Multiple credentials with same person?

[Marcia M]

Very much enjoyed walking the Camino Portugues from Vigo. Many kind people and lovely flowers.

Between Pontevedra and Caldes des Reis there was a man at a restaurant with about 25 credentials, and he was stamping them all. Has anyone seen this? Is there an explanation?

 

[SYates]

Sigh, yes, there are two:

He is the driver for a group of pilgrims that walks the Camino only on weekends. Something quite frequent and legitimate, it takes those pilgrims years to complete on Camino.
He is a ... that intends to sell the credentiales (hint, they never have the personal details filled out and are completely blank on the first page) later in Santiago to tourists that want to get a 'real Compostela'.

Version 1 is the more likely one. Buen Camino, SY

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Tour operator is my guess.

 

[t2andreo]

In 2016, another veteran forum member met me in Santiago. They related a strikingly similar story of a man walking with a small group of pilgrims from Sarria.

Every time the small group stopped, the one man produced and stamped with a sello, a pile of about 30 - 40 credencials and stamped everyone, at every location. In this manner, each credential would have multiple stamps every day for the Sarria-Santiago stretch.

Curiously, or perhaps not, this same person was subsequently seen greeting a coach / bus load of people dressed like pilgrims, in identical group tee shirts, at the cafe just before Alto de Gaia about 4 km from the Pilgrim Office, overlooking Santiago. The man was seen calling names and distributing pre-stamped pilgrim credencials to persons getting off the big bus. Sounds curious to me.

This group then headed off, now walking, the final 4 km, toward Santiago the Pilgrim Office, and their Compostelas.

The forum member who related this to me is utterly reliable. I am merely relating the story as told to me. but, it seems to me that, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, the chances are the creature might just be a duck...

Just sayin...

Comment:

Yes, cheating of all types occurs. It has gone on since the inception of the pilgrimage over a thousand years ago. Human nature being what it is, this will continue.

And yes, while there are technical ways to head this off, doing so, in many person's opinions, would destroy the essential nature of the pilgrimage and the Compostela process. So, until that day comes, when someone asks for advice or assistance on how to stop this, I remain silent and do as I am bid.

One suspects that the powers that be are prepared to accept some measure of fraud, knowing that, in the final analysis and judgement, the fraudulent pilgrim only has to explain their misdeeds to his or her God or whatever being or entity they ultimately answer to at the end of their earthly existence.

My only opposing comments are that: (1) accepting the fraud consumes and wastes finite resources at the Pilgrim Office; and (2) it devalues the accomplishment of legitimate pilgrims.

END

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I say the Pilgrim Office should start giving a test about the Camino before handing out Compostelas!

What is the name of the albergue by the river just past a bridge?
What is the distance between A and B?
What is the name of the church leaving Melide?
How many times did you have to cross a river by stepping on stones since Sarria?
Name two trick to avoid or cure blisters?
What is Compeed?
Describe your albergue routine.

 

[jo webber]

Maybe at test with only a two part question.
What was in your pack when you started and what was in your pack at the end of your Camino?

 

[dougfitz]

I say the Pilgrim Office should start giving a test about the Camino before handing out Compostelas!

What is the name of the albergue by the river just past a bridge?
What is the distance between A and B?
What is the name of the church leaving Melide?
How many times did you have to cross a river by stepping on stones since Sarria?
Name two trick to avoid or cure blisters?
What is Compeed?
Describe your albergue routine.

And anyone who has all the answers correct should fail

 

[trecile]

Mayer they should require all pilgrims to wear a fitbit or other activity tracker to prove that they actually walked.

 

[SYates]

I say the Pilgrim Office should start giving a test about the Camino before handing out Compostelas!

What is the name of the albergue by the river just past a bridge?
What is the distance between A and B?
What is the name of the church leaving Melide?
How many times did you have to cross a river by stepping on stones since Sarria?
Name two trick to avoid or cure blisters?
What is Compeed?
Describe your albergue routine.

Lol, that way I wouldn't have got a single Compostela in my whole pilgrim life - bad memory. Now if you would ask me for the color of the friendly dog in a village some days ago - that I could answer easily ;-)

Mayer they should require all pilgrims to wear a fitbit or other activity tracker to prove that they actually walked.

Dangles her FitBit from her hand - swing, one meter, swing two meters, swing ...

Buen Camino, SY

 

[RobertS26]

I would criticize people who buy pre-stamped credentials in Santiago so they can obtain a Compostella without walking, but then the "everyone is allowed is to do the Camino their way" crowd would criticize me.

 

[t2andreo]

Robert:

You are correct, but the "Camino Rule" against judging another person's Camino applies only in the correct context, and only concerning pilgrims. The fraudsters, if that is what they are, are not pilgrims, they are pretending to be pilgrims.

This is probably the only instance where, IMHO, someone can be held to not be a "true pilgrim."

I support efforts to crack down on fraud, provided they do not upend the entire concept of the Camino, or devalue the accomplishments of the overwhelming majority of legitimate pilgrims. The Camino has meandered along for more than a thousand years, complete with people committing fraud, as well as serious crimes. Yet, it survives.

What is required to start changing things to identify and eliminate fraud is the will, starting from the top at the Cathedral. However, they first must determine and acknowledge that a problem exists. I do not think, again IMHO that we are there yet.

Once a problem is identified and described, and the will exists to address the problem, cost effective solutions are not all that difficult to find.

I hope this helps.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Mayer they should require all pilgrims to wear a fitbit or other activity tracker to prove that they actually walked.

I can just imaging the dude walking with 52 fitbits around his necks for the bussing tourists .

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I should care why?

 

[AJ]

My only opposing comments are that: ...and (2) it devalues the accomplishment of legitimate pilgrims.

END

Really?!

 

[DanielH]

I say the Pilgrim Office should start giving a test about the Camino before handing out Compostelas!

What is the name of the albergue by the river just past a bridge?
What is the distance between A and B?
What is the name of the church leaving Melide?
How many times did you have to cross a river by stepping on stones since Sarria?
Name two trick to avoid or cure blisters?
What is Compeed?
Describe your albergue routine.

only problem is that while I've walked the entire Camino Frances, I can't answer your questions except for the last two. Unless I can refer to the Brierley guide. LOL

 

[t2andreo]

I should care why?

IMHO, The longer the tactic is tolerated, the more it will spread. Human nature can be dark at times. Some people will always seek an advantage, an easier way out, a cut-corner, or a "cheat" to mitigate honest effort and commitment. This is not something of my invention. I observe and report.

My concern is less for the present, than for the near future. What happens when the percentage of "cheaters" rises to even single digit volumes? I have no idea what it is at present, but I feel certain the number is almost infinitesimal compared to the overall volume...today...

But, what happens when the Pilgrim Office has to issue Compostelas to - let's say 2 - 3 percent cheaters. I will tell you from experience that even this small number on a busy day means the difference between a two-hour queue and a one-hour queue. The reason is simple, if I were cheating, I would show up at the busiest time of day to game that the staff is under pressure to move the queue and likely ask fewer questions.

Queuing theory is very sensitive to changes in any variable to the equation. The numbers of people seeking a Compostela and waiting in the queue is but one variable. I was a serving immigration officer for some 20-years. Among my management responsibilities, I was responsible for manpower planning at international airports.

We had sophisticated, automated queuing simulation models to evaluate staffing requirements at times of the day, based on aircraft arrivals. So, I know what the addition of even a small number of additional people at the right / wrong moment can do to the overall situation.

The same sensitivity rolls forward through the entire office process: space required for both workers and pilgrims, number of people interviewing arriving pilgrims, consumables, such as paper certificates, as well as perimeter security. Most all of these variables have costs associated with them.

What happens when the next Holy Year occurs in 2021? Factor in a 3 percent cheat factor and the volume at times of the day can easily overwhelm whatever resources are marshaled to address the demand.

Ultimately, the question for management becomes, how much fraud in the system can be tolerated before it becomes a drag on the entire process? I do not have the answer. I possess only the awareness and rudimentary evidence that there are problems, however small, at present. I control neither the official identification, measurement or policy regarding this phenomena.

Wanna see a riot? Come by the Pilgrim Office on a sunny 35-degree summer day in late July, near the Feast of Santiago, when the queue exceeds two-hours (as it does like clockwork on these summer days), and legitimate pilgrims who walked the entire route, "out" a group of cheaters...

I have seen arguments, shoving and pushing over perceived line cutting over my three years volunteering. People DO get testy after walking for a month, only to have to wait in a queue for anything. The police have been called to handle the occasional rowdy person who will not take "no" for an answer. But, if and when cheating gets to the scale where other pilgrims start to point them out, I fear the crowd-sourced consequences.

The current scale or volume of cheating to obtain a Compostela may be very small, and many folks may simply not care, at least now. But they will eventually, if the trend continues. How about customized Compostelas on e-Bay? I am frankly surprised it has not yet been attempted.

I hope this helps.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I am sorry, but I still don't see why I should worry about cheaters. They diminish nothing of the accomplishments of the people who comply with the rather arbitrary rules.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I am sorry, but I still don't see why I should worry about cheaters. They diminish nothing of the accomplishments of the people who comply with the rather arbitrary rules.

Who says it's about an accomplishment, but rather respect for the rules set up by the Cathedral, the organisation who gets to decide what constitutes this particular pilgrimage.

Why would you want that certificate if you don't care what it stands for?

Why would you walk this pilgrimage route if you don't care what it stands for?

And why would you flaunt for disregard for the Cathedral, this pilgrimage and for those who do follow the rules in front of those who do believe.

It it about faith and religion after all. Is nothing sacred anymore? Not even a sacred route whose only reason for being is based on a religion and its rules?

And what about all those volunteers who give of their time, energy, work, because they believe in this route as a pilgrimage, with its rules, who keep albergues open, clean, welcome us with open arms who do all this as an expression of their faith and because they believe in this route as a sacred one. Would they be doing this to support the tourist trade and for the benefit of private wallets?

It is not about wether or not others are taking away from my accomplishment, as walking the Camino is not about an accomplishment. For that you can go walk anywhere else that has no religious meaning. But on a religious pilgrimage, a Catholic pilgrimage, on this pilgrimage, I am sorry, but the Cathedral gets to decide what the rules are when it comes to the proof you have walked it and under what conditions. Nothing arbitrary then.

I wonder how many would walk the 100km, queue to get their Compostela under false pretences, if they also had to go to confession in order to get their precious vaccation souvenir.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Who says it's about an accomplishment, but rather respect for the rules set up by the Cathedral, the organisation who gets to decide what constitutes this particular pilgrimage.

Why would you want that certificate if you don't care what it stands for?

Why would you walk this pilgrimage route if you don't care what it stands for?

And why would you flaunt for disregard for the Cathedral, this pilgrimage and for those who do follow the rules in front of those who do believe.

It it about faith and religion after all. Is nothing sacred anymore? Not even a sacred route whose only reason for being is based on a religion and its rules?

And what about all those volunteers who give of their time, energy, work, because they believe in this route as a pilgrimage, with its rules, who keep albergues open, clean, welcome us with open arms who do all this as an expression of their faith and because they believe in this route as a sacred one. Would they be doing this to support the tourist trade and for the benefit of private wallets?

It is not about wether or not others are taking away from my accomplishment, as walking the Camino is not about an accomplishment. For that you can go walk anywhere else that has no religious meaning. But on a religious pilgrimage, a Catholic pilgrimage, on this pilgrimage, I am sorry, but the Cathedral gets to decide what the rules are when it comes to the proof you have walked it and under what conditions. Nothing arbitrary then.

I wonder how many would walk the 100km, queue to get their Compostela under false pretences, if they also had to go to confession in order to get their precious vaccation souvenir.

Triple like @Anemone del Camino, your reply combines passion with factual information. Also @t2andreo thank you for providing interesting and relevant background information. It is all too easy for we pilgrims to overlook the essential role played by the (unpaid) work of people and (voluntary) organisations that make it possible for us to walk the Camino as pilgrimage.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

An excellent blog about what a pilgrimage is, and what the pilgrimage to Santiago in particular is. Just posted now in the San Salvador FB pages.

https://antonioromansanchezrodriguez.blogspot.ca/2017/06/peregrinacion-y-camino.html

 

[t2andreo]

Thank you to those who posted in support of my posting. To those of you who disagree, I respect that disagreement too.

But, I respectfully suggest that turning a blind eye to the cheating phenomenon is not an option if we are to protect and preserve the Camino, as we know it. IMHO, we have a positive duty to try to maintain the Camino and its institutions for future generations, even if they may not care.

Personally, my concern for this issue and others has more to do with protecting the Camino from encroaching secularization and being commoditized. Over time, if left unchecked, cutting corners and cheating become an accepted way of doing things. Once that happens, the Camino is lost. It becomes a "dumbed down" version of its' former self.

I will not go into hypothetical outcomes. But, I can assure you that in the outlying years, authentic / traditional pilgrims will be on the losing end of the equation.

It matters not that the overwhelming number of pilgrims are, at present, respectful and follow the rules. Across the spectrum of human interaction and relationships, we have many, many examples of situations of where "a few bad apples can indeed spoil the entire basket..."

For example, if you owned a wooden boat and one or more planks showed signs of rot, do you repair the boat when it is possible, or wait until it gives way, lets the water in and you sink while fishing in the ocean? The metaphor here is similar.

Our collective "boat" is showing signs of needing some preventative repair? Do we repair it when it is cost-effective and doable, or do we wait until the exception become the rule and we are swamped by scofflaws.

I agree and respect disagreement. I always have and always will. But, (and with respect) if you do not care, or do not contribute to a solution when one is called for, then do you not (by definition) become part of the problem. Is apathy tantamount to agreement?

I do NOT have all the answers. At present, I do have questions. I am not issuing a "call to arms." All I seek to do is raise consciousness, and at least get the veteran pilgrims to agree that the cheating phenomenon is one that should be carefully observed, measured, and learned about now, so changes to processes and rules can be made by the relevant authorities when and if it becomes necessary.

Thank you again for your support and understanding.

 

[AJ]

This thread is turning into a rant. A rather amusing rant!

 

[NicP]

This thread is turning into a rant. A rather amusing rant!

In my opinion, both sides of this debate have raised perspectives that have clear merit, and these perspectives are not mutually exclusive. @AJ - you may see it as a rant - for me, @t2andreo writes passionately about something he obviously cares about very much. I'm happy that there are people around who care about preserving the Camino for future generations. I also appreciate the respectiful manner in which @t2andreo puts across his point. As with all things in life, change is enivetible for the Camino de Santiago. I am hopeful that the essence of the Camino will remain, and I feel reassured when I hear that others share this goal with passion.

 

[Jeff Crawley]

Lol, that way I wouldn't have got a single Compostela in my whole pilgrim life - bad memory. Now if you would ask me for the color of the friendly dog in a village some days ago - that I could answer easily ;-)



Dangles her FitBit from her hand - swing, one meter, swing two meters, swing ...

Buen Camino, SY

Recently forgot to take my fitbit off at the ukulele group - two hours of hard rock uke gave me 5700 steps!

 

[Jeff Crawley]

I say the Pilgrim Office should start giving a test about the Camino before handing out Compostelas!

What is the name of the albergue by the river just past a bridge?
What is the distance between A and B?
What is the name of the church leaving Melide?
How many times did you have to cross a river by stepping on stones since Sarria?
Name two trick to avoid or cure blisters?
What is Compeed?
Describe your albergue routine.

But that doesn't take into account "Pilgrim Brain", that groundhog state of mind that causes you to look back over your shoulder in puzzlement when a fellow pilgrim asks you where you stayed last night.

 

[Tio Huero]

I respect and admire those of you who have strong feelings about what the Camino means. My memories of the nuns preaching that "one only cheats oneself," remain but I'm not sure there is a sure way of distinguishing a cheater from a "genuine" pilgrim. I would never try to "out" a suspected cheater since some of us clean up well after a shower and shave.

 

[C clearly]

Not sure what "cheating" means in the broad pilgrim context and I don't care much about definitions of a genuine pilgrim, but telling lies at the Pilgrim office would seem to qualify as cheating!

 

[alansykes]

IMHO, The longer the tactic is tolerated, the more it will spread. Human nature can be dark at times. Some people will always seek an advantage, an easier way out, a cut-corner, or a "cheat" to mitigate honest effort and commitment. This is not something of my invention. I observe and report.

My concern is less for the present, than for the near future. What happens when the percentage of "cheaters" rises to even single digit volumes? I have no idea what it is at present, but I feel certain the number is almost infinitesimal compared to the overall volume...today...

But, what happens when the Pilgrim Office has to issue Compostelas to - let's say 2 - 3 percent cheaters. I will tell you from experience that even this small number on a busy day means the difference between a two-hour queue and a one-hour queue. The reason is simple, if I were cheating, I would show up at the busiest time of day to game that the staff is under pressure to move the queue and likely ask fewer questions.
.

I'm with falcon on this one, the cheaters really only cheat themselves, and I doubt they really add to the queue that much. I've only ever arrived in November and December, and never had to queue for a compostela, and I've only once been asked any questions, and I think that was curiousity rather than fraud-detection. They've looked at my credencial (and I've never bothered to get 2 stamps a day for the final 100km), done the last stamp and given me my compostela. When I turned up from Catalonia, the nice young man asked me to explain my somewhat convoluted route from Tortosa, and whistled flatteringly at my explanation, otherwise they've shown no interest at all (I'm not entirely sure why I still collect it, other than wondering how they will account for my departure point in the monthly round up - disappointingly, last December I was anonymously "Resto Andalucia con 8 (0,28%)" when I left from Almeria).

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?"

 

[WayWalker]

I say the Pilgrim Office should start giving a test about the Camino before handing out Compostelas!

What is the name of the albergue by the river just past a bridge?
What is the distance between A and B?
What is the name of the church leaving Melide?
How many times did you have to cross a river by stepping on stones since Sarria?
Name two trick to avoid or cure blisters?
What is Compeed?
Describe your albergue routine.

Hahaha, I walked it and I would flunk that!!!

 

[HedaP]

I say the Pilgrim Office should start giving a test about the Camino before handing out Compostelas!

What is the name of the albergue by the river just past a bridge?
What is the distance between A and B?
What is the name of the church leaving Melide?
How many times did you have to cross a river by stepping on stones since Sarria?
Name two trick to avoid or cure blisters?
What is Compeed?
Describe your albergue routine.

Or "Please show me your feet".

 

[dougfitz]

All I seek to do is raise consciousness, and at least get the veteran pilgrims to agree that the cheating phenomenon is one that should be carefully observed, measured, and learned about now, so changes to processes and rules can be made by the relevant authorities when and if it becomes necessary.

@t2andreo, I generally consider your posts as sources of wise and sage advice, but this is far more passion than practicality. There are many issues here, not just with your suggestion.

1. The evidence that this is a problem that needs to be resolved is at best scant, if not non-existent.
2. If it does exist, it is one for the Santago diocese to resolve, even were we to have a point of view on that.
3. I doubt we could form a cohesive position in any case.
4. And I doubt we even form a stakeholder group that the diocesan staff at Santiago cathedral would feel the need to heed on these matters.

So I think our time and energy would be better spent on what we generally do well on this forum, and help each other. That does not mean glossing over the problems, but lets not tilt at windmills either.

On the specifics you have raised, you won't have my support on all af the measures you are suggesting, and my view is some of the measures proposed by others are just risable. They have been a wonderful distraction, and perhaps best left at that.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Graffiti and litter ruin the Camino. Fight them. Cheating is a mental issue, and at worst ruins only that Compostela. Ignore it. At some point, each of us may have to save our own souls, and leave others to do likewise!!!

 

[notion900]

Refreshingly pithy insights from @falcon269

 

[t2andreo]

Doug:

I actually agree with everything you expressed. Thank you for reasonably countering my diatribe. I was venting my proverbial spleen.

While I do try hard not to be judgmental, there are a few things that cause me to get agitated. Cheating and corruption are two such themes. I was one of those folks who was raised to play by the system, wait my turn, respect queues, and defer to others. However, when others seek to short-circuit or cheat the system, it agitates me. But, that is MY problem to deal with, and I shall.

But, that said, everything you stated is correct. My position, and the position of those who might agree that something may need to be done, should probably simply keep our own counsel until the time is right, and we are asked to contribute.

Thanks again for your observations...I am done now...

 

[RobertS26]

Have you ever noticed how society only works unless we all honor pieces of paper that represent something of value or something to be the truth? Let me give an example.

In the United States, it costs the government 10 cents to print a one dollar bill and 10 cents to print a hundred dollar bill. Other than the artwork, the bills are the exact same size, the exact same weight, and the exact same color. Yet, we as a society, accept that the one hundred dollar bill is worth one hundred times the one dollar bill. Why is that?

Because the monetary system only works when we all agree to the rules and enforce those rules.

I want my Compostella to have value. I want it to stand for something. An achievement that is not easily bought for 20 Euros in a back alley in Santiago.

I feel the same way about my college degrees. And the piece of paper that says I own my house. And the piece of paper that says I own my car. I want them to be recognized as legitimate representations of the truth. I did attend college. I did buy a house. I did buy a car.

I don't care when cheating only harms the cheater. However, I do care when the cheater harms everyone.

 

[notion900]

What nationality are the 'cheaters'?

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Have you ever noticed how society only works unless we all honor pieces of paper that represent something of value or something to be the truth? Let me give an example.


I want my Compostella to have value. I want it to stand for something. An achievement that is not easily bought for 20 Euros in a back alley in Santiago.

I feel the same way about my college degrees. And the piece of paper that says I own my house. And the piece of paper that says I own my car. I want them to be recognized as legitimate representations of the truth. I did attend college. I did buy a house. I did buy a car.

I don't care when cheating only harms the cheater. However, I do care when the cheater harms everyone.

@RobertS26 you make a very valid point here. For years I worked in education and although cheating in exams by smuggling in notes on scraps of paper was usually easy to spot, by the end of my career far too much of my and my colleagues' time was taken up with having to look out for plagiarism in essays, and then having to provide the evidence for official action to be taken when the cheater was found out. So we moved from a relationship of mutual trust in the teaching room to one of suspicion and game-playing. Being against cheating is, of course a moral matter, and each person may set their moral compass in different ways, that I admit. But cheating has another dimension. A not too close friend bragged to me that he had written a final year coursework assignment for his girlfriend, (even worse) for which he was paid. These things happen all the time of course , yes but there are consequences when the person cheating is going on to work in a caring or medical profession and claims access to a body of knowledge they do not have. Knowing that the person dealing with my gas supply or rewiring my home is qualified offers the reassurance of safety. I trust in their registration certificate.
No doubt this too will be dismissed as a rant, let's talks about boots and routes instead. We can be wonderfully laissez-faire, even sneer at those who raise such issues as a matter of concern to them, and this can act as a form of silencing, signalling to others not to risk similar treatment. And yes, @dougfitz, the subject of the OP is undoubtedly a matter for the cathedral authorities to act upon if they are so minded and remedying the commercially driven falsification of credencials is not something we, as pilgrims can do much about, but it is also the right of any forum member to post comments (conforming to Forum Rules) on any Camino-related subject without fearing snarky replies.

 

[SYates]

What nationality are the 'cheaters'?

I don't understand why that should matter! Also, by assigning a nationality to 'cheaters', don't we just increase the risk of prejudice towards that nationality? Buen Camino, SY

 

[t2andreo]

Kathar1na: (beautiful name by the way, sans the "1")

Your comments are correct, if the Camino de Santiago was a purely secular, tourist undertaking, like a hike in the park, albeit long. Please allow me to expound...get comfortable folks...

To begin, please read the history of the Way of St. James. Wikipedia is a great place to start, at least in this instance. Follow some of the included references at the bottom of the article to learn more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camino_de_Santiago

The Camino de Santiago is first and foremost a Christian (pre-reformation) pilgrimage to a holy site. Depending on who you quote, it is presently the third or fourth most popular pilgrimage site in all the Christian world.

Christians have been making pilgrimage to the remains of the Apostle Saint James the Greater (one of the original 12 Apostles) located in a silver casket under the great altar in the Cathedral since around 850 AD. While popularity waned due to external influences, over the centuries, it increased in the late 20th century as writers and reporters started reporting on their experiences.

In 1987 UNESCO (a United Nations organization) named the Camino de Santiago a world heritage site. That designation broadened the curiosity of the world, writ large, about the Camino. This also heightened the interest of writers and tourists from around the world.

Most people continue to do a Camino for a spiritual or religious reason. Though a cradle-Catholic, who attended Catholic schools until high school, I was totally unaware of the Camino de Santiago, or its vital importance to world history, or to the development and preservation of Western Civilization as we know it, until my 59th year. I spent my 60th birthday at the noon Pilgrim Mass at the Cathedral having walked the 775 km "spine" of the classic Camino routes, from St. Jean Pied de Port in France. It was, and remains a life changing and life asserting accomplishment for me. My four subsequent Caminos have only served to punctuate that first achievement.

The UNESCO designation, as well as Spain's adoption of the Camino de Santiago as part of its essential patrimony, or cultural heritage, caused interest to increase further.

Back in the Middle Ages, judges all over Europe would sentence people to serious punishment for some crime, OR they could walk the Camino for penitence. Hang or walk... Other folks walked the Camino to fulfill a vow. As now, there were many reasons to make this arduous and often one-way journey.

As a result, the Church began to issue written documents written in Latin, called Compostelas, to document the arrival of the pilgrim at Santiago. The first Compostelas would have been written parchment or linen. The pilgrim, under sentence or other court order, would have to return to their home, usually on foot, to produce the Compostela to avoid the harsher sentence imposed. Remember, this was at a time when very few people could read or write in any language. So, monks and priests wrote out Compostelas for pilgrims to take to show to their priest or official at home who could read Latin.

Over time, the Compostela was less proof of doing something to avoid a death sentence or something as draconian, and more a valuable record of accomplishing something that was considered awesome for the day. Back in the day, this accomplishment might be the literal high-point of a person's entire life.

Today, the Pilgrim Office at Santiago continues to issue the exact same language Compostela, with your name in Latin if a Latin variant exists. This documentation service is FREE, provided the arriving pilgrim follows the simple rules set forth by the Cathedral / Church. And we come full circle in our rationale for caring...

Also, Pilgrims were and still are frequently buried with their scallop shell around their neck. You can still walk through ancient graveyards across Western Europe and see gravestones with scallop shells engraved in them to indicate that the person resting here was a pilgrim to Santiago. It meant something, at a time when people rarely strayed far from their birthplace over their entire lives. Many of these people walked well over 1,500 kilometers to get to Santiago. THEN they had to walk back. Untold thousands are buried along the routes in anonymous graves.

At Santiago, the hedge maze to the left of Igrexia de San Frutuoso, at the bottom of the ramp from Plaza Obradoiro, is the old Pilgrim Graveyard. It is the final resting place for pilgrims who died at Santiago after arrival. Ill pilgrims were housed in what is now the Hotel Parador.

When they died, they were placed in a cart and rolled down the ramp to San Frutuoso for a final Mass before a Christian burial in the field adjacent to the church. The hedges came much, much later. But, I consider that is still hallowed ground, sanctified by the suffering and sacrifices of the many thousands laid to rest, many anonymously, in that plot of soil.

I suspect that, over time, we have come to take the collective suffering and sacrifice by untold millions of pilgrims for granted. Personally, I try not to forget, and I offer a prayer of thanks whenever I pass the old graveyard when I am at Santiago.

At present, many pilgrims do a Camino for sport, tourism, as an athletic challenge, to study Spanish culture, history, architecture, and social patterns. There are many other reasons I am sure. All these reasons are valid. However, IMHO, the original purpose of the existence of most all the Camino routes continues to be the essence of what started it all, well over one-thousand years ago.

The Catholic Church (regardless of your personal belief) factually predates the establishment of a unified Spain by hundreds of years. As a consequence of this preeminence, they attained and retain some significant stature across Spanish culture. Today, Spain and Portugal remain two of the "most Catholic" countries in all of what was formerly a totally Catholic Europe. The Church still maintains a treasured place among most Spanish and Portuguese people. By respecting the rules, we respect this patrimony and heritage.

While secular civil authorities may disagree and resist some of what the Church determines is proper, it nonetheless is within its rights to determine under what conditions and circumstances it, via the Pilgrim Office and staff (all part of the Cathedral hierarchy), will do to commemorate or record the accomplishments of the hundreds of thousands of pilgrims from around the world who make this journey annual.

All pilgrims are welcome. But all are expected to behave like good quests when visiting in a foreign country (Spain is, except to Spaniards). We are all expected to follow all the laws, rules, regulations, and local standards for good behavior. By extension, this includes complying with the rules set forth by the Cathedral / Church if you desire their documentation. The Cathedral / Church may not own the actual Camino routes, but they do "own" the documentation process.

If (and I say this with respect for differences among all peoples) you or anyone else do not care about sellos, credentials, Compostelas, the pilgrim arrival rituals, etc., then go in peace and enjoy your holiday adventure. But, please do not denigrate it for the majority of us who "get it." Also, please do not add to the congestion to obtain a Compostela or Certificate of Distance if it does not matter to you. Please allow your "space" in queue to be used by someone who values it highly.

IMHO, We must remember where "we" have all come from on our Camino. To forget is to disrespect the efforts, sacrifices and sufferings of all those who came before us.

Buen Camino...y Vaya con Dios

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I suppose it relates to the fact (or myth?) that the Compostela serves as a document that can be added to one's CV.

I also fail to see that the "real world" value of the contemporary Compostela is anything more than a souvenir - very similar to the medals or certificates that you get when you finish a half marathon or marathon as a hobby runner.

Myth! Can you imagine the number of yound Spaniards one would see on the road if that was true? And has anyone ever spoke to one such youth on the Camino that was doing this for their CV and not for a week of cycling fun with friends?

As for the value of the Compostela, yes, I can see people bragging to their friends, colleagues, dates, about having walked this route. Just like they can brag about running the London or NY martathon, or an Ironman. Talk about "street cred", and not just as a jock but as a cultured and spiritual being.

If it didn't have "value", I doubt we would see the masses of the last 100km, let alone the masses jumping in and out of taxis on that stretch. Otherwise a simple picture of the person standing on the Obradoiro plaza with the scaffolding in the background would also be a good souvenir.

 

[Tincatinker]

Thanks Tom. I knew it wasn't just another party but, surrounded by so many who think it is, that knowledge can be hard to hang on to.

In Sobrada dos Monxes I sat down and wept - "aren't they supposed to give you a free thing or something when they're monks like? I had to give them €6."

 

[alhartman]

Maybe we need to add Luther's 95 Thesis to our historical argument. I am of the understand that the Compostela was part of the plenary indulgence system as a (paid) forgiveness of sins. And Luther argued that true repentance came from the inner self and not from mere sacraments and indulgences. As a 15th century professor of morality, he thought these indulgences discouraged Christians from taking the more difficult inner spiritual path rather than the easy 'purchase an indulgence' route. And at the time, there were people who would walk the Camino for pay on behalf of someone else.

I think the Cathedral still offers indulgences' but besides the Compostela, it requires confession and some act of good works.

This was from my research before my first Camino--and led the cynical part of me to say that, like medieval times, I was walking the Camino for pay (sell Compostela on eBay).

So, 'fraud' has been with us on the Camino for centuries. And none of this takes away from my Camino experiences and the attached spiritual growth. Or the bonding with fellow pilgrims (modern day Canterbury Tales??)

***************************************
And, note t2andreo is completely right on queuing. I worked last in Information Technology and the same math explains huge network packet storms which create a vicious cycle, to the tipping point, and a network shutdown. That is how the Distributed Denial of Service attacks so favored by hackers and cyberwarriors works.
But I would argue that the Camino Compostela line traffic, with or without the fraudulent Credentials is nearly there already. BTW, same math creates the 'bed race'.

 

[t2andreo]

Katerina:

While I may disagree on some of your points, I do value your entire post. Thank you for taking the time.

I will not enter into a debate over the end of the "cult of relics" as you put it, beyond saying that, this importance and veneration continues among Roman Catholics, as well as the Eastern Orthodox sects of Christianity. So, veneration of the relics of St. James remains central to the reason many pilgrims still make a pilgrimage to any holy site. I respect followers of the various Protestant cults and value their contributions to all things Camino related, including this forum.

As regards history, the Moors invaded and occupied most of the Iberian peninsula in 711. However they were not able to establish major, permanent settlements much north if a line that approximates the present and historical route of the Camino Frances. Ulitimately, it was not until over 700 years later that the Moors were finally driven from continental Europe by Christian forces in 1492. Not long thereafter, a unified Spain emerged.

Again, it depends who you quote, but among the reasons the Moors could not penetrate farther north into continental Europe was the sheer ferociousness and stubborn determination of the local Celtic and Basque residents who fought back viciously against external domination. If you saw the film "Lionheart" some years back, you get an approximation of Celtic resistance, spirit and sheer determination.

These efforts kept the Camino Frances route open to pilgrims during the occupation. The Knights Templar were tasked by the Pope to protect pilgrims to Santiago. This explains their significant presence along this Camino.

Charles Martel and Charlemagne's military actions aside, it was the willingness of the indigenous folks to "hold the line" at a critical time that: (1) likely prevented the Moors from advancing further northward; and (2) provided critical time for the local kings and the Pope to organize a counter offensive to drive the Moors from Christian Europe.

But, I will not debate the historical facts. They are what they are.

Lastly, I believe Pilgrim Office statistics consistently reflect that the majority of pilgrims registering at the Pilgrim Office state that they did their Camino for religious or spiritual reasons. Again, a numerical fact.

I hope this contributes to the dialogue.

 

[alhartman]

I am sure the OP has had the original question well answered, and we have morphed the thread (more than) a bit. I am in awe of both katar1na and t2andreo historical knowledge.
And would add that my Caminos sparked a huge interest in European secular and religious history. My history study in middle and high school was so much more limited. Thanking the Camino for broadening my horizons.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Lastly, I believe Pilgrim Office statistics consistently reflect that the majority of pilgrims registering at the Pilgrim Office state that they did their Camino for religious or spiritual reasons. Again, a numerical fact.

I hope this contributes to the dialogue.

I am always a bit skeptical as to why the Cathedral puts "religious" & "spiritual" in the same category. Part of me can't help think it's to boost its importance as a pilgrimage because what is spirituality?

Isn't just about everyone and their cat into "spirituality"? I hear it's something to out into one's online dating profile. Vs the number of people you see walking as vow, going to evening blessings for more that just to witness it?

@t2andreo , when you are invited to give your 2cents about what works and what doesn't work, perhaps you could also include having "religious" and "spiritual" split as the motivation for a Camino.

 

[Purky]

I am always a bit skeptical as to why the Cathedral puts "religious" & "spiritual" in the same category. Part of me can't help think it's to boost its importance as a pilgrimage because what is spirituality?

Isn't just about everyone and their cat into "spirituality"? I hear it's something to out into one's online dating profile. Vs the number of people you see walking as vow, going to evening blessings for more that just to witness it?

@t2andreo , when you are invited to give your 2cents about what works and what doesn't work, perhaps you could also include having "religious" and "spiritual" split as the motivation for a Camino.

I personally think that Tracie said it well in this thread: "Religion is believing in another persons experience, spirituality is believing in your own experience." But because it might provoke some polarization (and I like bridges better than walls), I tend to choose for a definition that may include both religious persons and the more spiritually inclined.

For me it has to do with those scarce (but very sought after) moments when I have a profound sense of being alive and connected to everything. That has happened to me enough times to know it has a defining quality, and being an atheist, I went with spirituality.

Or you could state that spirituality is the quality of being concerned with the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things. Either way, I don't perceive it as being in any way less (or more) than being religious. However often it comes up in dating profiles.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Not saying that in real life religion teumps spirituality and vice versa, jist that bundling these two motivationswhen declaring at the Pilgrim Office it may give the impression that the religious fervour is greater than it really is.

 

[dougfitz]

And yes, @dougfitz, the subject of the OP is undoubtedly a matter for the cathedral authorities to act upon if they are so minded and remedying the commercially driven falsification of credencials is not something we, as pilgrims can do much about, but it is also the right of any forum member to post comments (conforming to Forum Rules) on any Camino-related subject without fearing snarky replies.

Really, @SEB, the OP sought information about a behaviour, only one explanation for which was that it might be associated with some form of 'cheating'. It only took three or so posts before we stopped addressing the issue raised by the OP and the thread was wonderfully quickly transformed into a variation of the 'true pilgrim' discussions that occupy us from time to time.

As for your concern about the rights of forum members, I see no particular problem with disagreeing with points of view suggested by other members, and arguing the case from a different perspective, as I have done here. Perhaps my comments on this matter were a little indirect, and only hinted that I felt some of the proposals were fundamentally flawed. I will try to be more direct in future.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

I learnt the word "historicity" - something that is not historically correct but it fits people's ideas of what things were like in the past or what happened in the past.

On the same lines @Kathar1na, if you haven't already come across the book you might find Hobsbawm's The Invention of Tradition of interest.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Really, @SEB, the OP sought information about a behaviour, only one explanation for which was that it might be associated with some form of 'cheating'. It only took three or so posts before we stopped addressing the issue raised by the OP and the thread was wonderfully quickly transformed into a variation of the 'true pilgrim' discussions that occupy us from time to time.

As for your concern about the rights of forum members, I see no particular problem with disagreeing with points of view suggested by other members, and arguing the case from a different perspective, as I have done here. Perhaps my comments on this matter were a little indirect, and only hinted that I felt some of the proposals were fundamentally flawed. I will try to be more direct in future.

Apologies @dougfitz. I merged two of my comments which appeared to criticise your contribution. While you may sometimes be a bit vigorous in your responses, I have never known you to sneer, and respect your generally helpful and informed contributions.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Just wanted to add that the phrase "(medieval) cult of relics", just like the phrase "(medieval) cult of Saint James" are quite established phrases to describe phenomena during the Middle Ages that do not exist in contemporary times.

Kathar1na, what do you mean by the cult of relics being a phenomena that does not exist in contemporary times?

 

[t2andreo]

I think it is time for me to bow out. You kids play nice now y'heah?

 

[t2andreo]

I am always a bit skeptical as to why the Cathedral puts "religious" & "spiritual" in the same category. Part of me can't help think it's to boost its importance as a pilgrimage because what is spirituality?

Isn't just about everyone and their cat into "spirituality"? I hear it's something to out into one's online dating profile. Vs the number of people you see walking as vow, going to evening blessings for more that just to witness it?

@t2andreo , when you are invited to give your 2cents about what works and what doesn't work, perhaps you could also include having "religious" and "spiritual" split as the motivation for a Camino.

I agree with your sentiments and will pose the question next month, but I, or certainly Johnnie Walker KNOWS the answer. I recall being told that this was an effort to include all those pilgrims who, when being confused by the choice quipped:

"1. I was born a Catholic / Christian, but although I no longer actively participate if, I consider myself a deeply spiritual person.

2. I am not a Christian but I am a spiritual person.

3. My religious affiliation is a private matter, but I do consider myself a deeply spiritual person."

Personally, I consider that this falls under the ambit of St. Pope John Paul II's comment to the Dali Lama, back in the 1990s. The Dali Lama, spiritual head of all Buddhists, asked if it was true that the Church taught that only Catholics could go to Heaven.

His Holiness was reported to have said: "Who am I to know. There are many paths up the same mountain..." I thought this was a very wise, Zen like, and theologically sound statement.

While the Church DID teach this doctrine when I was growing up...like 50 years ago, I suspect that, in an effort at ecumenism, the Church has softened its approach. I applaud this reasoning.

Hence, it makes both theological and practical sense to combine the two closely related categories on the pilgrim reception form and for statistical purposes. This said, I defer to Johnnie Walker if he chooses to correct me... I always do.

I hope this helps.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I sense that any reply (about societal changes over centuries) may be interpreted as an attack on contemporary beliefs and I definitely have zero interest in going there
.

Not at all, just that I still see the practice existing, and wonder why you say it no longer exists. Ok, perhaps not in as great numbers, but still being practiced.

 

[hel&scott]

If it didn't have "value", I doubt we would see the masses of the last 100km, let alone the masses jumping in and out of taxis on that stretch. Otherwise a simple picture of the person standing on the Obradoiro plaza with the scaffolding in the background would also be a good souvenir.

This is why I don't get a compostela, it's not a souvenir and it shouldn't be devalued for for those who believe in it. The association offers a non religious completion certificate if you need a paper to prove you finished, but for me the value of the Camino is in the experience.

 

[Camino Carp]

For me, the compostela was not especially important -- I value my credencial much more -- but I went to the office in Santiago because I wanted my name added to the long, long list of pilgrims who have walked the Camino.

 

[hel&scott]

For me, the compostela was not especially important -- I value my credencial much more -- but I went to the office in Santiago because I wanted my name added to the long, long list of pilgrims who have walked the Camino.

Yes, good to keep the stats up. I understand that they read out the names of completing pilgrims in the cathedral too, I had someone come up to me in Santiago and tell me that the old boy reading our the list had stopped at mine and had several goes at it, before another priest looked over and shouted out "Hel", not sure if it was the name or the Spainish silent H that was giving him problems.

 

[Kanga]

They used to read out the names, but I think there are now too many and for many years they have condensed the information and now only read out the nationality or group and places from which they have walked (e.g. 5 Australians by foot from SJPDP, 50 Spaniards from Leon, a group from Santa Maria school in Cadiz, etc).

 

[Anemone del Camino]

They used to read out the names, but I think there are now too many and for many years they have condensed the information ...

I wondered about that when I read the posts above. Things are long enough as it is, I cannot imagine having to sit through the names of hundreds or even thousands.