con más kilómetros del trazado, prepara un plan de choquewww.elconfidencial.com
Here are some points in English:
"That pilgrims abandon the French path, which is the initial one, the most
traveled one, which comes from medieval origins, clearly worries us. It is
being abandoned because of this overcrowding that is caused by the tourist
desire of the institutions, especially Galician ones. "It is the forceful
opinion of Anselmo Reguera, president of the Association of Friends of the
Camino de León. "The Xunta de Galicia and the archbishopric of Santiago have
encouraged that by completing the last hundred kilometers the Compostela be
awarded. This has created an economic gap from Sarria to Santiago to obtain
the Compostela, and that is not pilgrims, they are hikers.
"The thing about one hundred kilometers to obtain the Compostela is not new,
it comes from 1948, but it is also true that this formula has been increasing
in recent years, so that people do not understand the Camino as we understood
it before as a complete route and take a tasting trail, which is the last
hundred kilometers," says José Ignacio Gutiérrez. A reflection shared by the
Camino Francés Federation. "The Xunta de Galicia has appropriated the Camino,
legally, and has carried out a tourist campaign under the pretext of the
Camino. It talks about historically non-existent paths and the popularity has
transferred it to tourist aspects.
I have always, do now and always will say that there is no right or wrong camino, just different ones with different experiences, costs, difficulty, culture, language, etc.
I took particular note of the comment by Sr. Gutierrez: ...people do not understand the Camino as we understood it before as a complete route..." I can't contest that in the sense that even for us, the camino of today has indeed changed in some ways dramatically from our first camino. And I know that at least for us, we have been seeking lesser walked paths in recent years, even though we always make a point of visiting one of the places on the Frances we hold so dear from our first camino.
I think there was never an idea of a particular starting point to the Camino de Santiago. I can't speak to the earliest times, but in the 80s, when I first came across it, there was the idea that four routes across France converged into two passes (Somport and Cize) and merged by Puente la Reina.I took particular note of the comment by Sr. Gutierrez: ...people do not understand the Camino as we understood it before as a complete route..."
Good point.I like this analogy in a way.
I think it is quite certain that many of the "original" "pure" "whatever other adjective you wish" pilgrims were actually walking for fear of not being allowed entry to heaven for varying reasons. And one can only wonder if they had their scrolls and feather pens confiscated at the doors of each monastery so as not to detract from their pilgrimage.
I think as has been wisely mentioned further up, and the advice we tend to all offer out when the question arises of first time pilgrims/tourists/hikers is that you have to walk your own Camino seen through your own eyes and no one else's - the rest is just noise (albeit quite interesting and thought provoking noise at times).
My first Camino last year was magical and a privilege, so personally it hasn't lost it's way for all, even if that could be considered to be an opinion born out of naivety for some.
Until ill health intervened I undertook all my long distance journeys on foot not as a pilgrim, a rambler or a hiker but simply as a walker. It’s virtually impossible to spend all day outdoors over a number of days without reflecting on “the deeper questions; the riddle of existence etc”. Something wonderful is always likely to result irrespective of how the traveller defines themselves. The mysteries of the universe and the riddle of existence exercise both pilgrims and hikers alike as well as those who listen to earbud music. An earlier poster observed that Camino couldn’t care less about us, our motives or our beliefs. Whatever our identity we are all engaged on a similar journey or we probably wouldn’t be on this site. Let’s just take people as we find them.I agree completely, 100%, absolutely. I am verging on what cannot be written about on here, but - a pilgrimage is a process, an internal/external process, it isn't something that can be Googled to know the answer, or be done in a hiking holiday way ... a pilgrimage is an ancient deep internal process .. a process that commonly doesn't belong to this modern world, the world that believes you can just take something off a shelf, buy it, and experience it ...
Traditionally pilgrimage is religious and, I say again, it is a process, a mainly internal process - a process that is killed dead by using phones to stay in contact with 'home' and take useless photographs, and earbud music and getting online in the evening ..
It is very like this, pilgrimage ... if anyone goes into a retreat, monastic Christian or Buddhist or Yogic, the first thing that happens is that they take away your phones, your tablets, your earbud music, your fiction books - as the monks know that you cannot be there and process through the retreat if you are not there with only you and your mind and whatever thoughts and connection that comes.
This is the ideal of pilgrimage .. everything else is bucket list hiking. So I understand exactly what they are saying, I have been saying it for twenty years now, sadly watching the holiday bucket list hike take over from the pilgrimage that it is supposed to be.
This isn't an attack on hikers - I know they enjoy their holidays, nor is it a call to join a religion - it is about being human, the deeper questions; the riddle of existence, of what we are, why we are, even where we are, that which wakes us at three in the morning, questioning one's life, the why of it ... and if a human enters the Camino as a pilgrim and these are uppermost in their minds ... it can lead to something quite wonderful.
This is the ideal of pilgrimage .. everything else is bucket list hiking.
I agree, and think it is important to keep the interdependence of spiritual and commercial interests in mind. The spiritual minority have always benefited from the commercial interests. Part of God's plan, I believe. The Hebrews got through the famine with the help of the Egyptians. Jesus and Paul moved through their missions on roads built for commercial and military purposes. Part of the responsibility of being a spiritually inclined pilgrim is to maintain course on your personal and unique inner path while travelling physically along the material-world path that your God -- acting through the less spiritually inclined -- provided for you.Nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.
You can observe a lot by just watching.
You better cut the pizza in 4 pieces because I’m not hungry enough to eat 6.
It was impossible to get a conversation going, everybody was talking too much.
Spiritual pilgrims rely on commercial opportunities to enjoy the spirit.
Recreational tourists rely on spiritual pilgrims to season their experience.
Success here is envied and hoped to be captured there.
If Heaven is overcrowded, do you want to stay in the other place?
@Kathar1na posted some interesting statistics from Roncesvalles from 1987 - not so long before our first Caminos. The total number of pilgrims recorded by Roncesvalles that year was about half of the entire Compostela total for the year. Even though there was no specific minimum distance to receive a Compostela. Which suggests that at that time there was a very strong perception of the Camino as being principally a long-distance route.The other is that in the 80s, I think, the goal for most pilgrims would be to walk as far or as much of the route as possible, rather than as little, as seems to be increasingly the case.
I just read this article.
Alerta en el Camino de Santiago francés tras perder la mitad de sus peregrinos en diez años
Mientras Galicia advierte de la masificación, esta ruta histórica ha perdido peso progresivamente ante otras opciones. La Junta de Castilla y León, territorio con más kilómetros del trazado, prepara un plan de choquewww.elconfidencial.com
Here are some points in English:
"That pilgrims abandon the French path, which is the initial one, the most
traveled one, which comes from medieval origins, clearly worries us. It is
being abandoned because of this overcrowding that is caused by the tourist
desire of the institutions, especially Galician ones. "It is the forceful
opinion of Anselmo Reguera, president of the Association of Friends of the
Camino de León. "The Xunta de Galicia and the archbishopric of Santiago have
encouraged that by completing the last hundred kilometers the Compostela be
awarded. This has created an economic gap from Sarria to Santiago to obtain
the Compostela, and that is not pilgrims, they are hikers.
"The thing about one hundred kilometers to obtain the Compostela is not new,
it comes from 1948, but it is also true that this formula has been increasing
in recent years, so that people do not understand the Camino as we understood
it before as a complete route and take a tasting trail, which is the last
hundred kilometers," says José Ignacio Gutiérrez. A reflection shared by the
Camino Francés Federation. "The Xunta de Galicia has appropriated the Camino,
legally, and has carried out a tourist campaign under the pretext of the
Camino. It talks about historically non-existent paths and the popularity has
transferred it to tourist aspects.
I have always, do now and always will say that there is no right or wrong camino, just different ones with different experiences, costs, difficulty, culture, language, etc.
I took particular note of the comment by Sr. Gutierrez: ...people do not understand the Camino as we understood it before as a complete route..." I can't contest that in the sense that even for us, the camino of today has indeed changed in some ways dramatically from our first camino. And I know that at least for us, we have been seeking lesser walked paths in recent years, even though we always make a point of visiting one of the places on the Frances we hold so dear from our first camino.
[emphasis added by me]@Kathar1na posted some interesting statistics from Roncesvalles from 1987 - not so long before our first Caminos. The total number of pilgrims recorded by Roncesvalles that year was about half of the entire Compostela total for the year. Even though there was no specific minimum distance to receive a Compostela. Which suggests that at that time there was a very strong perception of the Camino as being principally a long-distance route.
The thing about one hundred kilometers to obtain the Compostela is not new,
it comes from 1948
Do you have any idea what the 1948 reference is to? I can't find any mention of it online. The 1990 CSJ guide I used on my first Camino made no mention of any minimum distance rule. It did explain that one might be called upon to give a personal account of one's motives and understanding of pilgrimage when requesting a Compostela. I can't recall any mention of a minimum distance in Elias Valiña's guidebook either though I admit that it could easily have been missed through my negligible Spanish. I have definitely read something by Anton Pombo with additional commentary from @Rebekah Scott which linked the introduction of the 100km rule to the 1993 Holy Year. Though that was in the context of a polemic arguing for the increase of the minimum distance to 300km. An idea which I find even less appealing than the 100km rule.So it would seem there was a minimum distance in the 80s, although the fact that neither of us knew of it shows how much attention was being paid to it by people seeking to walk a Camino.
@Rebekah Scott I have very recently read Jack Hitt's "Off The Road". An account of a Camino journey during the astonishing Holy Year of 1993. A lot of what he describes there will be very familiar to both of us. As you know I walked the Frances again last year both solo in midwinter and in company with a mutual friend in summer. So I was very aware on reading Hitt's book that the Camino which he describes and which we both first encountered has largely disappeared now. It is very hard to convey to more recent arrivals that the shiny, easy and comfortable Camino of 2024 is an evolution from a much simpler but more demanding creature. And even more difficult to express why some of us regret that change in some aspects without sounding like one of the characters in the Monty Python "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch. I do not think the recent trends can be reversed. I just hope that there will remain opportunities across the wide spectrum of Camino routes for all of us to feel at home.A pilgrimage traditionally is about simplicity, traveling with the minimum, learning what you can do without, trusting in God and fellow travelers to meet your needs.
I know I´m derailing the thread, but on a point of accuracy, that sketch was first performed on the ´At Last the 1948 Show´, on ITV in 1967. But I take your point.Monty Python "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch
Thank you. Being a natural pedant myself I appreciate attention to detail when I see it!I know I´m derailing the thread, but on a point of accuracy, that sketch was first performed on the ´At Last the 1948 Show´, on ITV in 1967. But I take your point.
Huh? He refers to 1948 - a Holy Year btw. I think that the line about a 100 km minimum requirement in 1948 is simply wrong.So it would seem there was a minimum distance in the 80s
Maybe. I don't know enough to argue with José Ignacio Gutiérrez, the spokesperson of the Association of Friends of the Camino de Santiago of Spain. I do know that no one was talking about such a limit in the 80s. The idea was to walk as much of the Camino as one could, not as little.Huh? He refers to 1948 - a Holy Year btw. I think that the line about a 100 km minimum requirement in 1948 is simply wrong.
And that remains the idea for many of us!The idea was to walk as much of the Camino as one could, not as little.
Please elaborate some on the first part of your statement above (I put it in bold). You've had more opportunity to see this than I. With respect.I wish hiking holidaymakers would respect the needs of pilgrims as much as they demand the pilgrims respect their hiking holiday attitudes.
True. But increasingly there are many whose aim appears to be to tick the pilgrim office boxes and collect the paper prize with the absolute minimum of effort - physical or mental. Trading off cash for effort in the use of luggage services, travel agencies and so on. I have some personal rules for myself which many might consider outdated and possibly even draconian. I dislike much of the commercialisation of the Caminos. But I will not publicly criticise an individual for making use of whatever services are legitimately available to them. Provided someone stays within the laws of Spain, the house rules of wherever they may be staying, and the pilgrim office rules (if they choose to ask for a Compostela) then they are free to do as they wish. They do not need my permission but equally they are not entitled to my approval or endorsement.And that remains the idea for many of us!
#whathesaidThe Camino, camino is. If some of the people who wander down it’s ways have no notion of camino that matters not a jot to camino. If the hoteliers, restaurateurs and merchants scattered along the ways are gazing, disgruntled, at the fortune afforded their Galician counterparts camino doesn’t give a shit, and neither do I.
For me Camino is camino. It has nothing to do with economic benefits, trading opportunities or balance sheet bottom lines. If the restaurateurs of Santiago want to complain about too many pilgrims in the same month as those of Leon winge about a shortage let them. None of that has anything to do with Camino
I wish hiking holidaymakers would respect the needs of pilgrims as much as they demand the pilgrims respect their hiking holiday attitudes.
I think we all have met the kind of person she's referring to. Anyway elaboration would lead down the road to breaking the Forum rules.Please elaborate some on the first part of your statement above (I put it in bold). You've had more opportunity to see this than I.
And it's equally difficult to explain the value of engaging with this simpler and more demanding creature to those who are looking for something else. We essentially live on different planets - and those who live on the planet of the older way seem to be a minority. As @Bradypus says, hopefully there will continue to be paths to suit occupants of both planets for a long time to come.It is very hard to convey to more recent arrivals that the shiny, easy and comfortable Camino of 2024 is an evolution from a much simpler but more demanding creature.
Well, I certainly have no idea of what planet I occupy. I find the dichotomy to be artificial and divisive.We essentially live on different planets - and those who live on the planet of the older way seem to be a minority. As @Bradypus says, hopefully there will continue to be paths to suit occupants of both planets for a long time to come.
Is that an argumentum ab auctoritateI don't know enough to argue with José Ignacio Gutiérrez, the spokesperson of the Association of Friends of the Camino de Santiago of Spain.
Thank you.Is that an argumentum ab auctoritate? I simply don't believe everything straight away that I read online or in a newspaper article, especially when it appears to be the one and only source to date, I know that people can be convinced that their incorrect facts are correct facts - even esteemed and/or qualified authorities in their fields, that their memory can fail, that news articles have misprints and contain muddled up info.
Now matter how Compostelas (I think at the time they were still called Compostelanas, or maybe even just diplomas or certificados, and the text still confirmed that the holder had confessed and taken the Eucharist - unlike today's Compostela) were awarded in 1948 it is of no relevance for today's 100 km requirement which was communicated to the public by letter dated 6 July 1999 - copies available in electronic form. The letter was signed by a Cathedral representative, with Oficina de Peregrinaciones S.A.M.I Catedral in the letterhead, and it was addressed to the parishes of the Caminos de Santiago and the albergue managers and the Amigos del Camino and the Delegados Diocesanos. Some time later the 100 km requirement was also printed in the Camino credencials for the first time.
I read up a little on the Holy Year 1948. Apparently it was characterised by a massive Catholic youth movement. Something like 70,000 to 100,000 Catholic young people went on pilgrimage and arrived in Santiago. It would be interesting to read what Camino or pilgrimage meant in those days to people. I am a bit bemused by this thread, and the thought occurred to me whether the equation Camino = pilgrimage is even correct. We read - and some write - about the Camino losing its way or its spirit. Replace the word Camino by the word pilgrimage. Does pilgrimage lose its way? Or its spirit? Just wondering ...
Perhaps I should have used another metaphor. All I know is that I do not 'get' the mindset of a lot of people I encounter along the way. And they do not 'get' mine.Well, I certainly have no idea of what planet I occupy. I find the dichotomy to be artificial and divisive.
You got there before me.I think it's fine to say that is what the Camino should be, but I do have to wonder if it ever was.
This is not a rhetorical question (I do not know the answer): but how many of the pilgrims in medieval times actually went on a deeply spiritual journey; and how many went because they needed a break from mundane life and this was one of the few options society offered them; or went because the whole congregation went and they could conveniently join; or went because they were rich nobles who could afford a vacation?
When I read the Canterbury Tales I don't get the sense that these were all supremely pious people on a journey of spiritual self-improvement: a lot of them just seem to want to have fun.
Surely the same would have applied to plenty of medieval pilgrims walking to Santiago - that a lot of them were mainly occupied with enjoying the company, telling stories and jokes, eating food, flirting, collecting baubles, hitching rides on carts -- rather than pondering the deep questions of life?
But I can't judge if there are (relatively) more or less pilgrims like that nowadays.
I doubt very much that medieval pilgrims made the journey just for a break from everyday life. It was a difficult and often dangerous undertaking and embarking on a pilgrimage would not be taken lightly, in fact it was ordered as a punishment in some cases. While there was no doubt some frivolity and entertainment to be had at times, Chaucer's jolly pilgrims are a work of satirical fiction.I think it's fine to say that is what the Camino should be, but I do have to wonder if it ever was.
This is not a rhetorical question (I do not know the answer): but how many of the pilgrims in medieval times actually went on a deeply spiritual journey; and how many went because they needed a break from mundane life and this was one of the few options society offered them; or went because the whole congregation went and they could conveniently join; or went because they were rich nobles who could afford a vacation?
When I read the Canterbury Tales I don't get the sense that these were all supremely pious people on a journey of spiritual self-improvement: a lot of them just seem to want to have fun.
Surely the same would have applied to plenty of medieval pilgrims walking to Santiago - that a lot of them were mainly occupied with enjoying the company, telling stories and jokes, eating food, flirting, collecting baubles, hitching rides on carts -- rather than pondering the deep questions of life?
But I can't judge if there are (relatively) more or less pilgrims like that nowadays.
I am just a ‘bucket list’ hiker really and have no problem with that! I had never really heard of the word ‘pilgrim’ before I came across this forum. Maybe vaguely! It gives off ancient images! I certainly wouldn’t want to be seen as one.. it sounds so unglamorous! Not for the Tinder profile! I still don’t really know what it is tbh! I think I know what ‘pilgrimage’ is but beyond that…? Do pilgrims go home and live a certain lifestyle after SDC? I have no idea.I doubt very much that medieval pilgrims made the journey just for a break from everyday life. It was a difficult and often dangerous undertaking and embarking on a pilgrimage would not be taken lightly, in fact it was ordered as a punishment in some cases. While there was no doubt some frivolity and entertainment to be had at times, Chaucer's jolly pilgrims are a work of satirical fiction.
We are more the same than we are different, but we each believe our own way is likely the better one. I can only say what is best for me. I am sad though when I suggest something simple and get a reply that the other is seeking something more upscale.I am just a ‘bucket list’ hiker really and have no problem with that! I had never really heard of the word ‘pilgrim’ before I came across this forum. Maybe vaguely! It gives off ancient images! I certainly wouldn’t want to be seen as one.. it sounds so unglamorous! Not for the Tinder profile! I still don’t really know what it is tbh! I think I know what ‘pilgrimage’ is but beyond that…? Do pilgrims go home and live a certain lifestyle after SDC? I have no idea.
I see the posts about best trainers, best underwear, best restaurants, what to buy to carry euros, long distance taxis, snorers, shower hoggers, alarm setters, spreadsheets and struggle a bit given this forum is the Camino ‘hardcore’. Aren’t we nearly all just hikers who are taking a bit of time out and reflecting? And spending a huge amount of money to do so! Some may embrace hardship as a ‘lifestyle choice’ on Camino but that seems about it to me!
Aren’t we all just the same?
A friend of mine walked the Shikoku pilgrimage circuit and posted a blog about it. The first comment from a reader was someone asking if there was luggage transport available because otherwise they were not interested...I am sad though when I suggest something simple and get a reply that the other is seeking something more upscale.
No. I am not a hiker. You did ask!I am just a ‘bucket list’ hiker really and have no problem with that! I had never really heard of the word ‘pilgrim’ before I came across this forum. Maybe vaguely! It gives off ancient images! I certainly wouldn’t want to be seen as one.. it sounds so unglamorous! Not for the Tinder profile! I still don’t really know what it is tbh! I think I know what ‘pilgrimage’ is but beyond that…? Do pilgrims go home and live a certain lifestyle after SDC? I have no idea.
I see the posts about best trainers, best underwear, best restaurants, what to buy to carry euros, long distance taxis, snorers, shower hoggers, alarm setters, spreadsheets and struggle a bit given this forum is the Camino ‘hardcore’. Aren’t we nearly all just hikers who are taking a bit of time out and reflecting? And spending a huge amount of money to do so! Some may embrace hardship as a ‘lifestyle choice’ on Camino but that seems about it to me!
Aren’t we all just the same?
I see the pilgrimage as a great big historic church that is open to tourism as well as worshipers. It bothers me when the tourist visitors ("hikers") crash through the pews and stand in the aisle and flash their photos during worship times, and are deeply offended when the worshipers tell them to be respectful and cut it out... to have the tourists tell the worshipers to reschedule their services, go somewhere else to pray, or consider everyone who comes through the door a full member of the congregation, or else they're being "judgmental" or "divisive."Please elaborate some on the first part of your statement above (I put it in bold). You've had more opportunity to see this than I. With respect.
Same, so there are at least two of us. It's too complicated to explain.No. I am not a hiker. You did ask!
Aren’t we nearly all just hikers who are taking a bit of time out and reflecting?
This is what has made the camino so special to me: we are all so very, very different. Among the many I have met over the years, so many are unforgettable characters who walk the camino for a seemingly endless list of reasons.I am just a ‘bucket list’ hiker really and have no problem with that! I had never really heard of the word ‘pilgrim’ before I came across this forum. Maybe vaguely! It gives off ancient images! I certainly wouldn’t want to be seen as one.. it sounds so unglamorous! Not for the Tinder profile! I still don’t really know what it is tbh! I think I know what ‘pilgrimage’ is but beyond that…? Do pilgrims go home and live a certain lifestyle after SDC? I have no idea.
I see the posts about best trainers, best underwear, best restaurants, what to buy to carry euros, long distance taxis, snorers, shower hoggers, alarm setters, spreadsheets and struggle a bit given this forum is the Camino ‘hardcore’. Aren’t we nearly all just hikers who are taking a bit of time out and reflecting? And spending a huge amount of money to do so! Some may embrace hardship as a ‘lifestyle choice’ on Camino but that seems about it to me!
Aren’t we all just the same?
Thank you for the explanation; I understand what you wrote better now. I was thinking your prior post was more of a "hiker" versus pilgrim issue. I see now that your issue was more of a "hiker" versus worshipper or local thing. I'm sure I'm oversimplifying with this but I don't see any need for further clarification.It bothers me when the tourist visitors ("hikers") crash through the pews and stand in the aisle and flash their photos during worship times, and are deeply offended when the worshipers tell them to be respectful and cut it out...
I am sure that it was one component for many people along with a sense of adventure for others and also a desire to escape an unhappy home or an oppressive Lord. In a much more restrictive society Pilgrimage could be one of the few outlets available to many people.I doubt very much that medieval pilgrims made the journey just for a break from everyday life. It was a difficult and often dangerous undertaking and embarking on a pilgrimage would not be taken lightly, in fact it was ordered as a punishment in some cases. While there was no doubt some frivolity and entertainment to be had at times, Chaucer's jolly pilgrims are a work of satirical fiction.
Clear differences exist, but the extreme stereotypes are very rare. Most of us are interesting and well-meaning bundles of complexity, and all of us annoy others at times. An open and honest discussion about ourselves should not spend much energy on putting ourselves or other people into two categories that we are tempted to argue about.Clear differences actually do exist out there, and here on the Forum - I think openly talking about that is both honest and important. We have different intentions, is all
It seemed that she was saying that it's a disrespectful hiker vs a worshiper thing.Thank you for the explanation; I understand what you wrote better now. I was thinking your prior post was more of a "hiker" versus pilgrim issue. I see now that your issue was more of a "hiker" versus worshipper or local thing
Yes, I have. I have changed. I don't worry about or keep many things. I have downsized my overall footprint and now I think about how I can further simplify my life. I am much more physically active and walk much more. I appreciate people and experiences now than I did before. There may not be a dramatic change for many, but I personally have changed.Do pilgrims go home and live a certain lifestyle after SDC?
Well done! Good to hear!Yes, I have. I have changed. I don't worry about or keep many things. I have downsized my overall footprint and now I think about how I can further simplify my life. I am much more physically active and walk much more. I appreciate people and experiences now than I did before. There may not be a dramatic change for many, but I personally have changed.
But there seems to be a contradiction in the article: is it bemoaning the fact that the Francés has lost its popularity or that it has lost its character? I would question whether either is true and if so whether they are mutually exclusive.
OK, so the Camino Francés numbers of pilgrims don't grow as wildly as those on the Portuguese or maybe they even go down slightly. Seen from the point of view of us who want to walk along the CF, is that a loss in either the literal sense and the figurative sense?
I think Rebekah was writing metaphorically, and not literally about the physical church structures on the Camino. She did begin with:Thank you for the explanation; I understand what you wrote better now. I was thinking your prior post was more of a "hiker" versus pilgrim issue. I see now that your issue was more of a "hiker" versus worshipper or local thing. I'm sure I'm oversimplifying with this but I don't see any need for further clarification.
As for my quote of you; Our first church visit was at the start of a mass (Pamplona cathedral). We sat in the back of the nave and the mass occured in the neighboring open chapel. A parishioner had to get up, go to the nave and give a very loud shush to the tourists.
I read her as equating "pilgrims" with "worshippers" and "hikers" with "tourists". I agree with a lot of what she says, although not everything, of course. She loses me at the end when she says:I see the pilgrimage as a great big historic church that is open to tourism as well as worshipers.
As I wrote above, I think the Camino is still healthy and continues to afford plenty of opportunity for spiritual and religious experience and transformation. I don't draw the clear line between spectators and participants that she does, I think it is much more of a spectrum than a binary.The spectators are crowding out the participants.
Is this what you're thinking of?And for oh so too many it don’t mean a thing if that botafumeiro don’t swing…
I doubt very much that medieval pilgrims made the journey just for a break from everyday life. It was a difficult and often dangerous undertaking and embarking on a pilgrimage would not be taken lightly, in fact it was ordered as a punishment in some cases. While there was no doubt some frivolity and entertainment to be had at times, Chaucer's jolly pilgrims are a work of satirical fiction.
And some were give a choice - prison or pilgrimage.I’ve heard medieval historians say that some did go on pilgrimage to see something of the big world beyond their village…
A practice which still continues to this day. Last year I came across the remarkable French Seuil Camino programme.And some were give a choice - prison or pilgrimage.
Yes, we met a lad and his mentor from a similar program that was being tried in Italy in 2017.A practice which still continues to this day. Last year I came across the remarkable French Seuil Camino programme.
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