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'New Age' bores on the Camino

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kerrysean

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Did anyone else find like me, that whilst the camino was a wonderful and hugely rewarding spiritual experience, that it was marred at times by having to listen to an emerging 'new age' orthodoxy on the camino...Was anyone else bored rigid by people who felt it their obligation to bang on about their 'past lives', stone placing, ley lines, shamanism,seeing symbolism in anything at all we came across, 'the nature', 'the universe', and a plethora of esoteric quasi-religious beliefs that one was obliged to indulge whilst on the Camino.
I was also surprised by the amount of these tedious twerps who seemed to think that you were in some way mentally deficient when you expressed no interest in going out to Finisterre and burning your clothes and watching the sunset. The fact that for me, the pilgrimage ended in Santiago was met with too many knowing smiles, of the sort that suggested that " ah so you are not one of the truly enlightened like me" type, this alongside being a non-vegetarian, was proof positive of your defectiveness. I dont like zealotry of any sort, and I found some of the many new age zealots on the Camino a pain in the butt to be quite honest, was I alone in this reaction? 8)
 
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evanlow

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I have not met anyone that extreme, just a couple of purist type who frowns on people taking any mode of transport that is not on foot. Strange, I don't see them wearing a frock, leather sandals, a small pouch with some cured meat and stale bread like the original pilgrims...
 

Rebekah Scott

Camino Busybody
Past OR future Camino
Many, various, and continuing.
yeah, I´m sure there are plenty of New Age bores on the camino.
Lots of Old Age bores, too, moaning about how their bones ache and how they should´ve done the camino 20 years ago (or how much easier it was when they did it back in 1982...)

New Age, Catholic, Protestant, biker, hiker, horseback bores, nationalists, patriotic, political, racial, sexist, regional, ethnic, and economic bores... they´re all out there, and they´re all dying to enlighten everyone around them.

A bore is a bore is a bore, whatever his favorite discovery.
Bores give you choices, however. You can:

Tolerate them, and maybe even learn something from them;
Tell them they´re boring you to death and you´re changing the subject now;
Move faster and leave him behind, or
Move slower and let them get ahead.

I find one of the best ways to be left alone when walking is to carry a small Rosary visible in one hand. The Christian and other believers will respect your time of private prayer. The other "True Believers" will assume you´re a religious nut and steer clear of you!

Reb.
 
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While I ran into some of the esoteric bores as described above, I also ran into other varieties. Rebekah's prescription for dealing with them is worthy of study.
 

Annette

Member
Well to begin with a lot of thos pilgrims walking the Camino are NOT walking to Finistere... Some don't want, some don't have time, some take the bus... and some do... and if you are only one of the truly enlightened ones when you do the Finistere part... we are many who have a problem... (well I can count my self lucky to be enlightened at least twice of of 4 times...

I have met many different pilgrims... with different religions, with different "gifts", with different opinions on whats in the way for you... but none of them have "banged" it on me... none of them have forced me to listen, or forced me to take part in any of it...

I find most keep their beliefs to them self... but share if asked...

You do have the option to say no thank you. And if walking to Santiago was the end of the Camino for you... well then you share this with many other pilgrims... enlightened or not!
 
I think we should follow Reb's advice of carrying a small rosary....question is, how much do those weigh? :shock:

Actually, there are "bores" of every persuasion & guess what, the people you think are bores might feel the same about you. :idea:

It won't hurt you to be gracious & listen & talk to them, if you have the time because as Bill Cosby warns, "If you're not careful, you just might learn something." The Desiderata has a similar statement. If you want to extricate yourself from them, don't do it in a way in which you intend to make them feel bad. People will forget what you say & maybe what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel. Personally, I feel there's enough negativity in the world so I don't need to go around creating more. As Jesus taught, cast your bread upon the water, it shall return to you one hundred-fold.

Kelly
 

kerrysean

New Member
Many thanks for the comments. I think that the Rosary idea is a cracker,thanks Rebekah, and will adopt it next time that I am in that position. As regards the possibility that the bores might have found me a bore too, that is I agree entirely possible, but to be fair when there was a dialogue it was never boring, well for me anyway. What I am specifically referring to are the number of people who are talking at length about themselves and their beliefs without the possibility of a dialogue, on a number of occasions over sometimes two hours or more I can recollect my contributions being consigned to 'yes', 'really', and 'uh huh'. I envy the tolerant and saintlike forbearance of some of the other contributors and will aspire to achieve their stoical approach.
I think that having a sense of humour and fun whilst on the Camino is pretty good value, and the common factor that these bores shared was that they all took themselves, 'their' camino, and their whole belief system thing far too seriously. I agree that bores of all varieties do exist, but I was particularly struck by the preponderance of bores who wanted to indoctrinate me into their, in my opinion, half baked mish mash of a variety of weird and esoteric beliefs...I think that Shirley Maclaine 's views were echoed quite a few times, and frankly there's nothing quite as mind numbingly tedious as listening to or reading about a string of 'past lives'... :)
 
In all fairness to Shirley MacLaine ( I too found her book to be dreck, & I believe in reincarnation), what I've noticed most on the Camino is how intense my dreams are, when I can remember them. Others have noted this too. So I think that was the reason her dreams got so wild & far-fetched. :)

Kelly
 
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evanlow

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Not trying to rain anyone's parade, but even I dreamt a lot during the camino. That's when I realize that it's been a long time since I had 8 hours of sleep at one go...
 

MermaidLilli

Active Member
What resonates here to me is the judgment and criticism of these "New Age" people. If that is their religion then it is up to us to tolerate them along with everyone else's religions. If you find anyone's conversations a bore, like already said, move on. But try and not judge their beliefs. I personally find anyone's religion or spiritual beliefs interesting and will allow myself to learn from them.
"The truth is one, the paths are many", as said by Satchidananda.
LOVE is mine.
 

skilsaw

Veteran Member
yesterday I posted a reply to this topic.
today it is not there.

the thought police are watching.
 

Bridget and Peter

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WolverineDG said:
I think we should follow Reb's advice of carrying a small rosary....question is, how much do those weigh? :shock:

I am going to make one from super-thin nylon thread and space age teflinphanium beads which weighs under 14.375 nano mili mini grams and tell everyone exactly how I did it until they speed up or slow down to get rid of me.

I think Margery Kempe, medieval english woman who had visions from God and sobbed and wailed from the intensity of them all, and whose companions on her pilgrimage used to leave before she woke to get away from her, must have been an early example of the Camino Bore. I'm sure its not just the new agers.

Camino Bore - any relation to the Severn Bore?
 
A

Anonymous

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Yes, KerrySean - I agree with you completely ... and the actual point you make -
 
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KiwiNomad06

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Can everyone please remember that this forum is intended for all those interested in the Camino, whatever their beliefs. Some of the terms used in this discussion have been rather inflammatory. Could we show respect please, whether we agree or disagree with people's ideas/beliefs.
Margaret
 

ivar

Administrator
Staff member
skilsaw said:
yesterday I posted a reply to this topic.
today it is not there.

the thought police are watching.
This was not my intention. This thread was posted twice (duplicate) so i deleted the one with no comments. You may have been writing your comment when i deleted it. Anyway, please share your thoughts.

Greetings from "almost" Asturias,
ivar
 

sillydoll

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St Francis was considered one of the first 'New Age' thinkers when he composed a song called the Laudes Creaturarum. A modern rendition was used in the musical biography of Saint Francis "Brother Sun, Sister Moon."

Be praised, my Lord, through all your creatures,
especially through my lord Brother Sun,
who brings the day; and you give light through him.
And he is beautiful and radiant in all his splendor!
Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.

Be praised, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars;
in the heavens you have made them bright, precious and beautiful.
Be praised, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,
and clouds and storms, and all the weather,
through which you give your creatures sustenance.

Be praised, My Lord, through Sister Water;
she is very useful, and humble, and precious, and pure.
Be praised, my Lord, through Brother Fire,
through whom you brighten the night.
He is beautiful and cheerful, and powerful and strong.

Be praised, my Lord, through our sister Mother Earth,
who feeds us and rules us,
and produces various fruits with colored flowers and herbs.
 
D

Deleted member 3000

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Quantum mechanics/quantum gravity pretty much "proves" the interrelationship between everything. The complex physics is pretty simple in an Occam's Razor sort of way, but allows the possibility of an infinite number of future possibilities. The New Age philosophies make things up when selecting their predictions, and that can be off-putting to others who see a different future. Quite frankly, no one is "right" until time plays out, so staying relaxed about someone else's adamantly held opinion is the only rational response. It can be quite fascinating to analyze others' thought processes through listening, so that it what I try to do -- listen. Yes, it has been tedious at times, but there is an outside chance that my closed mind actually learned something (many friends and acquaintances might doubt that assertion).

And use silicone ointment to prevent blisters. It REALLY works.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
St Francis was considered one of the first 'New Age' thinkers when he wrote...

Sil, really ... of course he wasn't - he was a Roman Catholic Christian perfectly in tune with normative Christianity of the time ... he wrote his song as a song of praise to God -
New Age indeed ...

apart from anything else, he never wrote those words in that Reader's Digest form.
Those aren't the words translated from the Umbrian dialect .. these are - and you will see that it is pure Roman Catholic Christianity ...

Most high, all powerful, all good Lord!
All praise is yours, all glory, all honor, and all blessing.

To you, alone, Most High, do they belong.
No mortal lips are worthy to pronounce your name.

Be praised, my Lord, through all your creatures,
especially through my lord Brother Sun,
who brings the day; and you give light through him.
And he is beautiful and radiant in all his splendor!
Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.

Be praised, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars;
in the heavens you have made them bright, precious and beautiful.

Be praised, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,
and clouds and storms, and all the weather,
through which you give your creatures sustenance.

Be praised, My Lord, through Sister Water;
she is very useful, and humble, and precious, and pure.

Be praised, my Lord, through Brother Fire,
through whom you brighten the night.
He is beautiful and cheerful, and powerful and strong.

Be praised, my Lord, through our sister Mother Earth,
who feeds us and rules us,
and produces various fruits with colored flowers and herbs.

Be praised, my Lord, through those who forgive for love of you;
through those who endure sickness and trial.

Happy those who endure in peace,
for by you, Most High, they will be crowned.

Be praised, my Lord, through our Sister Bodily Death,
from whose embrace no living person can escape.
Woe to those who die in mortal sin!
Happy those she finds doing your most holy will.
The second death can do no harm to them.

Praise and bless my Lord, and give thanks,
and serve him with great humility.


(He added 'sister death' just before he died)

this is what happens when people make things up in their heads and don't check what is true :|
just like those people KerrySean has been writing about ......... don't you think? :wink:
 
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johnBCCanada

Active Member
Maybe the point of the thread is less the belief "system" than the way that some people go on and on when about something important to them when they could see, if they looked, that the person they are talking to isn't interested in what they are talking about. A believer in new age beliefs (not completely sure that means) can do this as can christians and anyone else who lectures rather than converses.

Such people can be encountered on the Camino and most other places as well.

John
 

brightgirl

New Member
Why should the Camino be any different to life i general? There are bores everywhere - maybe I am one also??!! :D
I carried a small rosary - one decade only, can get them any place along the Camino, very light!!
BG
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Bores? Get me onto theology and you can use me as a room divider at your parties! :shock:
 
It costs nothing to be civil to the people you might meet along the camino. The philosophy of treating others as you would wish to be treated is as valid on a dusty camino trail as it is anywhere else.
I once worked with people who had an encyclopaedic knowledge of horse racing. They seemed to knew everything about it except how to pick winners. For them I might have made an exception...
 

KiwiNomad06

Veteran Member
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Le Puy-Santiago(2008) Cluny-Conques+prt CF(2012)
Actually, to be honest, I think I have become a Camino Bore since I returned home :D

Someone only has to show a glimmer of interest, and I am off....... with my photos out, a map out.....a guidebook out....... to show/tell them more!

It is good that friends of mine who recently walked the Camino are due back in the country very soon. 8) We will be able to bore each other together in peace!!! 8)
Margaret
 
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Hermanita

Active Member
KiwiNomad06 said:
Actually, to be honest, I think I have become a Camino Bore since I returned home :D

Someone only has to show a glimmer of interest, and I am off....... with my photos out, a map out.....a guidebook out....... to show/tell them more!

It is good that friends of mine who recently walked the Camino are due back in the country very soon. 8) We will be able to bore each other together in peace!!! 8)
Margaret

It is like an addiction, isn't it?? And I haven't even walked yet. HA!
 

kerrysean

New Member
MermaidLilli said:
What resonates here to me is the judgment and criticism of these "New Age" people. If that is their religion then it is up to us to tolerate them along with everyone else's religions. If you find anyone's conversations a bore, like already said, move on. But try and not judge their beliefs. I personally find anyone's religion or spiritual beliefs interesting and will allow myself to learn from them.
"The truth is one, the paths are many", as said by Satchidananda.
LOVE is mine.

Excuse me, since when was it in any way impermissable to either 'judge' or 'criticise'...I am sorry but we are given a rational mind and we are permitted to use it...In my opinion any prescription on criticism is another aspect of these belief systems, ie 'I believe in it so you can not subject it to any criticism' ...that is frankly nonsense. Many of the views expressed by people who subscribe to the weird mish mash of beliefs termed 'new age' are worthy of criticism, being very often a confused and diffuse mixture that permits belief in almost anything that the 'believer' wishes, they are the ultimate individualist belief systems, ideally suited to the consumer society.
 

kerrysean

New Member
One other point I wished to make, is that some new age believers are often guilty of paying scant regard to the Christian and Catholic nature of the Camino. Speak to many of the Spanish volunteers who man the churches about how so many of these folk, seem incapable of observing even a modicum of decorum in the churches...The 3 german 'new agers' who I witnessed wheeling their bicycles into the church in O'Cebreiro for example...the many observations of the volunteers that people who seem to be capable of adopting awed reverence to a pile of stones, walk about talking and laughing in churches over 800 years old...no genuflections, no prayer. The pain that was caused to one volunteer by the regular laughter directed at one particularly 'doll like' but very old and highly revered depiction of the Virgin Mary by ignorant 'peregrino's' . I was with a spanish speaker for the last 200 km and speaking to some of the church volunteers really enlightened me about the mixed feelings that many of the local people in these rural communities have about the so called 'peregrinos', many of whom believe they are beloved by one and all. Believe me THAT is FAR from the truth in all cases...
 

MichaelB10398

Veteran Member
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2022
Faith and Reason are eternal companions. Where one walks the other must follow or the result is the by-product of man's over-active imagination or a stunted vision where man ceases to seek knowledge because they think man has already thought of all things.

I would agree that we owe respect to each pelerin; however, their beliefs are a different matter. May we each be able to treat others in such as way that we are a source of peace on the Camino as well as in life.

As an aside to Kerry, I doubt few things could be as annoying as to have to pass the afternoon with a Shirley McClain want-to-be babbling on about past lives, their own enlightenment, and the deficiencies of Christianity. As has already been said, that is either a time for a break to let them move on or a time to begin jogging for a mile or so...anything to just get away to some peace and quiet. Cheers,

Michael
 

Telluridewalker

Active Member
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Wow. Didn't this thread start out about "tedious twerps" and "bores?"

Quod erat demonstrandum.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
There is more to this of course and I am glad that KerrySean has broached this subject again.
Yes, this forum is for finding out and for sharing -

- as the tag says "Where past pilgrims share and future pilgrims learn" so it shouldn't really be all sugar-coated sweetness and light - there are very difficult aspects to the pilgrimage - it wouldn't be a pilgrimage without them - so the 'warts and all' threads I find are very healthy.

The more to it is that this is happening across the 1st world ... and it is that very unwillingness to actually learn anything and that veiled contempt and dismissal of Christianity, that is worrying .. and once we lose the freedom to evaluate, criticise and judge then we are at the end of civilisation - all beliefs are not equal, all humans are not equal (though all should have equal opportunity) ...
... but here is a thought or two .. at the core New Age is about self, the 'I'. Christianity is about others, acting in the world to help and redeem (not in a meek and mild way either) .. so . .

bear with me, please - a few years ago during the Bosnian war two Scottish fish farmers, two brothers, two ordinary men, were so moved by the television news about the suffering that they started a local campaign to collect blankets to be shipped over there. They were (are) Roman Catholics and had previously been on pilgrimage to Medjugorje. They filled a vehicle, joined a convoy and took them there, to Medjugorje.
When they got home they found their parents garage filled with donations ... so they carried on, started a charity and the work spread. In Malawi a few short years later, a country full of AIDS orphans, they were with a woman dying of AIDS, with her six children around her. They asked one of her boys what he wanted - he said "to have enough to eat and to go to school one day".
So they started a charity named after the blessed Mary, Mary's Meals, raising funds and organising the distribution of meals to children in schools - today that Christian, Catholic, organisation gives away, free, to the poorest children in our world 360,000 meals a day. 360,000 a day.

There are countless stories like that - all Christian and the Roman Catholics are at the front and always have been.. I may be a heretic in some areas and a terrible old grump and smug myself at inappropriate times, but that is my religion and I am glad that I am a part of it. Now if anyone can come back on here with a New Ager tale of helping others I would be glad to hear it.

And that is the difference between the Christians and the "spiritual, not religious" McClainites and New Agers.
So, sorry to take so long, and thank you for being patient, but - my point is this -

- this is, and has been for over a thousand years, a Roman Catholic pilgrimage to the tomb of St. James in Santiago. A pilgrimage upon which all are welcome but as any good hosts, the church doesn't expect the guests to treat them with contempt .....

Now, that is fair isn't it? :| What do you think?

and if anyone wishes to help Mary's Meals please visit http://www.marysmeals.org
thank you.
 

Telluridewalker

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
Camino Frances (1988)
Personally, I'd be cautious about claiming some sort of Christian "ownership" of the Camino- next thing you know, the Pagans will want their Winter Solstice (Xmas) and Spring Equinox (Easter) holidays back. :)
 

ajp

Member
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I found Kerry's description of the "new age" bores hilarious, one can run into those types everywhere, not just on the Camino. Her descriptions were bang on. Typically, the preoccupation with self, a narcisstic obsession with "me" and "my life experience" is diagnostic of this species.

Best to avoid and/or ignore.

AJP
Victoria
 

MichaelB10398

Veteran Member
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2022
This is not an appropriate conversation. This forum is not the place to decide which religion, which set of beliefs, etc. are better than another. Nor is it the place to promote the merits of one group over another. That should stop immediately; focus on the Camino and how we as pelerins follow the Chemin and relate to it and others. Brother Dave, I know you mean well, but please stop that type of conversation.

On the other hand, there is no need to obfuscate historical fact. This pilgrimage that has been occurring for the last 1,000 years was started and continued because of the pilgrims that were Catholic. To say otherwise is to simply be putting our heads in the sand.

The Camino is for all because in each pilgrim can be found the Master of St. James, regardless of religion, philosophy, or thought.

His Peace always,

Michael
 

sillydoll

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Its doors are open to the sick and well
to Catholics as well as to pagans,
Jews, Heretics, beggars and the indigent,
and it embraces all like brothers.

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ksam

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Rebekah Scott said:
I find one of the best ways to be left alone when walking is to carry a small Rosary visible in one hand. The Christian and other believers will respect your time of private prayer. The other "True Believers" will assume you´re a religious nut and steer clear of you!

Reb.
LOL Rebekah...that is awesome... LOL

Another option might be...carry a small silver bell, or wear it around your neck...and cry unclean...ala lepers of old...that oughta get you some space to move on your own in!! :lol:
 

kerrysean

New Member
MichaelB10398 said:
This is not an appropriate conversation. This forum is not the place to decide which religion, which set of beliefs, etc. are better than another. Nor is it the place to promote the merits of one group over another. That should stop immediately; focus on the Camino and how we as pelerins follow the Chemin and relate to it and others. Brother Dave, I know you mean well, but please stop that type of conversation.

On the other hand, there is no need to obfuscate historical fact. This pilgrimage that has been occurring for the last 1,000 years was started and continued because of the pilgrims that were Catholic. To say otherwise is to simply be putting our heads in the sand.

The Camino is for all because in each pilgrim can be found the Master of St. James, regardless of religion, philosophy, or thought.

His Peace always,

Michael

That is simply the most amazingly fascistic statement that I have read for a long time, and is redolent of the conversations that I had with a number of 'new age' pilgrims who felt that I was 'not in the spirit of the camino' (whatever that means) when I observed that some of their brethren should perhaps recognise that the Camino is not just an individualistic 'spiritual journey' but is part of an ancient and well worn fabric of Christian tradition...I was amazed when one objected to me pointing out that the Camino route could NOT be directly 'under' the Milky Way since in comparison to the Earth the Milky Way is too vast to even register ...but no she had heard it in her 'spiritual' readings and therefore it was true...When faced with a rational objection the response was often to censor the observation, meanwhile any amount of light weight and quasi-spiritual observations were welcome. I have no objection to people believing in this half baked nonsense , but I DO object to being told that it is 'NOT PERMITTED' to even voice a mild tone of scepticism. I note with interest that the rejection of the rational and the enlightenment thinking was also a feature of fascism, I wonder if some of these people are unaware that not permitting unsupported assertions and beliefs is a form of intellectual fascism..The defensive and hurt tones of some of the posters here suggests that some people are not open to any form of rational criticism of their belief systems, perhaps because if subjected to any degree of theological analysis most of them prove to be the outpourings of charalatans and mountebanks cashing in on the spiritual vacuum which is the primary inheritance that advanced and globalised capitalism has bestowed upon the wealthy, consumerist, and above all INDIVIDUALISTIC so called 'developed' world. Thanks Bro David, your supportive comments are greatly appreciated.. 8)
 
D

Deleted member 3000

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Personally, I think it is appropriate to discuss or challenge factual assertions. The Milky Way does not lie along the Camino. American Indians are not a lost tribe of Israel. Zero degrees of longitude is arbitrarily set. Vampires do not exist. LSD does not reveal a new world.

On the other hand, it is a useful social grace to respect the faith and opinions of others. If Shirley MacLaine wants ley lines to affect her philosophy, we should be able to disagree with her factual assertion without a lot of adjectives or personal attacks (though it can be hard to resist).

In the world of ideas, if an advocate is trying to persuade someone, he should expect to have his advocacy challenged. I think laissez faire Capitalism is wonderful and should be the only legal economic system in the universe. Discuss.
 
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MichaelB10398

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Kerry, I think you might misunderstand my point or I have poorly stated it. This forum is not the place for disruptive conversation, i.e. attempting to define the true religion or the true church or anything that comes close to that quality of conversation.

I do not say that those types of conversations are not appropriate elsewhere, just not here on the this forum. Does this make sense to you? Do you think it appropriate that we take this forum with a specific purpose and turn it into a forum for arguing about doctrines that most don't even have a clue?

As far as the thought that we attempt to live this life, treating others as we would want to be treated, or seeing Christ in all people is not a new age thought or philosophy, but was something taught the one called Jesus of Nazareth.

Abiding rules is not being a fascist; respecting the parameters of this forum is not fascist.

It is interesting when certain words are used, particularly those of a emotional, power-packed nature. Unfortunately, they only really carry value when the user understands the definition. Otherwise one evolves into a parrot that at first piques one's interest, but when others learn that conversation is beyond the bird's ability and that it has only achieved memorization, one moves on. I think I will go converse with Br. David for a bit, Cheers,

Michael
 

Annette

Member
I guess the word is R.E.S.P.E.C.T. RESPECT

Respect the beliefs of others. If you are not interessted simply tell them... "I respect your belief, but I am not interessted". It is easy... and it is not hurtful...

Respect the people around you... and accept that not everybody is like you.

You will have a much easier camino/life. - Before you jugde others on their beliefs, take a good look at your self... What makes you so much better...? Why is your belief the right one?


And P.S the respect and accept is not only for the Camino.
 

nellpilgrim

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
SDC-Fisterra 08/Camino Frances SJPP to SDC 09/Nuremburg-SDC 11- ongoing
KiwiNomad06 said:
Actually, to be honest, I think I have become a Camino Bore since I returned home :D
I know that feeling but I fear I'm am more like Camino junkie if I get a sniff of interest in or experience(s) of the camino I manage the conversation to meet my needs for a fix! Not an attractive trait in a guest so maybe I have more in common with the CBs (Camino Bores) than I'd care to think!
I think KerrySean showed incredible patience listening for 'up to two hours' to these people S/he found so boring- surely it almost counts as a form of martyrdom.
Perhaps one could "offer it up" (the boredom) as I was told to do when I was a child having to put up with something I didn't like. I regarded this activity as similar to making a deposit into a sort of spiritual deposit account which one could 'draw' later if you did something spectacularly bad. It was this thought of endurance and/or tolerance as a prudent investment that enabled me to navigate through some of the more tedious sections of childhood.
Personally I would like to think that if I were boring the pants off someone they would give me some feedback to that effect. But I know that is easier said than done especially when one is trying to be a 'good pilgrim' instead of giving an airing to your 'Assertiveness in the Boardroom' skill set.
I am sorry that KerrySean met so many of these CB's but I wonder what drew them to him/her-is there some sort of magnetic attraction of camino opposites going on here?
I found the people I met on the way to be engaging, funny, generally kind and, even when none of the above, always interesting at some level (ok sometimes only for a minute or two).
What is certain is that any Camino Bore worth their salt would be so pleased, and probably not at all surprised, to find themselves the a topic of this thread. And here is a scary thought I think I have become a camino bore about Camino Bores ...the CBs have the last word as always!
 

Rebekah Scott

Camino Busybody
Past OR future Camino
Many, various, and continuing.
If you´re secure in your beliefs and/or yourself, you can tolerate questions and challenges and even boring preachers. You can retreat into that quiet place inside yourself, and continue walking and even talking with said Camino Bore for up to a day until you come to an appropriate stopping place.

Then, let the CB know you think that last albergue may be infected with bedbugs, and suggest he may not want to put his things too near yours.

No more problem.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Interesting to watch all this, like a microcosm of the world - has anyone else noticed which camp all the female pilgrims are in?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rebekah Scott said:
I find one of the best ways to be left alone when walking is to carry a small Rosary visible in one hand. The Christian and other believers will respect your time of private prayer. The other "True Believers" will assume you´re a religious nut and steer clear of you!

Yes, you are 100% spot on with this advice, Reb! When I walked my marathon from Worcester to Santiago last year, I frequently used my prayer rope. This is a rather motheaten green woollen 100-knot traditional Russian Orthodox rope with a woollen cross at the end, and I have used it regularly for twenty five years. It works exactly as you suggest: nobody bothers you!

But since you have introduced the subject of prayer... :D I shall take it as an invitation to do my 'Catholic Bores' spot and point out another advantage of this. The mantra-type prayer (e.g. the rather fussy 'Hail Mary' or the simpler 'Jesus Prayer' in the Orthodox tradition*) helps you maintain a rhythm in breathing and walking, as well as being an exercise in mental/vocal prayer. After a while, you find the vocalised or silently said prayer natural fits with a certain number of paces and a connected regularity of breathing. In my experience, it also brings about a high degree of alertness to your surroundings, while remaining mentally relaxed. So I would recommend this as part of a holistic approach to walking.

And yes, it certainly keeps the (other) bores at a distance!

Gareth

* P.S. For those unfamiliar with the Jesus Prayer, it is worth pointing out that it is traditionally associated with walking pilgrimage. Read the wonderful anonymous Russian story, The Way of a Pilgrim (trs. R.M.French) and the follow up, The Pilgrim Continues on his Way. These are books about walking as much as they are books about continual prayer and how to discover it.
 
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annakappa

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Part frances jun 07/rest frances may- jun 2008/Frances sept-oct 2009/ Sanabres Oct 2010/Frances sept-oct 2011/Aragones Sept-Oct 2012. Hospitalero Sept 2010, Amiga in Pilgrim's Office Oct 2013. Part Primitivo Oct 2013. Portugues from Porto June 2015.
For those unfamiliar with the Jesus Prayer[/quote]
Thank you so much Gareth for reminding me of this simple prayer. At first I didn't recognise the title, (because I pray in Spanish), but I had been introduced to it several years ago when I was still part of the Camino Neocatecumenal. We were also encouraged to read the book you mentioned, which comes under the title El Peregrino Ruso. I shall try and get it back from the person to whom I lent it and read it once again before we start walking in September. Anne
 

gittiharre

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
CF Austria Czech Le Puy Geneva RLS V. Jacobi V. Regia V. Baltica/Scandinavica Porto Muxia
Well yes, life is a bore for some, but being affected by bores is a bore in itself, tolerance, openness and an ability to switch off and detach are little lessons to be encountered along the way. My worst bores were the germans with awful smelling ointments, which my grandmother used and I remember vividly from childhood and the snorers, my grandfather, and the people who grumbled about the food....and those for whom the whole thing was a doddle because they were so fit and those who "cheated" and took the easy way out like taking taxis......at the end of the day all these intolerances are just reflections of ourselves and what we fear/dislike about ourselves.
Hmmm, 54 now and still learning, probably less tolerant than in my youth, Gitti
 

-404

New Member
i met a few people like this, mainly from northern Europe, it wasn't really my cup of tea, being catholic and doing the pilgrimage for religious reasons, but you learn to listen to people and their stories, even if you think its total BS it gives you something to write about in your journal or to laugh about on your return home
 
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Anonymous

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self edited -


I give up ...
dear readers with the ability to use logic, please feel free to download this kit ....
 

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kerrysean

New Member
So glad that my post provoked such a refreshingly spirited and 'un-nice' discussion, sorry if it offended anyone but I get the feeling that the people who were erring on the side of uneasiness about my observations were 'protesting' a bit 'too loudly' to paraphrase Shakespeare. I accept that we have to be to tolerant and all that, but really, all I dared to observe was that there was a strain of thinking quite prevalent on the Camino amongst, yes mainly 'northern' europeans, which presupposes that we were all in the same boat regarding embracing 'past lives', ley lines, auras, and all that jazz. I am indeed a rather passive and laid back sort of person and did entertain without a challenge, a number of fellow pilgrims who seemed to assume that I naturally agreed with their outlook, a not unsurprising assumption, since there were an awful lot of perigrinos who seemed ostensibly at least to have embraced this view point.

I must add... rather mischievously perhaps...that if I had 10 euros for the number of times that a German peregrino explained to me how they had been inspired by a 'book by a really funny german comedian who has done the camino' , then I could probably have afforded to stay in the Parador for a week on the back of it. German pilgrims take note...I and virtually every one else I met, who wasnt German, ARE not in the slightest bit interested in that book by that comedian guy...I was amazed that German walkers really seemed amazed that we had not heard of this guys publication...I in turn was amazed that so many people seemed totally candid about having embarked such a major enterprise on the back of reading some funny guys book.... :lol:
 
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D

Deleted member 3000

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Hape Kerkeling is the best known German comedian in Europe with a name recognition on par with Angela Merkel. He has regular TV and radio shows. His book on the Camino was a best seller. I have read the translation, and I think that it ranks with the best of the Camino books. Non-Europeans may not have heard of him, but the Germans probably did not have that clearly in mind -- we all have a tendency to be a bit myopic. Shirley MacLaine's book caused an increase in the number of North American pilgrims. If you asked an American in 2001 why he was on the Camino, he might have mentioned MacLaine. I found it interesting that so many Germans suddenly wanted to walk the pilgrimage because of a book, just as the French and Spanish might have been fascinated that MacLaine inspired Americans. I shared a dinner table in O Cebreiro with two Germans. One phoned his wife, who was listening to Kerkeling's radio program on the subject of O Cebreiro even as they spoke. That might be boring to some, but I was quite amazed at the synchronicity (too New Wave, perhaps, even for this atheist).
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Interesting - and it proves that the UK is still not European as we have never heard of him.
 

alexwalker

Forever Pilgrim
Past OR future Camino
(2009): Camino Frances
(2011): Sevilla-Salamanca, VdlP
(2012): Salamanca-SdC, VdlP
(2014): SJpdP-Astorga
(2015): Astorga-SdC
(2016) May Pamplona-Moratinos; Sept.:Burgos-SdC
(2016): August/Sept: Camino San Olav (Burgos-Covarubbias), Burgos-Sarria
(2017): May: Portuguese; Sept: Pamplona-SdC
Never heard of him.
 

Kevin F. O*brien

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
2002-2019 Via Podiensis, Camino Frances, Via de la plata, Camino del Norte, Camino Primitivo, etc.
Hello all, thanks for all the interesting comments. Rebekah was her caustic and accurate self, and Brother David's translation was I thought, beautiful and profound. I think we often take part in these discussions because they bring back to us in some small way the long and dusty road, and make us feel that in some remote way we are still "there". Anyway, I felt l learned something from all of you.
Cheers,

Kevin
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Anniesantiago said:
So Gareth, post the prayer? :lol:
Well, I have been busy and just returned to this thread: now Andy.d has beaten me to it.

Yes, that's the version of the Jesus Prayer I use, but there are also longer or shorter versions of it. The breathing and walking routine I was talking about goes like this: (INTAKE) "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God..." (EXHALE) "Have mercy on me a sinner." (SILENCE - ONE, TWO, THREE STEPS - AND REPEAT) The rhythm is one that I found works out naturally for me, and it's just an example of the way it can be used while walking, so don't take this as prescriptive: I'm just explaining how I use it.

Looking at some of the posts here, I am surprised at the way such a tongue-in-cheek subject can get so quickly out of hand. Steady on, folks! :?

Gareth
 
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andy.d

Veteran Member
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Gareth Thomas said:
Anniesantiago said:
Well, I have been busy and just returned to this thread: now Andy.d has beaten me to it.
Gareth

Sorry Gareth - I'd just posted about it on the new blog, so couldn't resist!

pax et bonum

Andy
 

Hermanita

Active Member
falcon269 said:
Hape Kerkeling is the best known German comedian in Europe with a name recognition on par with Angela Merkel. He has regular TV and radio shows. His book on the Camino was a best seller. I have read the translation, and I think that it ranks with the best of the Camino books. Non-Europeans may not have heard of him, but the Germans probably did not have that clearly in mind -- we all have a tendency to be a bit myopic. Shirley MacLaine's book caused an increase in the number of North American pilgrims. If you asked an American in 2001 why he was on the Camino, he might have mentioned MacLaine. I found it interesting that so many Germans suddenly wanted to walk the pilgrimage because of a book, just as the French and Spanish might have been fascinated that MacLaine inspired Americans. I shared a dinner table in O Cebreiro with two Germans. One phoned his wife, who was listening to Kerkeling's radio program on the subject of O Cebreiro even as they spoke. That might be boring to some, but I was quite amazed at the synchronicity (too New Wave, perhaps, even for this atheist).

Well said falcon.
I am reading Hape Kerkeling's book right now and find it quite funny and at times spiritual and thoughtprovoking. He is quite a character and I can see why he is so popular in Germany.

You are right it is one of the better Camino books I have read and I have read plenty of Camino books.
But I think Joyce Rupp's "Walk in a Relaxed Manner" so far the best I have read.

People are influenced to walk the Camino or do other adventurous things in their life by many things that are far less significant than being inspired by reading a book.
 

kerrysean

New Member
Hey lets get it all out there, better out than in 8) ..another phrase which I would prefer is not used with such deadening regularity is ' what is the camino trying to tell you??' usually delivered in a soulful and wondering tone of voice when you casually report on something as innocuous as lost notepad, a torn trousers, or an absence of toilet roll in the toilets...
I would also like to say that many of the cyclists on the walking routes are a bloody danger to themselves and others hurtling down hills at breakneck pace scattering all before them with a loud 'buon camino'...this is meant to be a greeting not a warning.
Finally people who cook every night in the kitchens and heat up oats and stuff in the morning are just being totally mean with their money :evil: ,the same people are usually wearing outdoor gear that costs hundreds of euros :lol: for goodness sake!! it is not expensive to eat at the cafes and bars when the 'peregrino' menus are usually seven or eight euros max. I think it is good to put something back into the local economy and it is good too, to eat spanish food, albeit of a limited variety...Another aspect associated with this practice is that a number of the 'kitchen brigade' then disseminate around the cafes and bars afterwards, and inevitably are enjoined to join generous groups of peregrino diners, many many times I observed that these people would quite regularly partake of a glass or two of wine offered by diners who had been given the wine as part of their meal...They rarely offered to buy a drink back afterwards...Lastly where does anyone get the right to regard a 'donativo' albergue as being worthy of just three euros, a number of ( yes german) peregrinos told me they thought this was a 'fair' amount as a donation :roll:
Lastly...will someone please explain to the misguided klutzes who disport those bloody walking poles....not staffs or individual walking poles, but those sort of ski prong things that now seem to be de rigeur for every german and nordic on the camino :roll: ... unless used properly these wretched things are of no bloody use at all...dragging them which many do, simply impedes progress...Anyway isnt there something distinctly aesthetically unpleasing about having to watch hordes of germans and scandinavians mincing along with these things anyway?? :) and walking along with a person wielding these outrageously pretentious items is difficult since you are in danger of being pronged in the foot by them or being tripped up...they certainly were'nt around in the older days of the camino...I see no biblical or historical tracts with pictures of people twerping along with these ludicrous implements...I dont care if you think they help you walk, they just look naff and the people who use them are making it look like a sort of overland version of an olympic ski slalom course...the users either dont know how to use them, or are so unutterably smug that they should be banned from the camino period.... :wink:
 
D

Deleted member 3000

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From a pole-hater:

II. The "Pro" Side: Advantages of Trekking Poles

Most obviously, poles reduce the impact of hiking on knee joints and leg muscles. Arm and shoulder muscles support and relieve the leg muscles. With the basic "hands above the heart" position necessitated by the poles, circulation is improved and heart rate is reduced. The "rhythm" created by walking with poles leads to relaxed, more regular breathing and increased stamina.

A landmark study published by Dr. G. Neureuther in 1981 proved that use of "ski poles" while walking reduces the pressure strain on the opposite leg by approximately 20%. Furthermore, while walking on level ground, poles reduce the body weight carried by the legs by approximately 5 kg every step. Move to an incline, and that reduction increases to 8 kg. This translates into tons of weight -- yes, tons -- for even a two hour hike.

Jacquie Hunt, editor of a popular hiking newsletter, weighs in with additional health benefits: "An advantage that I found once I started using poles is that my hands no longer swell up when it is hot. Keeping your arms moving so the blood doesn't pool in the hands is a lot safer than keeping hands high on pack straps and risking a smashed face if you trip."

Finally, poles help many people with balance issues. We all have different comfort levels when balancing along puncheons, crossing streams, etc.; for some hikers, trekking poles are worth their weight in gold. They can certainly aid when crossing soft ground, and can be indispensible [sic] for tasks like river crossings, and scree running.

III. The "Con" Side: Problems with Trekking Poles

There are two categories of drawbacks to hiking poles -- those legitimate, and those perceived. One of the main problems with my comments in the LA Times article is that my "over the top" approach precluded me from stating the legitimate drawbacks to using poles. So here goes...

First, using poles increases your total energy expenditure. Your arms were not designed to prop up your body, nor to distribute weight. Even Peter Clinch, whose "Pete's Pole Page" is long recognized as an on-line authority, says, "...if you have tired legs and knees then poles can be a win, but if you have a tired body, with your cardiovascular system at its limits, then poles may be more of a hindrance than a help." Those "tons of weight" that poles save the knees aren't carried up the hill by themselves. Many hikers with good legs are unaware that they actually may run out of gas more quickly by using poles.

Not only do poles make hands and arms do what they aren't designed to do, they prevent your hands from being hands! Open the map, eat a snack, wipe your brow, grab a rock, snap a photo, read a compass...all of these become clumsy and time consuming with poles in hand.

The final "legitimate" con is that many people simply do not use poles correctly. Clinch says, "judging from the people I see in the UK using poles, the majority of folk get little or no benefit from them." Without proper technique, poles are simply in the way. And that brings us to the "perceived" drawbacks.

What this pole hater is saying is "poles work," but I just don't like them! Science has left him isolated by his ignorance.
 
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Canuck

Veteran wanderer
Past OR future Camino
?
Kerrysean,

Bravely spoken, centurion!

Wait for the Nordic flurry...

Cheers,
Jean-Marc
 

nellpilgrim

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
SDC-Fisterra 08/Camino Frances SJPP to SDC 09/Nuremburg-SDC 11- ongoing
KellySean and Canuck......well its not exactly a 'nordic flurry' more of a celtic "ye lads need to get out more often" .
But seeing as you brought walking poles up... the bloody things make one look like a preying mantis trying to crochet, you didn't even mention the exasperating little 'clickity click' they make on a hard surface-this is especially annoying when being used by an overtaking 'pilgrim sportif' it sounds like Fred Astair is in hot pursuit and drives up both the pace and blood pressure of the overtaken pilgrim. Of course to prevent the noise pollution users can 'shoe' them with rubber bungs that wear out (at an uneven rate) and are a complete pig to remove so they end up wrestling with the bloody things in danger of impaling themselves or a fellow pilgrims. They are a headache at airports and snag on animate and inanimate items without discretion. They are ridiculously expensive, made of alloys developed by the defense industry for weapons of mass destruction therefore politically unsound and they make you look a right eijit....(Irish term meaning well pretty much person in lycra with walking poles actually )
However you can use them to:- construct washing lines and shelters, gently prod errant snorers-even on the top bunk, practice baton twirling to amuse ones friends, theoretically one can sabotage the downhill rush of a cyclist by accidently 'spoking' a wheel (this was a personal fantasy of mine I am afraid), rescue sandals floating off down stream, write messages in snow, mud or sand, brandish at dogs if being approached on two sides simultaneously, put through the arms of your jacket to speed up the drying process, use to keep doors/windows/shutters shut for warmth and/or security, but above all they develop and nurture the intolerance of other pilgrims.

P.S. I am a pole-hating pole-using pilgrim (PHPU) who could not have attempted the Camino without the damn things- them and NASA designed knee straps. So be warned though I may respect, and even share, your opinions I wouldn't like to think where one of my poles might end up if you tried to take them from me!
 

Hermanita

Active Member
kerrysean
Is there ANYTHING about your pilgrimage that you DID like and don't have a gripe about???

I will be the one in the kitchen cooking and eating my own food when possible, NOT because I am "mean" with my money, but because I am not a fan of restaurant food, and have specific dietary needs. And don't worry kerrysean I won't drink any of your wine either.
Oats for breakfast happen to be very nutritious. Maybe better than the fare that you will get in a cafe. did you ever consider that perhaps these folks have dietary and medical reasons or that some people just prefer to eat first thing in the morning. I know my mother was a diabetic and had to eat at specific times and certain foods.

As for What is the camino trying to tell you?, I don't think that is an unreasonable question to hear asked on a spiritual pilgrimage. Maybe you have a better one, if so, I'd like to hear it.

the 3 euro donativo as a fair amount seems to be a general consensus, as it has been quoted many times in this forum by many who have walked and I don't recall any of them being German.
 

lynnejohn

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Frances(2005), VDLP(2007), Madrid(2009), Ingles(2009), Sur (2011), VDLP(2011)-partial, VDLP(2014)
Oh please. I am a responsible pole-using pilgrim (RPUP). My poles have rubber tips, and even so, when I'm walking on hard surfaces, they are retracted and inserted into the side of my pack. You won't hear any clacking from me. They are not pretentious; I'm not smug. They were prescribed by my physiotherapist. Best of all benefits, they keep my hands from swelling.

Peace.

lynne
 
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nellpilgrim

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
SDC-Fisterra 08/Camino Frances SJPP to SDC 09/Nuremburg-SDC 11- ongoing
lynnejohn said:
Oh please. I am a responsible pole-using pilgrim (RPUP). My poles have rubber tips, and even so, when I'm walking on hard surfaces, they are retracted and inserted into the side of my pack. You won't hear any clacking from me. They are not pretentious; I'm not smug. They were prescribed by my physiotherapist. Best of all benefits, they keep my hands from swelling.

Peace.

lynne

Lynne of course you are right poles are lifesavers to those of us who need them and really do prevent the hand/finger swelling and also that annoying itchy fingers feeling.
If walking poles weren't selected then some other 'targets' for laddish invective would have to be found. I am sure that the guys inventiveness will have gaiters, head torches, power drinks and God knows what else written off in no time all.
I think my point, which was obviously lost, was the very fact that one needs an essential 'aide' at all can be more irksome to the user than any passing annoyance felt by others. If, while trying to slip that notion 'under the radar' disguised as humour, I have offended any/all RPUPs....sorry about that its just my twisted irish mind.
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa
 

johnie99

New Member
One doesn't need any particular medical condition, to enable the use of poles! As a very fit hiker, I wouldn't dare to walk without them. Rhythm and pace is what its all about. They make walking so much easier and more pleasant.

There is one caveat - dogs hate the click click sound. On approaching the more remote villages of the vdlp, we always stopped using them. Otherwise, the evil animals got very excited.

John.

P.s. In my video blog, u will see an orgy of poles in every other frame, lol.
 

lynnejohn

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Frances(2005), VDLP(2007), Madrid(2009), Ingles(2009), Sur (2011), VDLP(2011)-partial, VDLP(2014)
I agree. Further, poles should always be stowed when walking through villages and towns out of respect for the residents. Additionally, I agree that one needn't have a medical condition to require poles. Some of us in the "troisième âge" ("seniors", but I prefer the former term) :wink: lose some balancing ability so poles indeed are a safety aid to navigate stones across streams and other terrain requiring balance.

lynne
 

Bridget and Peter

Active Member
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kerrysean said:
I would also like to say that many of the cyclists on the walking routes are a bloody danger to themselves and others hurtling down hills at breakneck pace scattering all before them with a loud 'buon camino'...this is meant to be a greeting not a warning.
Finally people who cook every night in the kitchens and heat up oats and stuff in the morning are just being totally mean with their money :evil:


Confession is good for the soul they say, so here goes...
My name is Bridget and I ride a bicycle and eat porridge for breakfast.

But I ring my bell on the rare occasions I need to, and I do buy the oats in the local shops.

And I certainly do not wear any expensive gear. Even the bike is a cheap one.
 

MichaelB10398

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
2022
We have gotten a good way from the topic of this thread. Of course individuals can use poles on the Camino. Of course, the Camino is opened to all; from the ignorant to the enlightened, from the social misfit to those blessed with grace.

This was a case of venting or possible the work of a troll (those who seek only to be disagreeable). Let it go. Most importantly, no one gets to judge other pilgrims; if they do it can simply be ignored.

Buen Camino,

Michael
 
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Anonymous

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The beginning of this topic was rather clever and funny, and so were the responses .. recently it seems to have gone rather downhill with two long dull and slightly offensive diatribes -

all a bit dull really :| , and I shan't even bother defend my pole carrying (one), home cooking, porridge eating corner ...
 
D

Deleted member 3000

Guest
The beginning of this topic was rather clever and funny, and so were the responses
While there was an occasional bon mot, most of this thread has been a little nasty in my opinion. Enjoyable, but pretty nasty, and rarely dull or boring, again IMHO.
 

Bridget and Peter

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La Isla to Santiago Sept/Oct 2014
Sometimes there is a cultural divide - what one person intends as ironic and humorous - and actually a dig at him/herself for having such intolerances, which it goes without saying he/she knows is a fault in her/himself - is read by others as pretty serious and a dig at those who have the quirks/motivations/walking poles/oat eating tendencies they are writing about.

Some of us treat this forum like a bunch of like-minded friends, and offer thoughts that maybe are a bit 'off' expecting them to be understood as a lighthearted observation, and then feel a bit taken aback by being 'told off'. We tend to forget that we don't actually know each other and we can't read the visual signals which usually tell us when our 'teases' are going too far for our listeners, or say something extra to make our intentions clear.

I am sometimes surprised by the serious replies to something I have taken as the former which show that others have read it to be the latter. I often check across to the location of the writer to see where they come from in order to decide whether a contentious statement is meant to be taken seriously or not, or why someone has taken seriously something which I thought was a tease.

MichaelB10398 said:
This was a case of venting or possible the work of a troll (those who seek only to be disagreeable). Let it go. Most importantly, no one gets to judge other pilgrims; if they do it can simply be ignored.

I am sure Kerrysean is not being a troll. I like the teases. I was happy to be insulted as a cyclist/oat eater and my reply was meant to be in a similar tone. Maybe we should all use the smiley (or not) faces to indicate what our intentions are.
 

j maguire

New Member
Well said Bridget and Peter !

I have been following this thread since inception and have found it to be the most entertaining thread that I have encountered on any camino site!

It has been compulsive reading from the start.

As a pole using celtic oat eater I found kerrysean's tongue in cheek comments, and indeed most of the replys to be so funny.Thanks for the Laugh!

To the Troll hunters............. Lighten up !

Buen Camino :roll: :roll:
 

kerrysean

New Member
Oh come now now boys and girls...I am not a troll at all. I just enjoy a bit of light hearted banter now and again...the observant amongst ye will have noticed the wink smiley at the end of the last 'diatribe'...and frankly the thread has succeeded, since my intention, was to lighten the atmosphere on what at times can be a rather earnest and po-faced ole forum...I have many many happy memories of the camino, not least was the good natured banter and ribbing that lightened many an hour and evening...Have a laugh, be prepared to accept that I am having fun...In all honesty life is too short, and our precious personal pride is too fragile to be really worth the effort getting uptight about it...Real friends can have fun with each other, and really it is possible to hate the bloody walking poles but love the pole walker.. :lol: Me, I am middle aged, flatulent, a soccer bore, and I am tedious when I am allowed to chunter on about the evils of global capitalism, fast food, starbucks, and rap music, I am often boring, often unintentionally inclined to leap to pre-judgement about people, places, and things, in fact I am a fairly average human being...But I really do believe that heaven will, if it exists, be filled with laughter, not just polite little titters, but some wry smiling, some belly laughs, and the sort derived from a good old fashioned ribbing between friends of each others absurdities....
PS...Bro David so sorry that you couldnt go the extra mile with me when I rounded on all those lovely pole walking, kitchen using, cycle-hogs, et al...Please dont ever take anything I say on here too seriously.. 8)
 
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kerrysean

New Member
Hermanita said:
kerrysean
Is there ANYTHING about your pilgrimage that you DID like and don't have a gripe about???

I will be the one in the kitchen cooking and eating my own food when possible, NOT because I am "mean" with my money, but because I am not a fan of restaurant food, and have specific dietary needs. And don't worry kerrysean I won't drink any of your wine either.
Oats for breakfast happen to be very nutritious. Maybe better than the fare that you will get in a cafe. did you ever consider that perhaps these folks have dietary and medical reasons or that some people just prefer to eat first thing in the morning. I know my mother was a diabetic and had to eat at specific times and certain foods.

As for What is the camino trying to tell you?, I don't think that is an unreasonable question to hear asked on a spiritual pilgrimage. Maybe you have a better one, if so, I'd like to hear it.

the 3 euro donativo as a fair amount seems to be a general consensus, as it has been quoted many times in this forum by many who have walked and I don't recall any of them being German.


Let me just say Hermanita....it is amazing to me to hear anyone suggest that three euros is a 'fair' donation...when most who state a charge come in at about 7 or 8...If you think that there is a 'general consensus' about 3 being correct....may I have the temerity to challenge it, by stating that it is nothing short of astonishing that someone will seek to justify paying the same for a nights shelter and washing facilities, what one would quite commonly be charged for a cup of coffee in any european main line railway station...I am sticking to my guns on that one...you are simply abusing the hospitality of the proprietors, and I think that deep down you must know that...
 

anniethenurse

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Camino Frances.Vasco del Interior.Camino Finisterre& Muxia. Camino Portugues. Ruta del Ebro.
kerrysean said:
Hermanita said:
kerrysean
Is there ANYTHING about your pilgrimage that you DID like and don't have a gripe about???

I will be the one in the kitchen cooking and eating my own food when possible, NOT because I am "mean" with my money, but because I am not a fan of restaurant food, and have specific dietary needs. And don't worry kerrysean I won't drink any of your wine either.
Oats for breakfast happen to be very nutritious. Maybe better than the fare that you will get in a cafe. did you ever consider that perhaps these folks have dietary and medical reasons or that some people just prefer to eat first thing in the morning. I know my mother was a diabetic and had to eat at specific times and certain foods.

As for What is the camino trying to tell you?, I don't think that is an unreasonable question to hear asked on a spiritual pilgrimage. Maybe you have a better one, if so, I'd like to hear it.

the 3 euro donativo as a fair amount seems to be a general consensus, as it has been quoted many times in this forum by many who have walked and I don't recall any of them being German.


Let me just say Hermanita....it is amazing to me to hear anyone suggest that three euros is a 'fair' donation...when most who state a charge come in at about 7 or 8...If you think that there is a 'general consensus' about 3 being correct....may I have the temerity to challenge it, by stating that it is nothing short of astonishing that someone will seek to justify paying the same for a nights shelter and washing facilities, what one would quite commonly be charged for a cup of coffee in any european main line railway station...I am sticking to my guns on that one...you are simply abusing the hospitality of the proprietors, and I think that deep down you must know that...


Right on John - paying only the 3 € for a night IS ABUSIVE. I saw a couple of pilgrims from an European country with MANY MANY pilgrims who only paid 50 cents for a night in a donativo with shower (hot water) and breakfast! oh my God...and heard him bragging about it in the morning after the obligatory breakfast when started walking in his very expensive gear. Some Municipals (Burgos,Logroño) charge 3 - 5 € minimum and they have a donativo box on the desk for your donations. Use it.
I am sure that some pilgrims are on very tight budget but not all of them at all... so we others should contribute to the local economics in the bad times like today. We should contribute so the albergues can keep the high level of cleanliness and comfort (hot water, clean bath room, kitchen and laundry areas etc) Not necessary to mention but on my camino me and my friends donated 5 - 10 € each person each night each person when ever adequate or appropriate... And making profit - maybe investing the profit in the albergues makes the whole pilgrimage even better next year the Holy Year so more pilgrims will get a place to overnight...
annie
 
D

Deleted member 3000

Guest
From the U.S., I spend $600-800 to get to Spain, so 3 Euro ($3.66 on my last visit, $4.30 today) does seem to fall in the category of a rounding error. I give thousands annually to charitable causes and work hundreds of hours each year with Lions International, so I do not think that I am either cheap or uncharitable, though self-criticism is not my long suit. When traveling with another, I can get a one-star hostal for 25 Euro, so I am reluctant to pay 10-12 Euro each for a cold-water dormitory. The 5-8 Euro in non-donativo albergues seems about right. Ponferrada is donativo, but the hospitalero will tirelessly hold the donation box in front of the pilgrim until he hears something fall that does not "clink." He may be working as a volunteer, but there are still the utilities, repairs, cleaning, and insurance to be paid. With hundreds of pilgrims starting each week at Ponferrada, I am sure that experience has taught him that the freeloaders will leave nothing if he is not brazen about a donation. Americans have a hard time not leaving a 15-20% tip in a restaurant, but that is not the custom in Spain and France, and it "spoils" it for other travelers. Similarly, a pilgrim should not over-pay for accommodations; it spoils it for others. If you really want to help a dilapidated albergue, pay 100 Euro. No one will mistake it for payment for a night's lodging, and it really will help (as opposed to an extra 5 Euro, which does very little unless matched by dozens of other pilgrims).

And don't complain about others who do not do it the way you do. You will spoil the forgiveness in your compostela before you ever get out of Spain!
 

Hermanita

Active Member
Most of information I get about the Camino is from this forum and I have seen in many threads is 3 euros for donativo. I did not suggest it... all I said was it seemed to be the general consensus in this forum.

I am not saying whether it is fair or not. It is just what I have read here.


Some Municipals (Burgos,Logroño) charge 3 - 5 € minimum

Oops..and there it is again from anniethenurse right in this thread.
 

kerrysean

New Member
Listen Hermanita and Falcon...surely you do not need to be 'guided' by a consensus that 3 euros is ok, just use your common sense of decency.. :roll: It is self evidently worth far more than this paltry sum to have access to safe, clean, and relatively comfortable accomodation when on the camino...As I said this is an abuse, and is often justified and indeed as pointed out earlier even bragged about by so called 'peregrinos' who see this as an opportunity to get away with something for next to nothing..The very same people will probably consider themselves to be deeply 'spiritual'...what a laugh...Three euros will buy you next to nothing in the 'real world', two bars of chocolate at most, a coffee and a biscuit, etc etc....The point about costs and upkeep and refurbishment costs is well made. Sad that the hospitalero in Ponferrada has to hold out the box til a note falls, the fact that he does have to do that surely illustrates that this IS a problem...The point is that he SHOULD'NT have to..I started off with a mock serious bit of banter about new age 'bores' etc...But I think that all through this thread I have been deliberately pricking the bubbles of self deceit that so many perigrinos have about the camino...It is not perfect, it is not a sort of mobile shangri-la there are many things about the behaviour and values of a substantial number of 'peregrinos' that I would argue is a long long way from the spirit of pilgrimage. In fact I would say that from the beginning of this thread I have been light heartedly suggesting that selfishness, self obsession, and self indulgence are rife on the camino. All these negative aspects are expressed in different ways, whether it be waking other people up at 5.30 in the morning, talking about 'your'
beliefs and 'your' camino, or nearly running people down when cycling downhill, walking poles often retail at between 60 to 100 euros...
Surely Pilgrimage is about losing the enslavement of the 'self' NOT strengthening it...I never saw a single peregrino pick up the mop to clean the toilets or the showers, but I heard plenty complain about them if they were below par...I am pleased to say that on the few occasions I observed a problem I set about doing something about it...But really, really, three measly euros as 'fair'..you must be joking surely..
PS it is utterly irrelevant that you donate to charities Falcon, and you travelled a long way, I donate
to charities too,and I have yet to find a restaurant, department store, or bus company, who would not consider me barking mad if I started to say that I deserved a discount for services rendered because I was a philanthropic donator to a variety of worthy causes...Get real guys. :shock:
 
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kerrysean

New Member
Sorry Falcon I was incorrect to include you in that last reply, you are speaking good sense, I thought you were saying that you should pay less cos you give to charity...but being a klutz and utterly fallible I misunderstood your point...Mea Culpa.. :lol:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
No - I'm not upset or misread, I do also do humour .......... :wink:

All this is interesting as it would seem that there are unwritten 'rules' , that there is a deep awareness of a sense of fairness and morality and ethics, and that when some people do not act within those norms then these reactions follow .. so .. my question is .. where does this innate sense of fairness and integrity and ethics and morality come from? .........
.. rhetorical question ... but, think on.

In the New Testament there is an incident, related more than once, to do with a poor widow and her putting in merely two mites to the temple - at that period 100 mites would buy just one loaf of bread.

In Mark 12:41-46, for instance, my Master said this

Once He was standing opposite the temple treasury, watching as people dropped their money into the chest. Many rich people were giving large sums. Presently there came a poor widow who dropped in just two tiny Mites, together worth a farthing. He called his disciples to him and pointed her out to them.
"I tell you this," He said, "this poor widow has given more than any of the others; for those others who have given had more than enough, but she, with less than enough, has given all that she had to live on."


So, I think it is not the amount given that people become aggrieved about, it is the proportion given out of people's means - don't you think?
 

ajp

Member
Past OR future Camino
Sept-October (2009), Sept-Oct (2013)
Regarding this:

"So, I think it is not the amount given that people become aggrieved about, it is the proportion given out of people's means - don't you think?"

How true. It is those who take paltry advantage of the "system" and feel they have pulled a fast one that bug all of us. Anyone who has means and leaves 3E is simply cheating the system, and by extension, all of the other pilgrims who rely on those facilities, particularly the ones truly in need.

AJP
Victoria
 

Annette

Member
Hi guys,


Is it just me or it this thread not starting to take a wrong turn...
As mentioned before here I know there are different cultures - different kinds of humor... (what is funn and what is not)...

However I start to get the feeling this has become "finger-pointing" and "arguement" rather than sharing information and experience...

But... hey... maybe it is just me. ?

Be nice to each other please and do not take all this to personal... in the meantime I will stay out of this thread as I think it has gone off track...
 

anniethenurse

Veteran Member
Past OR future Camino
Camino Frances.Vasco del Interior.Camino Finisterre& Muxia. Camino Portugues. Ruta del Ebro.
Hermanita you quoted the first part of the meaning suiting your purposes and left out the latter part that makes sense according to me. Municipal in Burgos charges 3€, Santo Domingo 5€ and Logroño 7€. Donations are welcome. The low price allows even the pilgrims on a low budget to stay in these cities, so they can participate the mass in the catedrals etc...

annie

I am
= an old age bore spending some time in many churches and cathedrals praying quietly along the camino
= a user of Nordic walking poles without clickety clic (with reserve shoes if needed)
= supporting the local economics (like in every country I visit)
= an ignorant Swede - never heard about Hape Kerkeling :D


peace
 
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