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€5 to visit Leon's cathedral

sillydoll

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Time of past OR future Camino
2002 CF: 2004 from Paris: 2006 VF: 2007 CF: 2009 Aragones, Ingles, Finisterre: 2011 X 2 on CF: 2013 'Caracoles': 2014 CF and Ingles 'Caracoles":2015 Logrono-Burgos (Hospitalero San Anton): 2016 La Douay to Aosta/San Gimignano to Rome:
From March this year the Catedral De Santa Maria De Regla De Leon started charging a €5 entrance fee. This will go a long way to cover the enormous costs of renovation and restoration to save the cathedral from collapsing.
In 2007 we stayed up until midnight when they switch the lights off in the square and the lights on in the cathedral. It wasn't as dramatic as we thought it would be, mainly because the windows were so grimy. Now that they are all being cleaned, it should be a spectacular sight - if they are still doing it. I've emailed the cathedral but am still waiting for a reply.
 
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The first edition came out in 2003 and has become the go-to-guide for many pilgrims over the years. It is shipping with a Pilgrim Passport (Credential) from the cathedral in Santiago de Compostela.
I understand the reason behind the fee...but....5 euro is a lot of money to many pilgrims.
It is kind of sad to know that many will miss seeing the Cathedral.
Too bad they could not have worked out a "special" for those with Pilgrim Credentials.
 
I was only charged 4E. I asked about a pilgrim rate, and the clerk asked for my credential, which was back in the hostal. Then I asked about a senior rate, and got the discount. The senior discount is official; the pilgrim rate offering may just have been a courtesy, since it is not listed. The cathedral spent decades trying make ends meet without a fee. It didn't work, so everyone pays now. There was scaffolding everywhere in March. The stained glass windows are notable, but the rest is "just another cathedral!" :D

A UNESCO World Heritage cathedral "just another cathedral" however...
 

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There are now two entrances to the cathedral -- left door takes you down the left side of the cathedral via a roped off path to the chapel where mass is said. No charge for going to mass. Right door is the 5 euro charge. When I was in the cathedral in June, I noticed that a not insignificant number of people who entered the left door ducked under the rope and cheated the Cathedral out of their 5 euros. I have to say that based on their garb, most of the scofflaws looked like pilgrims. 5 euros may be a lot for some pilgrims, but it is a trivial part of the millions of euros necessary to maintain the cathedral. Pilgrims seem like one group that benefits the most from its presence. Half the cost of an average meal seems fair to me.
 
It is a similar situation at the Burgos Cathedral which also is a UNESCO site. To worship you enter freely via the west facade through the southwest corner door and have access to only a small area and two chapels within the vast edifice. For worship the hours are 8:30 to 13:30 and 16:30 to 20:00. For tourism you purchase an entrance ticket at the Reception area on the Plaza de Santa María ie the south-side of the cathedral. This gives access to all the major interior chapels as well as to the extensive cathedral museum. Here you can also obtain a stamp for your pilgrim credential. Pilgrim tickets (show your credential) are less expensive than regular. Reception is open 9:30 to 19:30 until October 31; 10:00 to 19:00 from November until March. Tel.947 204 712.

Margaret
 
I get a bit bolshy when it comes to charging to get into churches. I appreciate that for some it's a tourist experience more than a religious one, but a church should never be closed to anyone (and I accept that it sounds like you can still get into these cathedrals without paying if you're attending services). Jesus was a pretty mild mannered man and the only time he got violent was for turning the temple into a market. They can be more imaginative in their fundraising than just asking for cash to walk through the door. Sorry if I offend anyone, but it's a strongly held opinion. :evil:

Buen Camino!
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
I can understand the need and demand to support a building which has withstood the buffetings of history since the building was commenced in the mid 13th century and completed somewhere at the end of the 16th. It is so much more than a church/cathedral and should not be defined only in such terms. The building is an exemplary manifestation of Gothic architecture, of medieval art, and the human aspiration to raise above the mundane, the commercial, the ordinary. One who ventures within unprepared will be overwhelmed by the beauty, the richness, and the ornate, overwhelmed does not mean positively or negatively but simply overwhelmed. The Spanish have realized the spiritual needs of those visiting the cathedral so if that's the reason you visit, its free. Before you plunk your money down, do bring along a good guide say "The Pilgrimage Road to Santiago" by Gitlitz and Davidson which will take you through the cathedral, its chapels and art and will give depth to your visit and meaning, something much more beyond the sensory stimulation of a ride on a roller coaster.
PS Roller coasters and ferris wheels cost more, are finished faster, and quickly forgotten. A visit to the Leon Cathedral lasts forever, 5 Euro is cheap.
 
tyrrek said:
I get a bit bolshy when it comes to charging to get into churches. I appreciate that for some it's a tourist experience more than a religious one, but a church should never be closed to anyone (and I accept that it sounds like you can still get into these cathedrals without paying if you're attending services). Jesus was a pretty mild mannered man and the only time he got violent was for turning the temple into a market. They can be more imaginative in their fundraising than just asking for cash to walk through the door. Sorry if I offend anyone, but it's a strongly held opinion. :evil:
Buen Camino!

Quite right! And that's why in these cathedrals there is always access to areas for services, worship, prayer and reflection free of charge. The law of the Catholic Church (Code of Canon law 1221) prohibits charging money for entry for worship.
 
I also get a little upset, not with magnificent churches charging a fee but with pilgrims who seem to think that they are somehow entitled to free or discounted charges. If you can't afford or don't want to pay for admission to something just keep walking. If you are so poor that you can't afford a few euro for admissions maybe you should delay your trip until you are better able to afford it.
 
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jeff001 said:
I also get a little upset, not with magnificent churches charging a fee but with pilgrims who seem to think that they are somehow entitled to free or discounted charges. If you can't afford or don't want to pay for admission to something just keep walking. If you are so poor that you can't afford a few euro for admissions maybe you should delay your trip until you are better able to afford it.

Amen.

Even the term "pilgrim" gets loosely applied. Many times, and with the exception of my first Camino I include myself in this, the Camino is more a low cost backpacking holiday than it is a pilgrimage. Not that there is anything wrong with this, but there really is a difference.
 
C'mon. They really need the money. :D
Spain’s recession worsened in the second quarter as the government’s austerity push to reduce the euro area’s third-biggest budget deficit and a slump in consumer spending offset growth in exports.

Gross domestic product fell 0.4 percent from the previous quarter, when it declined 0.3 percent, the Madrid-based National Statistics Institute said today. That’s in line with an estimate published July 30. Separately, Spain’s borrowing costs fell to the lowest in three months at an auction today after the nation’s bonds rallied this month on optimism the European Central Bank will agree on a plan to help peripheral nations.

Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy last month gave up on his forecast for a return to growth in 2013 as he unveiled budget cuts that will expand austerity measures to a total of 15 percent of annual GDP by 2014. He is due to host European Union President Herman Van Rompuy today for the first in a series of meetings aimed at solving the nation’s funding issues.

“We fear that things are likely to get worse before they get better,” said Martin van Vliet, an economist at ING Bank in Amsterdam, who expects Spain will seek additional financial aid as early as next month. “With much more fiscal austerity in the pipeline and unemployment at astronomic highs, the risks are clearly tilted toward a more protracted recession.”

Separate data today from the ECB showed that private-sector deposits at Spanish banks fell by a record in July, dropping 74.2 billion euros ($93 billion), or 4.7 percent, to 1.51 trillion euros. That’s the biggest decline since at least 1997, when the ECB’s data series started.

Domestic Demand

The Spanish GDP report showed that consumer spending dropped 1 percent in the second quarter, investment dropped 3 percent and government spending declined 0.7 percent. Exports of goods and services rose 1.6 percent. The economy grew 0.4 percent last year, less than the 0.7 percent initially stated, the statistics agency said. The 2010 contraction was 0.3 percent, revised from 0.1 percent.

Deputy Economy Minister Fernando Jimenez Latorre said it is too early to tell whether the revision will impact the nation’s deficit goals. He also said the economy is in its worst phase.

“We are in the moment of steepest fall and it will surely continue in the second half of this year,” he said. “We will see a correction starting in the first quarters of next year.”

Debt Auction

The yield on Spain’s 10-year benchmark bond rose 2 basis points to 6.41 percent as of 11:55 a.m. in Madrid. The yield has fallen since reaching a record of 7.75 percent on July 25 after ECB President Mario Draghi said the central bank may intervene to curb governments’ borrowing costs and win them time to implement fiscal changes.

The ECB said today that Draghi has canceled his trip to the annual Jackson Hole economic symposium later this week due to his busy workload.

Spain’s Treasury sold 3.6 billion euros ($4.5 billion) of bills, more than the 3.5 billion euros sought. The yield for three-month bills fell to 0.946 percent from 2.434 percent at the last sale on July 24. That’s the least paid for three month bills at auction since May 22. The rate on the six-month bills fell to 2.026 percent from 3.691 percent last month.

Italy also saw its borrowing costs drop at an auction today when it sold zero-coupon and inflation-linked bonds.

Public finance figures due Aug. 31 may show Spain is struggling to cut its deficit to 6.3 percent of GDP this year and reach the EU limit of 3 percent of GDP in 2014. Economists forecast that the economy will shrink 1.6 percent this year and 0.9 percent in 2013 according to the median forecast of 30 economists surveyed by Bloomberg News.
 
falcon269 said:
C'mon. They really need the money..

So true. And although it is always a welcome, this is all the more reason why we shouldn't feel entitled to free or discounted services. Where else in the world can we get so much for so little and isn't that a primary reason why many of us return again and again?
 
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jeff001 said:
I also get a little upset, not with magnificent churches charging a fee but with pilgrims who seem to think that they are somehow entitled to free or discounted charges. If you can't afford or don't want to pay for admission to something just keep walking. If you are so poor that you can't afford a few euro for admissions maybe you should delay your trip until you are better able to afford it.
I can see where you and others are coming from. Yes, these great cathedrals and many churches are short of cash and it's important that they are maintained.

I just believe that anyone should be allowed to walk into any church without being charged as a point of principle. It's not that I don't have the money or was unprepared to leave a donation. I just object to the blunt '5 Euros to get in' that I got in Burgos. I just refused, so I didn't go in on my first Camino (I gave in on my second, I admit! :shock: ).

Once in there, it's fine to encourage people to be a 'Friend of the Cathedral' or whatever for 10 Euros if they wish to do so. Johnniewalker posted the fantastic lights display in Santiago for St James' Day, which celebrated the cathedral's central role in the city. Events like that make locals and visitors alike appreciate what they have a bit more.

Sorry for being mildly political, but in the middle ages they could afford to build these magnificent buildings (OK I'm sure ordinary people paid the price in taxes etc). In modern times it seems we can't even afford to maintain them without them potentially losing their integrity.

Imagination required.

Buen Camino!
 
While I understand jeff001's point of view and have a lot of sympathy for it, we can't have everything. Churches are there to house worship and in both Burgos and Leon, there is no charge for anyone going to services. Certainly, in Burgos, they had a chapel available for use outside service hours, so those who desire a space for private meditation or spiritual down time don't pay entrance for that either.

Most other visitors are tourists, or admirers of art and architecture or students of history. While I would rather that they enter without charges, I really can't get upset if they are. So much on the Camino is a gift that I don't begrudge a donativo or a minor admission charge.

The Spanish state, as far as I know, no longer subsidizes cathedrals (although some churches, as in San Juan de Ortega and San Isidoro in Leon, are able to obtain significiant sums from Europe) and the costs of maintenance of older buildings is likely well beyond the means of the church in Spain (in Québec, if it were not for subsidies to keep the roof on older churches, likely a quarter of them would have to close). In my pre-retirement life, I used to annoy my managers by telling them that Marx was right on one topic-- it's about the money, and if we want certain things around, we will have to pay for them.
 
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oursonpolaire said:
Sorry for the double post, but I meant Tyrrek's perspective in my opening line.
Yep, it was me! Ha ha! As I said before it's really difficult to get the balance right. Maybe it's a case of communication. I don't know the solution, but I know that I was offended by being charged to enter a cathedral along the Camino as a pilgrim with a credencial full of stamps. Just to walk through the door. What exactly is the cathedral there for? Buen Camino!
 
There appear to be two issues here; one the fee that the Cathedral charges, the other the sense that we as pilgrims should be entitled to some sort of preferential treatment.

I’ll address the later with an experience that I had along the Camino. I believe, certainly at least hope, that it was a rare anomaly.

One morning while with a group of people leaving a donative Albergue in Acebo, some were dropping a donation in the box on the table near the door. One person remarked that, unfortunately, they were not in a financial position to leave anything. In fact they stated that due to a lack of funds they had been seeking out donative albergues in which to stay. OK I thought - to each according to… No one appeared to be judging who was doing what. This person just blurted out the statement for all to hear.

(As an aside, there were several vocal French Canadians who said they were refusing to leave any donation because they didn't like the European hospitalero. For purposes of promoting community during the previous evening's communal dinner he asked that conversations be conducted in English given that eveyone there spoke and understood that language. Although they were fluent in English, the Canadians contended that he was the worst hospitalero and for some reason just didn't like French Canadians. Why shouldn't they speak French if they wanted to. Oh and they were expresing all of this in English for all to hear. Guess that was enough for them to justify their free stay.)

After arriving in Santiago I bumped into that same person who left nothing in the box. Just to make small talk I enquired where they were staying in Santiago. The reply, “I have two days in Santiago so I thought I should treat myself. I’m at the Hotel San Francisco. I deserve it”. For those who may not know, this is one of the pricier luxury hotels in the city.

I am one who sometimes - well maybe all too often - cannot hold back and just keep my thoughts to myself so I said: “In Acebo you said you had limited funds, isn’t that hotel expensive? “ The reply: “Well a while before Acebo I splurged for a night in the Parador in Leon so I had to be careful with my money.”

I was flabbergasted. I just walked away speechless, trying not to be judgmental. Oh but I did judge, and not very kindly. Couldn’t help it.

Most are grateful for any special discount and consideration along the way. However carrying the label of “pilgrim” and walking the Camino in my opinion should not entitle anyone to expect any sort of special consideration. I do recognize that this was an extreme instance. However I have to say that I observed other minor instances of “pilgrim entitlement expectations” along the way. Fortunately they were far outnumbered by the overwhelming appreciation that many expressed for all of the generosities so often exhibited in so many ways.
 
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Yes, I agree that we come across people with different attitudes to our own. It can be frustrating, whether it's down to language, albergue etiquette, etc etc.

I just want to stress that I don't expect any special treatment as a pilgrim. I just thing that ANY member of the public should be able to enter a church without paying. If a coach tour is making money out of it, there's an argument for saying that they should pay something back, but in return for something such as a guide, membership of some supporters group etc or at least be strongly encouraged to leave a donation.

As I said before I don't have the solution, but surely turning any pilgs away from a cathedral on the route has got to be wrong! As John noted before we can still get in for services free, so it's not the end of the world anyway. I do think pilgs should have some priority at the pilgrims' service in SdC but that's a different issue!

Buen Camino!
 
No one should be excluded from any service, pilgrim or not. For many it SdeC it is their church.
Also maybe that 'tourist' will be next year's pilgrim. We were tourists once and attended the Pilgrims' Mass, which inspired us to walk the Camino ourselves.
 
Tia Valeria said:
No one should be excluded from any service, pilgrim or not. For many it SdeC it is their church.
Also maybe that 'tourist' will be next year's pilgrim. We were tourists once and attended the Pilgrims' Mass, which inspired us to walk the Camino ourselves.
Totally agree. I was thinking in terms of an area being sectioned off depending on the number of pilgrims who arrived the day before. The rest open to everyone, though. Buen Camino!
 
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Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. For me it is the mix of folk, all in together that helps to make the service so moving. Last year we were next to a local nun. This year with fellow pilgrims and others. Three years ago with pilgrims and locals celebrating Pentecost.

However we stray from the original subject. Somehow paying to enter a house of prayer changes its atmosphere, even if a section is kept for prayer. Our own cathedral in the UK has lost something since it started charging, even though church members resident in the diocese can register to go in free.
 
Tyrrek,

The cathedral, any cathedral, belongs to the diocese of which it is the center. Pilgrims, by definition, are just people passing through. When I passed through Leon last year, I don't think I had to pay to get in to the cathedral, but I do remember having to pay to get in the museum portion - and I did so gladly.

I am an Anglican parish priest in the US - the Anglican church is not established here as it is in England. If my people do not contribute freely, the work of the parish, including our building, will fall to the ground. Somebody has to pay for the repairs and the maintenance.

I think you have it skewed just a bit. When you get right down to it, anyone not a member of the local congregation is only a guest, at best. I am grateful for all of the generosity and hospitality extended to me all along the camino. And while I would want to be able to see the interior of churches all along the camino free of charge - if it helps preserve the great ones, I will be glad to contribute.

What I did find on the Camino at every church I visited was freedom to worship there - always there was a place to pray. Sometimes great care was taken to ensure that quiet and reverence were preserved. And I appreciated that in many many churches a pilgrim's Mass was offered at a time convenient to us who were walking. And over and over again I found parish priests were on the job for our benefit.

I will also observe that I frequently was asked to contribute to the upkeep in Cathedrals all over England where the Church is established. You have to pay a couple of quid to see the inside of St. Paul's in London if you are not there for a service. It takes a boatload of money to offset the effects of gravity.
 
PadreQ said:
Tyrrek,

The cathedral, any cathedral, belongs to the diocese of which it is the center. Pilgrims, by definition, are just people passing through...
Thanks for your thoughts PadreQ. I think mine have been misinterpreted as 'pilgrims should get special rights' or similar, which is not what I said. I'm obviously not very good at argument! I am happy to pay some money during a visit because I understand the pressures but as a principle I don't like to spend it just to get in. The church is a place of refuge and sanctuary for people in the worst of circumstances. Buen Camino!
 
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Very large building, erected and financed by the exploitation and taxation of the labouring classes, deprived of its income from its estates and bonded peasantry requires regular cash income from passing pilgrims. Sounds like a thousand years of ingrained habit to me. Perhaps they should let parts of it out for weddings and such like the stately homes of England. (Oops, I guess they're at that already...)

I will pay the going price to experience the spectacle that is St Paul's, Chartres, Rouen, Leon and even the Vatican. But I will pray where my god will hear me - not in the temples of man.
 

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