Crowd Stuff

[Bob Howard]

There has been some fresh posting in the last few days about the Camino Frances and crowds. I've been a bit of a pain on this topic before, but I've just returned from another walk three weeks ago (I am a Camino Frances repeat offender), so I can't help myself. I left SJPDP on May 23 and arrived July, 1, replicating my 2022 pace based on my posts a few years ago about a slow camino and the in-between places (https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/the-in-between-places.69961/.
I did not personally think it was crowded, but I have to come recognize that my definition of crowded is at odds with many Forum members.

In conversations with maybe a dozen first time Camino Frances walkers, I asked if they would characterize the Camino as crowded. Now, inasmuch as they had no previous experience/reference point, the answers were uniformly "no", although four or five of those mentioned that they had almost changed their plans and not walked the Frances because they had heard that it was too crowded. I asked the source of their too crowded info--it was our Forum. Although I cannot possibly argue with any Forum member who has walked the Frances about whether it is too crowded or not--that is a strictly subjective and personal perception--it is the information and opinions we express to the new Pilgrim for which I am concerned.

On my 2016 June, 2018 June, 2022 July (followed by a return to Leon from SDC to walk the last 200 or so kms again with friends from August 23 to September 9) and my walk this year, I simply did not find it to be too "crowded" on any of those walks. As many have previously posted, assuming one's perception is that it is too crowded, there are strategies to avoid "crowds", like avoiding departing SJPDP on weekends or walking over Spanish holidays as well as overnighting in what has become known as off stage--even leaving later in the morning. Regardless of when you're walking just those factors can change the perception.

So, after that extended intro, here's my point. In late April into early May this year on the Forum there were a couple weeks or so of what I thought was hyperbole if not hysteria about the Frances being too crowded. It arose from a particular confluence of factors revolving around a busier than usual late April as well as the usual early May SJPDP departures and a Spanish holiday. A number of the very experienced among us were suggesting assorted Via de Camino Obscuro alternatives. Maybe good advice for fellow veterans, but, in my opinion, not for the first time Pilgrim whose plans and expectations are based on what they've read and heard about walking the Camino, which is almost always the Camino Frances.

All Forum veterans understand that Sarria to SDC will be busier, and particularly so departing Sarria on Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Although I posted this next comment in a previous thread, let me quote it here, regarding post-Sarria and crowds in general.

"Although there was the usual influx of pilgrims after Sarria, it was not crowded--never saw a traffic jam or a conga line. In one of my new favorite in-between places, Villares de Orbigo (not post-Sarria), I was the only one at the very hospitable and charming Albergue Villares de Orbigo. I did see some rowdy school/church youth groups in Santiago. One day sitting in that outdoor section of the final bar on Rue de Franco (adjacent to Praza de Fonseca) before the entrance to Praza de Obradoiro, a large and very noisy school/church youth group came marching by with banners and flags and in their excitement at being so near started running and cheering towards the Praza. It was highly loud and disruptive . . and it was glorious. At that moment I think I was the only non-Spaniard sitting there. The entire outdoor seating customers burst into applause. Spain. Spaniards. They get it."

September is coming up, and the discussion about crowds will likely heat up again.



"

 

[M2ME]

There has been some fresh posting in the last few days about the Camino Frances and crowds. I've been a bit of a pain on this topic before, but I've just returned from another walk three weeks ago (I am a Camino Frances repeat offender), so I can't help myself. I left SJPDP on May 23 and arrived July, 1, replicating my 2022 pace based on my posts a few years ago about a slow camino and the in-between places (https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/the-in-between-places.69961/.
I did not personally think it was crowded, but I have to come recognize that my definition of crowded is at odds with many Forum members.

In conversations with maybe a dozen first time Camino Frances walkers, I asked if they would characterize the Camino as crowded. Now, inasmuch as they had no previous experience/reference point, the answers were uniformly "no", although four or five of those mentioned that they had almost changed their plans and not walked the Frances because they had heard that it was too crowded. I asked the source of their too crowded info--it was our Forum. Although I cannot possibly argue with any Forum member who has walked the Frances about whether it is too crowded or not--that is a strictly subjective and personal perception, it is the information and opinions we express to the new Pilgrim for which I am concerned.

On my 2016 June, 2018 June, 2022 July (followed by a return to Leon from SDC to walk the last 200 or so kms again with friends from August 23 to September 9) and my walk this year, I simply did not find it to be too "crowded" on any of those walks. As many have previously posted, assuming one's perception is that it is too crowded, there are strategies to avoid "crowds", like avoiding departing SJPDP on weekends or walking over Spanish holidays as well as overnighting in what has become known as off stage--even leaving later in the morning. Regardless of when you're walking just those factors can change the perception.

So, after that extended intro, here's my point. In late April into early May this year on the Forum there were a couple weeks or so of what I thought was hyperbole if not hysteria about the Frances being too crowded. It arose from a particular confluence of factors revolving around a busier than usual late April as well as the usual early May SJPDP departures and a Spanish holiday. A number of the very experienced among us were suggesting assorted Via de Camino Obscuro alternatives. Maybe good advice for fellow veterans, but, in my opinion, not for the first time Pilgrim whose plans and expectations are based on what they're read and heard about walking the Camino, which is almost always the Camino Frances.

All Forum veterans understand that Sarria to SDC will be busier, and particularly so departing Sarria on Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Although I posted this next comment in a previous thread, let me quote it here, regarding post-Sarria:

"Although there was the usually influx of pilgrims after Sarria, it was not crowded--never saw a traffic jam or a conga line. In one of my new favorite in-between places, Villares de Orbigo, I was the only one at the very hospitable and charming Albergue Villares de Orbigo. I did see some rowdy school/church youth groups in Santiago. One day sitting in that outdoor section of the final bar on Rue de Franco (adjacent to Praza de Fonseca) before the entrance to Praza de Obradoiro, a large and very noisy school/church youth group came marching by with banners and flags and in their excitement at being so near started running and cheering towards the Praza. It was highly loud and disruptive . . and it was glorious. At that moment I think I was the only non-Spaniard sitting there. The entire outdoor seating customers burst into applause. Spain. Spaniards. They get it."

September is coming up, and the discussion about crowds will likely heat up again.



"

I walked the Via de La Plata in April and May this year. It was my first Camino. The main reason I chose this Camino was the fact that according to many on this forum it was the least “crowded”. The horror stories of lack of beds, crowds and bed bugs put me off the idea of walking the Frances. All the piligrims I met had completed at least three other Caminos and quite a few were at double digits. Many of these piligrims told me the reason they had chosen the Via de La Plata was because they were “tired“ of the crowds on other Caminos. Something else I noticed in conversation with these pilgrims was their anxiety around the availability of beds. With the exception of the albergue in Salamanca, which was only full by very late in the day, there was always room in every place I stopped along the way. It took a conscious effort on my part to trust that “the Camino would provide“ and not let the anxiety of these seasoned pilgrims turn my Camino into a bed race. I plan on walking the Le Puy via Lourdes to Santiago next year. I’m not naive enough to think that it will be the same experience as this year. Understandably on Caminos with more pilgrims, there can indeed be different challenges. Despite much talk of crowds and bed races, there seem to be very few accounts on this forum of people having to sleep in the streets.
I have read here a few times that we should try not to pack our fears. I feel that should apply to other aspects of our Camino too.

 

[dick bird]

There is an anomaly here, a lot of us have noticed it, so I will try to interpret what I think is going on.

First of all, a shortage of bookable accommodation is not the same as the camino being crowded (even though that seems a reasonable inference to make).

Any shortage is caused when demand exceeds supply, but both the supply and demand are subject to complex influences, e.g:

Bookable accommodation is usually through Booking.com or one of their competitors. They exact a hefty commission, so most hotels who use them keep back some of their rooms for direct bookings, so a hotel that says it is full on the booking app could well have vacant rooms.

Booking.com etc allow cancellation up to 24 hrs in advance. So walkers often book then cancel a day or two before if their plans change. Once again, there may be rooms available but not advertised.

Tour companies cannot always predict demand but need to promise their clients accommodation will be available. So they block-book way in advance. Once again, not all these bookings will be used.

One other point, demographics change and this may lead to a higher proportion of pilgrims who prefer to have their accommodation pre-booked.

In other words, there may be less bookable accommodation available even when the actual number of pilgrims is more or less the same.

This would account for what I saw at first hand last year: reports of accommodation not to be had for love nor money when the albergue I was working in varied from 25 to 66% capacity the whole time I was there.

As for how you feel about excessive numbers of your fellow human beings doing exactly the same thing as you at the same time in the same place, that is entirely a matter of personal taste.

Buen camino, everyone.

 

[good_old_shoes]

Same here. Repeat offender since 2015. And when I read almost hysteric posts about crowds and bed races on the Francés, I usually think "crowds, what crowds? Which bed race are they talking about?".

But I agree that it has a lot to do with the personal view on things and the personal definition of "crowds" and "bed race".

My tolerance for crowds, ugly landscape and not always getting what I want is quite high.

I'm from a densely populated area. I don't have much money so am used to improvise and adapt to not so ideal situations. I've never done any wilderness hikes and prefer walks that lead through civilisation, with villages and towns and yes, people. My first Francés was 2015, so I don't know it in the 10-pilgrims-per-year state it might have been in in 1980. For me the Francés has never felt crowded apart from Sarria-Santiago last year in august (the famous conga line) and San Fermines in Pamplona. And even that didn't put me off the Francés!

But my definition of "crowds" and "bed race" is obviously not the only valid one.

For some it is already crowded if they meet other walkers at all, or more than two per week / day/ whatever.

For some it is already a bed race if they have to walk 6km+ once to the next albergue, or if they can't always get a private room with private bathroom, or if they can't always stay in exactly the place they wanted to stay at, or not being able to find rooms on booking. com., ect.

For others, walking 5-10km+ a few times on a several weeks long walk, would still be considered as totally normal.

So the Francés can be a quiet, relaxed walk through nice landscape for one person, and a hellish bed race through industrial areas, along highways and through crowds for others, at exactly the same time of the year.

I guess as a first time pilgrim you need to make a good guess which category you'll probably fall into when considering which route at what time of the year you want to walk.

 

[Bradypus]

My first Francés was 2015, so I don't know it in the 10-pilgrims-per-year state it might have been in in 1980.

How you understand "crowded" is very subjective. And doesn't entirely depend on when you walked your first Camino. I walked my first Camino in 1990 - the year after @David Tallan walked his first. So our early experiences would be quite similar. But while I do struggle with the large numbers at peak times these days when I read David's recent posts it is very clear that he does not. Perceptions of crowding are probably more to do with individual personalities than simple population density on the ground. And in my case it has very little to do with the "bed race" which I agree is a much misunderstood business.

 

[bullingtonce]

There has been some fresh posting in the last few days about the Camino Frances and crowds. I've been a bit of a pain on this topic before, but I've just returned from another walk three weeks ago (I am a Camino Frances repeat offender), so I can't help myself. I left SJPDP on May 23 and arrived July, 1, replicating my 2022 pace based on my posts a few years ago about a slow camino and the in-between places (https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/the-in-between-places.69961/.
I did not personally think it was crowded, but I have to come recognize that my definition of crowded is at odds with many Forum members.

In conversations with maybe a dozen first time Camino Frances walkers, I asked if they would characterize the Camino as crowded. Now, inasmuch as they had no previous experience/reference point, the answers were uniformly "no", although four or five of those mentioned that they had almost changed their plans and not walked the Frances because they had heard that it was too crowded. I asked the source of their too crowded info--it was our Forum. Although I cannot possibly argue with any Forum member who has walked the Frances about whether it is too crowded or not--that is a strictly subjective and personal perception, it is the information and opinions we express to the new Pilgrim for which I am concerned.

On my 2016 June, 2018 June, 2022 July (followed by a return to Leon from SDC to walk the last 200 or so kms again with friends from August 23 to September 9) and my walk this year, I simply did not find it to be too "crowded" on any of those walks. As many have previously posted, assuming one's perception is that it is too crowded, there are strategies to avoid "crowds", like avoiding departing SJPDP on weekends or walking over Spanish holidays as well as overnighting in what has become known as off stage--even leaving later in the morning. Regardless of when you're walking just those factors can change the perception.

So, after that extended intro, here's my point. In late April into early May this year on the Forum there were a couple weeks or so of what I thought was hyperbole if not hysteria about the Frances being too crowded. It arose from a particular confluence of factors revolving around a busier than usual late April as well as the usual early May SJPDP departures and a Spanish holiday. A number of the very experienced among us were suggesting assorted Via de Camino Obscuro alternatives. Maybe good advice for fellow veterans, but, in my opinion, not for the first time Pilgrim whose plans and expectations are based on what they've read and heard about walking the Camino, which is almost always the Camino Frances.

All Forum veterans understand that Sarria to SDC will be busier, and particularly so departing Sarria on Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Although I posted this next comment in a previous thread, let me quote it here, regarding post-Sarria:

"Although there was the usual influx of pilgrims after Sarria, it was not crowded--never saw a traffic jam or a conga line. In one of my new favorite in-between places, Villares de Orbigo, I was the only one at the very hospitable and charming Albergue Villares de Orbigo. I did see some rowdy school/church youth groups in Santiago. One day sitting in that outdoor section of the final bar on Rue de Franco (adjacent to Praza de Fonseca) before the entrance to Praza de Obradoiro, a large and very noisy school/church youth group came marching by with banners and flags and in their excitement at being so near started running and cheering towards the Praza. It was highly loud and disruptive . . and it was glorious. At that moment I think I was the only non-Spaniard sitting there. The entire outdoor seating customers burst into applause. Spain. Spaniards. They get it."

September is coming up, and the discussion about crowds will likely heat up again.



"

Often but not always, what one perceives is reality when, in fact, it is not reality. If I woke up and found out that the whole world wanted to do the Camino, when of course it would be impossible and create mass chaos, I would be both practically and religiously overjoyed. I recal, somewhere back in time and history ut who knows when, a gentleman managed to feed a very large crowd when his food (fish) and drink (wine)supplies were atrociously low. Somehow it worked out and thank goodness the event was not cancelled because of this. Perhaps he used DoorDash deliveries. Who knows, but sometimes it happens that faith and belief can go a long way during troublesome and challenging times.

 

[J Willhaus]

I did find it very crowded in the morning this summer in late June when I left Sarria, but within an hour all those hundreds and hundreds had passed leaving poor old slow Janet and Phil behind and we were walking virtually alone...the path can also be narrow in spots with the more choice hill climbing footing taken over (especially on that first bit before Barbadello) but after that it quieted down.

It was also crowded first thing in the mornings on that Sarria to Santiago stretch when stopping for the first cafe con leche and tortilla, but again, people dispersed leaving us to bus a few tables in order to find a place to sit...or go on to the next cafe about 50 meters down the path and around the corner...

Of course it was just as crowded when I left SJPDP first thing in the morning in late May 2016, but as people strung out it was quieter.

 

[p3nny]

Six-time repeat offender here.
I walked March 30, 2023 from SJPdP via Valcarlos along with many pilgrims. I worried when told the hospitalero in Valcarlos didn't want to open the second room of bunk beds after I'd arrived late. (He did, and there was plenty of room in the albergue.)

I arrived on a snowy evening at Roncesvalles and got the "last" bed. But they opened the overflow for snow-covered pilgrims arriving behind me.

After an injury that required a doctor's care, I made reservations and used backpack transportation for a few days. Reservations were difficult to make, especially during Easter weekend. Yet, EVERY municipal albergue I stayed at was half to three-quarters occupied. In fact, I scored a bed in Sarria's municipal at 8:45 pm, and there were empty beds around me.

While on the Way, I read many posts on various sites about the over crowding in April and May that I was supposedly experiencing. I'd look around my empty room or half-occupied Muni and think, "Really?"
Reservations were understandably tricky after my Alto de Perdón injury on Easter weekend, but once I was able to take my chances in a town with a municipal, there was NO problem. Available beds. Generous hospitaleros. Warm welcomes. No worries.

 

[C clearly]

There has been some fresh posting in the last few days about the Camino Frances and crowds.

I asked the source of their too crowded info--it was our Forum.

it is the information and opinions we express to the new Pilgrim for which I am concerned.

We do have lots of anxious first-time pilgrims posting questions based on what they "have heard" somewhere. However, if they read the responses to their worried questions, I think they will invariably find that more experienced forum members (including you) very patiently provide very sensible and reassuring advice. This includes informing people about the times and places where choke points might occur, and providing suggestions for how to manage their accommodation, depending on what their personal preferences are.

So the forum may be the "source of their too crowded info" but it is also the source of good information. (Can you point to any threads where this doesn't happen?) However, many people tend to keep their anxieties and proceed with their assumptions no matter what we say.

September is coming up, and the discussion about crowds will likely heat up again.

Yes - sigh. Be prepared!

 

[Bob Howard]

We do have lots of anxious first-time pilgrims posting questions based on what they "have heard" somewhere. However, if they read the responses to their worried questions, I think they will invariably find that more experienced forum members (including you) very patiently provide very sensible and reassuring advice. This includes informing people about the times and places where choke points might occur, and providing suggestions for how to manage their accommodation, depending on what their personal preferences are.

So the forum may be the "source of their too crowded info" but it is also the source of good information. (Can you point to any threads where this doesn't happen?) However, many people tend to keep their anxieties and proceed with their assumptions no matter what we say.


Yes - sigh. Be prepared!

"So the forum may be the "source of their too crowded info" but it is also the source of good information."

Yes, C Clearly, indeed it is the source (encylopediac-like) of good and invaluable information. To mind it is the collective equivalent of the best "guidebooks" but updated in real time. Between the moderators and long-time veterans like Dougfitz (who is relentlessly logical and rational) to name just one--the rest know who you are--it is quite a braintrust. And equally important for me, this Forum is a daily connection for that to which we are drawn. I frequently tell my yet-to-walk friends that talking about the Camino is the next best thing to actually doing it.

 

[trecile]

Here's a thread that I started a few months ago about walking during "crowded" times

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/rethink-how-and-when-you-walk-the-frances-strategies-for-walking-during-busy-times.80519/

 

[geraldkelly]

Random pilgrim: "I chose the Via de la Plata because of the unbelievable overcrowding of the Camino Frances."

Me: "OK, so when did you walk the Camino Frances last?"

Random pilgrim: "Well, actually I've never walked it. But I've read about it online!"

You wouldn't believe how many times I've had this conversation.

 

[M2ME]

Random pilgrim: "I chose the Via de la Plata because of the unbelievable overcrowding of the Camino Frances."

Me: "OK, so when did you walk the Camino Frances last?"

Random pilgrim: "Well, actually I've never walked it. But I've read about it online!"

You wouldn't believe how many times I've had this conversation.

Fair enough.

 

[RRat]

There has been some fresh posting in the last few days about the Camino Frances and crowds. I've been a bit of a pain on this topic before, but I've just returned from another walk three weeks ago (I am a Camino Frances repeat offender), so I can't help myself. I left SJPDP on May 23 and arrived July, 1, replicating my 2022 pace based on my posts a few years ago about a slow camino and the in-between places (https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/the-in-between-places.69961/.
I did not personally think it was crowded, but I have to come recognize that my definition of crowded is at odds with many Forum members.

In conversations with maybe a dozen first time Camino Frances walkers, I asked if they would characterize the Camino as crowded. Now, inasmuch as they had no previous experience/reference point, the answers were uniformly "no", although four or five of those mentioned that they had almost changed their plans and not walked the Frances because they had heard that it was too crowded. I asked the source of their too crowded info--it was our Forum. Although I cannot possibly argue with any Forum member who has walked the Frances about whether it is too crowded or not--that is a strictly subjective and personal perception--it is the information and opinions we express to the new Pilgrim for which I am concerned.

On my 2016 June, 2018 June, 2022 July (followed by a return to Leon from SDC to walk the last 200 or so kms again with friends from August 23 to September 9) and my walk this year, I simply did not find it to be too "crowded" on any of those walks. As many have previously posted, assuming one's perception is that it is too crowded, there are strategies to avoid "crowds", like avoiding departing SJPDP on weekends or walking over Spanish holidays as well as overnighting in what has become known as off stage--even leaving later in the morning. Regardless of when you're walking just those factors can change the perception.

So, after that extended intro, here's my point. In late April into early May this year on the Forum there were a couple weeks or so of what I thought was hyperbole if not hysteria about the Frances being too crowded. It arose from a particular confluence of factors revolving around a busier than usual late April as well as the usual early May SJPDP departures and a Spanish holiday. A number of the very experienced among us were suggesting assorted Via de Camino Obscuro alternatives. Maybe good advice for fellow veterans, but, in my opinion, not for the first time Pilgrim whose plans and expectations are based on what they've read and heard about walking the Camino, which is almost always the Camino Frances.

All Forum veterans understand that Sarria to SDC will be busier, and particularly so departing Sarria on Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Although I posted this next comment in a previous thread, let me quote it here, regarding post-Sarria and crowds in general.

"Although there was the usual influx of pilgrims after Sarria, it was not crowded--never saw a traffic jam or a conga line. In one of my new favorite in-between places, Villares de Orbigo (not post-Sarria), I was the only one at the very hospitable and charming Albergue Villares de Orbigo. I did see some rowdy school/church youth groups in Santiago. One day sitting in that outdoor section of the final bar on Rue de Franco (adjacent to Praza de Fonseca) before the entrance to Praza de Obradoiro, a large and very noisy school/church youth group came marching by with banners and flags and in their excitement at being so near started running and cheering towards the Praza. It was highly loud and disruptive . . and it was glorious. At that moment I think I was the only non-Spaniard sitting there. The entire outdoor seating customers burst into applause. Spain. Spaniards. They get it."

September is coming up, and the discussion about crowds will likely heat up again.



"

SJPDP to Santiago, twice for me. Sep/Oct, and May/June. Walking is not crowded but accommodations can be an issue. Availability from SJPDP and then the next two days can be an issue. It takes a day or two for the wave to dissipate. If you find yourself in an area where tour busses are staging there will be a smaller wave and this can be anywhere. Lodging can be problematic if tour providers have selected that town as a tour stop. I was in a small town with four albergues. The tour group reserved two of them in advance. The left two to accept the typical number of individual walkers. Which they couldn't handle. Municipal was full by 1 PM. The other full minutes later. The other issue is individuals using apps to make reservations. So arriving early does not guarantee availability. And to make it worse are the no shows. Some are understandable no shows. But some are making multiple reservations and at €15 no big issue with being a no show.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

I start my walk in a few days, Sarria to Santiago, and will be happy to have the company. While I’m sure this little stretch is a cakewalk for most of you, it won’t be for me, and I’m looking forward to (hopefully) enjoying some of the camaraderie and encouragement I’ve heard so much about.

 

[C clearly]

While I’m sure this little stretch is a cakewalk for most of you

For the vast majority of us, no Camino is a cakewalk! I am always tired after my day of walking, and at the end of the Camino. It just doesn't surprise me any more - I know to expect it and manage. .

I'm sure that you will struggle somewhat, but also really enjoy the experience. Buen Camino!

 

[trecile]

I start my walk in a few days, Sarria to Santiago, and will be happy to have the company. While I’m sure this little stretch is a cakewalk for most of you, it won’t be for me, and I’m looking forward to (hopefully) enjoying some of the camaraderie and encouragement I’ve heard so much about.

I'm sure that you will. I joined the Francés in Melide from the Primitivo in June. The excitement and joy of the pilgrims that I met who had started in Sarria was palpable.

 

[henrythedog]

We’re all ‘pining for the fjords’ (apart from @alexwalker who lives on one, the lucky man) and harking back to half-remembered days of near-empty albergues; menús for €6 and clear skies with a light breeze.