Buying pepper spray in Madrid

[ChessHead]

Can anyone advise where to buy pepper spray in Madrid? Does anyone sell it on a Sunday? Thanks!

 

[henrythedog]

Can anyone advise where to buy pepper spray in Madrid? Does anyone sell it on a Sunday? Thanks!

Any gun shop and probably not.

Are you anticipating encountering a situation which you think might justify using it?

If you’re thinking guard dogs, you might want to get two, one for the dog and one for the owner.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Ummm - at the risk of sounding rude, you are in Spain. There aren't too many countries that I would consider safer. What on earth would you want that for?

Even in countries where pepper spray may be legal with a license, (Switzerland, Germany and Portugal - not sure about Spain) if you use it against a person it may constitute assault in the EU.
Edit : apologies, apparently you ARE legally allowed to use it for self-defense in Spain, although I cannot imagine that you would need to as per my comment about safety above.

 

[Tincatinker]

Can anyone advise where to buy pepper spray in Madrid? Does anyone sell it on a Sunday? Thanks!

Your best bet is to pop into the nearest Policia Municipal de Madrid station and ask if you can borrow one of theirs.

I’ve only ever found it useful on the Metro and in particularly crowded supermarkets but you may have other uses in mind

 

[TravellingMan22]

It’s definately legal and if you Google ‘where to buy pepper spay Madrid’ you will get an answer.

 

[Tincatinker]

In Spain it’s legal to cultivate marijuana for personal use but I wouldn’t recommend trying it on Camino. Perhaps the OP is planning ventures into parts of Spain where few of us, @henrythedog excepted, would choose to go. An explanation is anticipated

 

[SabsP]

Can anyone advise where to buy pepper spray in Madrid? Does anyone sell it on a Sunday? Thanks!

Please do tell which Camino you will walk so I can avoid staying in the same places as you.
Even if it is legal that does not mean it is sensible to carry it on a Camino.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Not sure why folks get upset with a person carrying what I presume to be self defence support. A fair few crimes have been reported on the Camino over recent years.

 

[Kohaku]

Not sure why folks get upset with a person carrying what I presume to be self defence support. A fair few crimes have been reported on the Camino over recent years.

Agree, I don’t understand the extreme averse reaction to pepper spray… It seems pretty sensible to carry it as a woman walking solo as I’ve read about MANY instances of sexual assault and or violent assaults. If I could keep it in a carry on I’d have mine with me.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

Good god, what business is it of any of yours if a woman wants to carry pepper spray? Some of your comments are totally unnecessary. I don't want go too far here, but none of you know anyone's past history. If it makes someone (most always a woman) feel safer, more power to her.

 

[peregrina2000]

Not sure why folks get upset with a person carrying what I presume to be self defence support. A fair few crimes have been reported on the Camino over recent years.

I'm not sure how many a "fair few" is exactly, but the overwhelming majority of these crimes consist of thefts in albergues and flashing. Not to minimize either of them, but I think pepper spray would be an extremely disproportionate response. Physical violence and crimes like armed robbery are virtually unheard of on the caminos. And you should consider whether you want to walk carrying a can of pepper spray in your hand, because I think that having it in a side pocket or in your pack would render it useless if you really were a victim of an armed robbery or a physical assault.

 

[peregrina2000]

I’ve read about MANY instances of sexual assault and or violent assaults.

This is simply not true. And I think that this borders on fear mongering. MANY violent assaults? I can think of maybe 4 or 5 over the past 20 years, with many hundreds of thousands of people walking.

 

[Kohaku]

This is simply not true. And I think that this borders on fear mongering. MANY violent assaults? I can think of maybe 4 or 5 over the past 20 years, with many hundreds of thousands of people walking.

On these threads alone I’ve read of quite a few, have researched online, read news reports. I think the Camino is one of those situations people want to see only the good because they are on a spiritual pilgrimage etc. and ignore all the bad when it doesn’t happen to them. I was the victim of an assault in Australia the last time I solo travelled and Australia is generally a “safe” country so excuse me if I’d rather have a “just in case” hope for the best but prepare for the worst attitude.

 

[peregrina2000]

On these threads alone I’ve read of quite a few, have researched online, read news reports. I think the Camino is one of those situations people want to see only the good because they are on a spiritual pilgrimage etc. and ignore all the bad when it doesn’t happen to them. I was the victim of an assault in Australia the last time I solo travelled and Australia is generally a “safe” country so excuse me if I’d rather have a “just in case” hope for the best but prepare for the worst attitude.

Do you carry pepper spray with you when you walk in your home town in the US? I can assure you that the Camino (and all of Spain) is much safer. Telling us that there are “quite a few” violent assaults, or that you have researched online etc is just not helpful. The statistics simply do not support your claims. And this has nothing to do with wanting to see only the good or being on a pilgrimage, it has to do with the facts.

I have not been the victim of a violent assault, though I have been flashed more than a half dozen times on caminos. I certainly don’t presume to understand anything about how your experience has affected you, and I am sorry that you have had to deal with it. But I just don’t think that carrying pepper spray “just in case” is a good way to walk a camino. Walking in fear is going to put a wall around you that will block out a lot of what the Camino can give you.

 

[William Garza]

No opinion on OPs request.
But there may be rules,laws and regulations regarding the deployment of OC spray.

Why
When... and conversely, would it be considered assault on the person?

Is there differences in the provinces where deployed?
Just food for research.

 

[Robo]

I think the reactions to the question are probably based on where the forum member making the comments is from, and the sense of personal safety they enjoy in their home country. Being from the UK, having lived in Germany, and now living in Australia and Thailand I (or my wife) have never felt the need to carry self defence aids of any type.
But hey........ as others have said, we have no right to question the OPs motive for requiring a higher degree of personal security. As long as it's legal.

 

[VNwalking]

Not sure why folks get upset with a person carrying what I presume to be self defence support

It's essentially a weapon, albeit a defensive one. And something that is overkill in the lived reality of the camino.

I’ve read about MANY instances of sexual assault and or violent assaults

This is simply not true. [...] MANY violent assaults? I can think of maybe 4 or 5 over the past 20 years, with many hundreds of thousands of people walking.

Reading here or on FB might give an impression of "many" assaults, but that impression doesn't take onto account the hundreds of thousands of people who walk the Camino each year totally without incident. No-one posts a thread here titled, "No sexual assaults on the Camino Frances today" - but that's the common daily reality on the Camino. There's a lot of chatter here when something awful does happen, precisely because it's such an anomaly.

I think the Camino is one of those situations people want to see only the good because they are on a spiritual pilgrimage etc. and ignore all the bad when it doesn’t happen to them.

Those of us who have walked multiple caminos don't have rose-colored glasses on, but rather the common experience of walking without incident.

There have been a few awful exceptions to this, and no-one is in denial about that. But the reality is that we're far more likely to encounter other kinds of difficulty (like petty theft of belongings left out in albergues, overuse injury, illness, or a fall) where pepper spray is useless.

And this is such a good point:

Walking in fear is going to put a wall around you that will block out a lot of what the Camino can give you.

There is feeling fear from a place of steadiness, and there's seeing everything through a lens of fear. The latter will definitely get in the way of the beauty of the Camino.

I was the victim of an assault in Australia the last time I solo travelled and Australia is generally a “safe” country so excuse me if I’d rather have a “just in case” hope for the best but prepare for the worst attitude.

Given your bad experience, fear is totally - completely - understandable. And many of us peregrinas have had an experience of feeling afraid for our safety on the Camino - I know I have.

But the ccamino can be a chance to channel the energy of that in a powerfully different direction - by protecting ourselves in ways that connect rather than ways that isolate. By walking with others, finding supportive community, and feeling the freedom of being with the fear without letting it drive the train.

Buen camino, peregrina!
May it be a total joy.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I think the reactions to the question are probably based on where the forum member making the comments is from, and the sense of personal safety they enjoy in their home country. Being from the UK, having lived in Germany, and now living in Australia and Thailand I (or my wife) have never felt the need to carry self defence aids of any type.
But hey........ as others have said, we have no right to question the OPs motive for requiring a higher degree of personal security. As long as it's legal.

100% agree. Everyone is entitled to do what they want to enhance / safeguard their personal safety assuming it is legal. I’m quite surprised folks feel it’s ok to lecture people on what is appropriate for a person to do in this regard. Most people don’t make these decisions lightly. Some folks carry pepper spray, some go to self defence classes, some carry an alarm and some do all three. And most do nothing at all. It seems reasonable for a person to carry something if they believe it’s helps them physically or mentally when walking in quiet areas, alone, or in the dark. It may not suit you but it’s for them to decide. I understand it may go against the perceived ‘wholesomeness’ of the Camino but what are people so worried about, you don’t know how they feel.

I started sleeping with a baseball bat by my bed after our home was robbed whilst my young children were asleep in bed there, I started carrying some protection after I had a knife held to my throat and there are other examples. It gave me piece of mind during very difficult times. The incidents did not ‘stand alone’, they played right into an anxiety condition that I had.

I do think there is a lot of ‘la la land’ on here, the Camino providing and all that stuff, and that if you connect you will be safer, or you won’t be able to connect or whatever. If a person feel safer and more secure they are far more likely to enjoy their experience.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I’m quite surprised folks feel it’s ok to lecture people on what is appropriate for a person to do in this regard. Most people don’t make these decisions lightly.

Fully agree. I'm surprised and disappointed by some of the comments.

I also don't understand the need to defend the camino. No one saying it's a dangerous place. As the OP further elaborated, being victim of sexual assault can be the worst trauma and if helps her sleep at night, and feel protected, great.

 

[Kirkie]

The OP did not yet comment for a second time.
but I might have missed it...

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

I was the victim of an assault in Australia the last time I solo travelled and Australia is generally a “safe” country so excuse me if I’d rather have a “just in case” hope for the best but prepare for the worst attitude.

I asked, you answered, and perhaps @ChessHead has had a similar experience. If carrying it makes either of you feel safer, and allows you to enjoy the beauty of the Camino then I fully understand and support you.

Whilst this may be a more extreme example than most many of us carry "just in case" items.

I personally think that as @peregrina2000 says, the research has highlighted the very rare incidents of the past few years - nonetheless incidents they were. And just because the incidents are only one in a 100,000 does not mean that it was any less traumatic for that one person

Frankly as per the other more positive comments above, at the very least I think that whether an individual supports it or not, we should all just simply accept the decision. Asking why you want it or making a joke about it is one thing, rude comments are something all together different and not what I generally expect from this forum and it's members.

@ChessHead - We all walk our own Camino, may yours be safe and joyful

 

[VNwalking]

rude comments

Can someone please point out what these are, specifically? I don't see any. Contradictory, perhaps, but nothing rude. Unless anything short of complete agreement is rude.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

Can someone please point out what these are, specifically? I don't see any. Contradictory, perhaps, but nothing rude. Unless anything short of complete agreement is rude.

There are some unwarranted snarky and sarcastic comments. I think the point is the OP didn't ask for everyone's opinion on why she wants to carry pepper spray. She wasn't asking us if we agreed with her, just where she could purchase it.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I asked, you answered, and perhaps @ChessHead has had a similar experience. If carrying it makes either of you feel safer, and allows you to enjoy the beauty of the Camino then I fully understand and support you.

Whilst this may be a more extreme example than most many of us carry "just in case" items.

I personally think that as @trecile says, the research has highlighted the very rare incidents of the past few years - nonetheless incidents they were. And just because the incidents are only one in a 100,000 does not mean that it was any less traumatic for that one person

Frankly as per the other more positive comments above, at the very least I think that whether an individual supports it or not, we should all just simply accept the decision. Asking why you want it or making a joke about it is one thing, rude comments are something all together different and not what I generally expect from this forum and it's members.

@ChessHead - We all walk our own Camino, may yours be safe and joyful

Smart words. And whilst number/magnitude of incidents can be reassuring they are only part of the story. My home invasion send me into a very downward spiral, and I could barely function for a number of months. What if this, what if that. In the record books it went down as ‘minor incident, not much taken, no one hurt’ case closed. It didn’t even make the local paper in a week where a fireman rescuing a cat got signicant coverage.

Doing ‘something’ ( getting the baseball bat) helped me a little along the way.

 

[William Garza]

Smart words. And whilst number/magnitude of incidents can be reassuring they are only part of the story. My home invasion send me into a very downward spiral, and I could barely function for a number of months. What if this, what if that. In the record books it went down as ‘minor incident, not much taken, no one hurt’ case closed. It didn’t even make the local paper in a week where a fireman rescuing a cat got signicant coverage.

It IS quite unsettling and life changing.
When they came for 5 cars one nite, it was a culmination of incursions going on for about 2 weeks.
When another thief drove up beside me one nite..i took care of business.

Its been 2 years or so since and life did change forever. The hyper vigilance,the anxiety is finally wearing away.
I do hope you do eventually find a measure of peace

 

[TravellingMan22]

Ahb

It IS quite unsettling and life changing.
When they came for 5 cars one nite, it was a culmination of incursions going on for about 2 weeks.
When another thief drove up beside me one nite..i took care of business.

Its been 2 years or so since and life did change forever. The hyper vigilance,the anxiety is finally wearing away.
I do hope you do eventually find a measure of peace

Ah thank you for those words. Very kind of you. I am fine now thank you and I hope you are getting there too. It’s does wear away after time, and the noise in the night becomes just a noise than imminent danger. But I am careful not to leave my guard down as that can be a weakness of mine. Wishing you all the best.

 

[chinacat]

I personally think that as @trecile says, the research has highlighted the very rare incidents of the past few years -

She did?
Where???

 

[sun is shining]

Fully agree. I'm surprised and disappointed by some of the comments.

I also don't understand the need to defend the camino. No one saying it's a dangerous place. As the OP further elaborated, being victim of sexual assault can be the worst trauma and if helps her sleep at night, and feel protected, great.

I don’t think this is just about defending the Camino (if at all) but rather that fact that in Europe we don’t carry weapons around because we can - very clearly - see what happens in countries where this is standard. @Robo is spot on, the replies here are pretty obviously divided by where people are from.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I

She did?
Where???

I think @trecile posts are always so smart and intelligent, we assume anything of that ilk is from her anyway!! Even if she hasn’t posted!!

 

[TravellingMan22]

I don’t think this is just about defending the Camino (if at all) but rather that fact that in Europe we don’t carry weapons around because we can - very clearly - see what happens in countries where this is standard. @Robo is spot on, the replies here are pretty obviously divided by where people are from.

Accept that to a degree, although I do think there is a degree of ‘rose tinted’ glasses around the whole Camino thing. Can be quite nice actually, and a respite from the everyday world! My emerging view is that posts may be guided by previous experience of crime against you. I have had female friends who have been flashed at and treated it relatively ‘mildly’, and a female friend who had previously been subjected to previous sexual violence who really struggled for a long time. Just my thought which Injave no data to support!

Also mental state. I have a mental condition around anxiety which plays significantly into this area.

But demographics, age, gender , social class, nationality, rural bs urban etc all play a part!

 

[C clearly]

as @trecile says, the research has highlighted the very rare incidents of the past few years

She did?
Where???

I think Peter probably meant @peregrina2000 , not @trecile .

 

[VNwalking]

posts may be guided by previous experience of crime against you. I have had female friends who have been flashed at and treated it relatively ‘mildly’, and a female friend who had previously been subjected toprevious sexual violence who really struggled for a long time.

But demographics, age, gender , social class, nationality, rural bs urban etc all play a part!

Yes to all of this. We've all been conditioned by something. Dependent on that, some people struggle more to regain ease - trauma happens.

And some cultures are more armed and fearful. Generally, European ones are not - so innocent queries from the US can cause quite strong responses. It's hard to stand in each other's shoes when we can't imagine their experiences. In both directions. And it's easy to take offense.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I don’t think this is just about defending the Camino (if at all) but rather that fact that in Europe we don’t carry weapons around because we can - very clearly - see what happens in countries where this is standard. @Robo is spot on, the replies here are pretty obviously divided by where people are from.

Right, I'm very clear on the differences between countries---and your insinuation that carrying pepper spray could only be a uniquely American thing is a clumsy attempt to draw a parallel.

Editing to add, don't assume just because I have a strong opinion, it's because of where I'm from. I'm 1000% for non-violence. I know I'm treading on thin ice as far as forum rules, so I'll stop.

What I take issue with are the unsolicited opinions, which the OP clearly didn't ask for, and the assumption that because she's asking, it's assumed violent and aggressive based on home country.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Weapons are for soldiers and policemen. They have no place among peaceful people. I know of at least four albergues where you cannot stay if you are carrying these dangerous chemicals.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

She did?
Where???

I think Peter probably meant @peregrina2000 , not @trecile .

Indeed!! Thank you for the correction- Now amended

 

[Bristle Boy]

The biggest question I am wrestling with is not concerning pepper spray or, indeed, if it can be purchased on a Sunday.
It is why anyone should waste their time responding to a post submitted by an originator who has absolutely no interest anyway.
This thread is clickbait trolling.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I guess I see ‘pepper spray’ as relatively low level ‘defence’, certainly a world away knives and guns. Others may see it differently. That may be based on demographics.

I think it’s a good debate nonetheless.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Please do tell which Camino you will walk so I can avoid staying in the same places as you.
Even if it is legal that does not mean it is sensible to carry it on a Camino.

Can someone please point out what these are, specifically? I don't see any. Contradictory, perhaps, but nothing rude. Unless anything short of complete agreement is rude.

I personally find the first part of @SabsP comment downright rude. Clearly you don’t.

 

[SabsP]

I personally find the first part of @SabsP comment downright rude. Clearly you don’t.

Thank you for expressing your personal opinion.
You know there is an ignorefunction on this forum?
I use this regularly and it helps quite well in not getting annoyed.

Btw , you should hear the thoughts I keep to myself.

Buen Camino.

 

[sun is shining]

I guess I see ‘pepper spray’ as relatively low level ‘defence’, certainly a world away knives and guns. Others may see it differently. That may be based on demographics.

I think it’s a good debate nonetheless.

We disagree on many points but this is certainly something we see alike (the last sentence of your post, definitely not the low level stuff). This discussion is very fruitful and helps share perspectives - something we all love to do while walking the Camino, so why shouldn’t we do it here (as an extension of the Camino) too.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Weapons are for soldiers and policemen. They have no place among peaceful people. I know of at least four albergues where you cannot stay if you are carrying these dangerous chemicals.

Which I guess this demonstrates how different we all are and have our own world view. As a UK citizen i definately don’t think guns are for policemen or policewomen, as I don’t think many of our officers carry them.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Btw , you should hear the thoughts I keep to myself

Clearly, in this we are alike!

 

[TravellingMan22]

We disagree on many points but this is certainly something we see alike (the last sentence of your post, definitely not the low level stuff). This discussion is very fruitful and helps share perspectives - something we all love to do while walking the Camino, so why shouldn’t we do it here (as an extension of the Camino) too.

Yes agree! Whilst the threads on blisters, ATMs, disposing of waste, and trying to get someone to share a taxi to Sarria have their value I do think threads that lead to robust debate have a higher value. I hope it doesn’t get closed down.

 

[William Garza]

Yes agree! Whilst the threads on blisters, ATMs, disposing of waste, and trying to get someone to share a taxi to Sarria have their value I do think threads that lead to robust debate have a higher value. I hope it doesn’t get closed down.

Robust debate..a beautiful phrase!

 

[William Garza]

Ahb

Ah thank you for those words. Very kind of you. I am fine now thank you and I hope you are getting there too. It’s does wear away after time, and the noise in the night becomes just a noise than imminent danger. But I am careful not to leave my guard down as that can be a weakness of mine. Wishing you all the best.

The Anxiety is the hard part. Having to deal with that constant ache is a pain in rear.

Sleeping is no escape...but life goes on and everyone has their something. Its hard to hear when someone has to feel the need to have a "totem" or semblance of something at hand to feel comfortable enough to go out into the world.

The mistrust in people is hard.. i was/am a trusting person first.. but always having walls up, always defensive and not comfortable in certain environments..that was taken.
I can only imagine the OPs internal dialog at wanting to carry OC spray.

I imagine inside that all the wonderful people here are living breathing examples of the real Culture of the Caminos.

I have to place my faith in these humans as prima facia evidence of the fact...The Camino as a safe and welcoming set of cultural values.

 

[VNwalking]

I personally find the first part of @SabsP comment downright rude. Clearly you don’t.

No, for two reasons - because I'm habituated to direct and unfiltered conversation; and because I share her angst about the presence of pepper spray in a confined space. I wouldn't want to stay in a dorm with someone who had it either - not because of them, but because of thinking what if the spray accidentally went off?

 

[J Willhaus]

We always have a can of bear spray at home when hiking and camping in the area where we live. Wonder if the OP was thinking about the report of aggressive dogs?

 

[Phil W]

We always have a can of bear spray at home when hiking and camping in the area where we live. Wonder if the OP was thinking about the report of aggressive dogs?

As @J Willhaus says, wr have bear spray available when camping or hiking in certain areas due to dangerous wildlife. It is not something we have around or available when at home or in town.

 

[ivar]

As a person who lives in Spain, I know of no one who has bought or has talked about buying pepper spray. I have lived here for 20 years now. I would not buy it if I were you.

If you have read about crimes on the forum, remember that if you have been a victim of a crime, you will most likely share your experience so others can learn about it. If you had a wonderful Camino and nothing happened, you might (or might not) share it. This forum was created in 2004 (20 years ago next year). Millions of pilgrims have walked since then. The forum collects experiences and questions from all of them.

Do as you like, but be careful.

 

[Kohaku]

But the ccamino can be a chance to channel the energy of that in a powerfully different direction - by protecting ourselves in ways that connect rather than ways that isolate.

Yes, my reason for walking the Camino has a lot to do with exposure therapy and not allowing that experience make me forever fearful which is why seeking out pepper spray to have on my walk is not something I personally will do but I respect a persons choice to do so and would not attack them for that choice.

 

[K_Lynn]

We always have a can of bear spray at home when hiking and camping in the area where we live. Wonder if the OP was thinking about the report of aggressive dogs?

This would be the reason for me to carry pepper spray, and I did look up whether it was legal to carry as I was planning on walking from Faro, Portugal this autumn. I tend to pre-panic and research months in advance and then slowly walk myself back from the ledge lol. But for my mostly solitary Camino through farms and rural areas where there would probably be no one around save a cranky farm dog I have considered what I would need. If I do get to walk that particular Camino I doubt if I will carry pepper spray, but I have thought about it.

I have a can of bear spray that I bought 10 years ago for a hike in the Canadian Rockies. The seal has never been broken on it and technically it has expired. I have no idea how I am supposed to safely dispose of it lol.

 

[TrevorH]

This would be the reason for me to carry pepper spray, and I did look up whether it was legal to carry as I was planning on walking from Faro, Portugal this autumn. I tend to pre-panic and research months in advance and then slowly walk myself back from the ledge lol. But for my mostly solitary Camino through farms and rural areas where there would probably be no one around save a cranky farm dog I have considered what I would need. If I do get to walk that particular Camino I doubt if I will carry pepper spray, but I have thought about it.

I have a can of bear spray that I bought 10 years ago for a hike in the Canadian Rockies. The seal has never been broken on it and technically it has expired. I have no idea how I am supposed to safely dispose of it lol.

If you're still in Canada, check the regional waste management sites, but typically it would be: fully empty the canister (point downwind and not near anyone lol) and then household hazardous waste drop off (usually free) rather than recycle

 

[jerbear]

Don't get caught

 

[LeslieHalls]

Can anyone advise where to buy pepper spray in Madrid? Does anyone sell it on a Sunday? Thanks!

I think you may be better off with an axe or a hammer. Carrying this in your hand will show intent and not to be messed with. Actually I think you should stay home.

 

[J Willhaus]

This would be the reason for me to carry pepper spray, and I did look up whether it was legal to carry as I was planning on walking from Faro, Portugal this autumn. I tend to pre-panic and research months in advance and then slowly walk myself back from the ledge lol. But for my mostly solitary Camino through farms and rural areas where there would probably be no one around save a cranky farm dog I have considered what I would need. If I do get to walk that particular Camino I doubt if I will carry pepper spray, but I have thought about it.

I have a can of bear spray that I bought 10 years ago for a hike in the Canadian Rockies. The seal has never been broken on it and technically it has expired. I have no idea how I am supposed to safely dispose of it lol.

You might check with the park service if you live in a bear area. They can use expired ones to have hikers practice with before entering the back country.

 

[trecile]

This thread has prompted some strong feelings which go way beyond the OP's question, and are unlikely to be resolved here. As suggested somewhere above, the OP can probably do a Google search to get their question answered.