- Time of past OR future Camino
- Too many and too often!
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Also claimed to have been in Santiago amongst many other places. Joining the dots between all the places which have claimed possession over the years might make an interestingly themed pilgrimage routed by a French pelerin who told me LePuy was the site of the Holy Prepuce!!
Also claimed to have been in Santiago amongst many other places.
And of course that urban myth that there are enough fragments of the true cross to build an exact scale replica of the Ark found support when it was established that most saints had 20 fingers and most apostles at least two skulls.
There's a stone in my garden that I talk to when I want to. It isn't Earth, it doesn't even symbolise Earth. It isn't holy, or sacred. It doesn't have any magical powers. It won't grant wishes or offer guidance but it helps me focus my thoughts. Anyone who wants to visit is welcome. There are no prizes.
Santo Domingo, the road builder. Now there was a good guy. I bump fist with him every time I pass that statue down by the river and I offer up thanks to that builder of bridges at his tomb on my way. I guess I still wont get any plenary indulgence but I feel pretty indulged anyways
The Pope has declared that those who visit the tomb of Santo Domingo de la Calzada during the next 7 years will receive a plenary indulgence if they also fulfil the usual conditions of making a sacramental confession, receiving communion and praying for the Pope's intentions. An extension to the Jubilee year events for the saint.
Por los próximos 7 años se podrá ganar Indulgencia Plenaria en la tumba de Santo Domingo de la Calzada, España | Gaudium Press Español
La Rioja (Jueves, 27-02-2020, Gaudium Press) La Iglesia en La Rioja, España, ha comunicado que el papa Francisco concederá la Indulgenciaes.gaudiumpress.org
Given the conditions, yes, and if not, no.Does this require one to be Catholic? If not, is the indulgence purported to be of any benefit to non-catholics?
Yes Annie it is as well as the continuing spirit of the roosters. The cathedral where St Dominic is buried is also famous for a Gothic chicken coop! In this colorful cage within the sanctuary a live cock and hen are kept in memory of a local legend involving a pilgrim and an innkeeper’s daughter. The birds are changed periodically; hearing them crow is said to bring pilgrims good luck.Is the tomb in Sto. Domingo del Calzada?
Yes Annie it is as well as the continuing spirit of the roosters. The cathedral where St Dominic is buried is also famous for a Gothic chicken coop! In this colorful cage within the sanctuary a live cock and hen are kept in memory of a local legend involving a pilgrim and an innkeeper’s daughter. The birds are changed periodically; hearing them crow is said to bring pilgrims good luck.
Read more re this legend in
I'd pay good money for a comprehensive guide to the Camino's relics (claimed relics?) but know of none.
Does this require one to be Catholic?
If not, is the indulgence purported to be of any benefit to non-catholics?
The perception of faith these days is not the same as in the Middle Ages where seeing and touching and being in the close vicinity of material remains was so important that people travelled long distances.
The discussion can obviously wander in all directions but 5 of the destinations in the list are Marian destinations so no material remains there while my comments referred to a person who is in fact or is believed to be (I didn't check) buried in the tomb inside the cathedral.7 of the above are on the Camino de Santiago and/or Way to Rome and/or Way to Jerusalem. So I'd say our perceptions have not changed that much, nor our desire to travel long distances to go and see and touch.
And you couldn't get a plenary indulgence anytime anywhere in Europe then but you can now.
When I wrote "then" and "now" I meant then=Middle Ages and now=1968-2020.Quote: And you couldn't get a plenary indulgence anytime anywhere in Europe then but you can now.That simply isn't true.
How one forgets things to which one doesn't attribute much importanceI don’t even remember whether we paid an entrance fee or not in the Cathedral of Santo Domingo de la Calzada
When I wrote "then" and "now" I meant then=Middle Ages and now=1968-2020.
For me, the NY article provides part of the answer
Not to nitpick at all and hopefully this will bring some clarity about the "Our Lady of Guadalupe" pilgrimage in Mexico City. I live in Mexico and am married to a Mexican woman. She, as virtually every Mexican I know has at least one or two paintings, statues, whatever of the Virgin. As I sit here this morning in my house with my wife and a 4 of her friends. They are just yapping it up next to me, I told them that you had listed the "long distance pilgrimages" around the world. Since my knowledge of the Catholic religion is about as extensive as as the length of a sneeze, I can only assume your listings were just of places peopled traveled to and not necessarily by walking. When I showed them the list they were as I suspected very excited and proud. Mexican people are fiercely proud of their history, culture, music and well all things Mexican. When they saw you calling it "Our Lady of Guadalupe" I chuckled a little waiting to hear what my wife and her friends would say when they read this. They immediately got a little angry because she is "The VIrgin" and "My VIrgin". Most people (at least among the people I know) have an intensely personal relationship with the VIrgin. Much more so than even Jesus and probably the equal to God. Their next reaction was GRINGO, and then they said I should correct you that she is the VIrgin of Guadalupe and the Pilgrimage is celebrated on December 12th it is when the Virgin first appeared at the Basilica. This is referred to as the "Perigrinacion a la Basilica de Guadalupe" I asked them how many people attended yearly and of course they said millions. They looked it up on Spanish language websites and according to the National Geographic Spanish website and other sites in 2017 a record was set with 7,280,000 pilgrim. They tell me it is impossible to know how many people actually walk to the Basilica from near and far and how many drive or take public transportation or walk part of the way just within Mexico City. The only reason I am writing this is that they wanted everyone to know most importantly that saying "Our Lady" is not in any way the name of the Virgin. I never knew until a few years after living in Mexico how important and deeply loved and engrained the Virgin is in the daily lives of a large majority fo Mexican people. I am sure you are forgiven and will be welcomed here in Mexico if you already aren't here!!! This wasn't my idea to write. For the stability of my marriage and my personal health and safety I was compelled to say something.So at each Mass at every Catholic church then, given that all altars are built upon their particular reliquaries ...
As for long distances ...
20 million pilgrims/year – Our Lady of Guadalupe, Mexico
6 million pilgrims – Western Wall, Jerusalem
4-5 million pilgrims – Fatima
4 million pilgrims – Lourdes
4 million pilgrims – Rome
1 million pilgrims – World Youth Day
1 million pilgrims – La Morenata (Black Madonna) Shrine Montserrat
1 million pilgrims – El Rocio , Cadiz
1 million pilgrims – Church of the Holy Sepulchre , Jerusalem
etc etc
7 of the above are on the Camino de Santiago and/or Way to Rome and/or Way to Jerusalem.
So I'd say our perceptions have not changed that much, nor our desire to travel long distances to go and see and touch.
Surely any such list would have to start with Roncesvalles. @rappahannock_rev, if you haven't seen this yet (you read Spanish, don't you?) have a look atI'd pay good money for a comprehensive guide to the Camino's relics (claimed relics?) but know of none.
Surely any such list would have to start with Roncesvalles. @rappahannock_rev, if you haven't seen this yet (you read Spanish, don't you?) have a look at
LAS RELIQUIAS DEL AJEDREZ DE CARLOMAGNO
Un blog para visitar Roncesvalles y conocer la historia oculta de su orden y el hospital de peregrinos del Camino de Santiagoroncesvallesorreaga.blogspot.com
Their next reaction was GRINGO, and then they said I should correct you that she is the VIrgin of Guadalupe and the Pilgrimage is celebrated on December 12th it is when the Virgin first appeared at the Basilica. This is referred to as the "Perigrinacion a la Basilica de Guadalupe" I asked them how many people attended yearly and of course they said millions. They looked it up on Spanish language websites and according to the National Geographic Spanish website and other sites in 2017 a record was set with 7,280,000 pilgrim. They tell me it is impossible to know how many people actually walk to the Basilica from near and far and how many drive or take public transportation or walk part of the way just within Mexico City.
The only reason I am writing this is that they wanted everyone to know most importantly that saying "Our Lady" is not in any way the name of the Virgin.
I never knew until a few years after living in Mexico how important and deeply loved and engrained the Virgin is in the daily lives of a large majority for Mexican people.
she is "The VIrgin" and "My VIrgin". Most people (at least among the people I know) have an intensely personal relationship with the VIrgin. Much more so than even Jesus and probably the equal to God.
I feel that I often fail in making clear what interests me: it’s what makes people “tick”, both in the distant past and now. I like to understand it. Not one person in particular but groups of persons. That’s what I found interesting about the article, it expressed that for me. It didn’t matter whether central basics were wrong or not. What mattered is what they thought, what their views are and what their past experience was that led to that thinking.The fact that the article gets some central basics so wrong does not motivate me to seek therein for answers.
So at each Mass at every Catholic church then, given that all altars are built upon their particular reliquaries ...
As for long distances ...
20 million pilgrims/year – Our Lady of Guadalupe, Mexico
6 million pilgrims – Western Wall, Jerusalem
4-5 million pilgrims – Fatima
4 million pilgrims – Lourdes
4 million pilgrims – Rome
1 million pilgrims – World Youth Day
1 million pilgrims – La Morenata (Black Madonna) Shrine Montserrat
1 million pilgrims – El Rocio , Cadiz
Very pretty area now. I was an English Teacher for 3 years in DF. 4 days a week I had a 7AM class in Lomas at the Rubbermaid headquarters. I used to take my full backpack on the bus at 6AM by the Chapultepec bus area. I would take a pesero to my class. It took about a week or two before someone asked me about my backpack. I told them I was going to walk on the Camino de Santiago from Le Puy to Santiago, About half my students had heard of it. I told them to train I was walking back from the office to my home which was around the corner from Metro Sevilla. Very close to Parque Chapultepec. They were amazed! But my training was also great for class we had some good lessons about health, training, history and the Camino because of this.Spent most of my teenage years (back in the '60s) living happily in the Lomas de Chapultepec -- and that was certainly the case back then! ...
Have fond and vivid memories of visiting Guadalupe. Saw people crawling on their knees to the shrine, something I've never seen done at Santiago, Lourdes, Rome, etc.
I have really enjoyed this thread and learned. Even the simple conversation of the name of the Virgin brings up very intense feelings, love and emotions.Long distance pilgrimages do not require walking. (though it's best when they do it anyway)
Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe,
Madrecita del Divino Niño Jesús,
ruega por nosotros Santa Madre de Dios,
para que logremos alcanzar
la Divina Misericordia
de Nuestro Señor Jesucristo.
Amen
Her blessed name is Saint Mary, the Holy Mother of God.
As she is here ... ❤
In the back streets of Bethlehem I could have bought a complete set of Joseph’s chisels for a knock-down price and hundreds of original crowns of thorns. I actually brought one back for my mother but found it impossible to do what she suggested with it.
My best souvenir of the holy (to some) land were some olives from a 1000+ year old tree in the garden of gesthemene, so possibly only a couple of generations removed from the time of the New Testament. They germinated.
The good thing about rocks is they accept you as you are and rarely criticise. They make ents appear frivolous.
I somewhat doubt that the occasions for receiving indulgences were lesser in the Middle Ages when the whole scandal about them being handed out like fortune cookies erupted, than in the 20th & 21st Centuries.
The fact that the article gets some central basics so wrong does not motivate me to seek therein for answers.
But this is case in point regarding my earlier comment that these questions are contentious.
Participants in the Crusades.
That would be Barcelos, on the Central Route north of Porto on the way to Santiago. The Portuguese have taken that legend and run with it, making the rooster of Barcelos a national symbol. You can find them in souvenir shops across the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooster_of_BarcelosThere is a town in Portugal that lays claim to the same chicken legend...
Simultaneous miracles?
Is there not a similar claim about a chicken in Barcelos in Portugal? Barcelos is on the Portuguese Camino and I spent a pleasant day there and attended a Pilgrims mass there.Yes Annie it is as well as the continuing spirit of the roosters. The cathedral where St Dominic is buried is also famous for a Gothic chicken coop! In this colorful cage within the sanctuary a live cock and hen are kept in memory of a local legend involving a pilgrim and an innkeeper’s daughter. The birds are changed periodically; hearing them crow is said to bring pilgrims good luck.
Actually, I was asking directions (in Spanish--I'm bilingual) to a church in a small town in Queretaro state (Mexico) a few years ago. I used the formal name of the church, Our Lady of Guadalupe ______________ (cannot remember). The helpful young women looked at each other kind of quizzically and then one of them said, "Oh, you mean La Lupe," and told me where to turn and how many blocks. Their attitude was as if they were talking about the house of a friend, who would be happy to see me. I loved it.Not to nitpick at all and hopefully this will bring some clarity about the "Our Lady of Guadalupe" pilgrimage in Mexico City. I live in Mexico and am married to a Mexican woman. She, as virtually every Mexican I know has at least one or two paintings, statues, whatever of the Virgin. As I sit here this morning in my house with my wife and a 4 of her friends. They are just yapping it up next to me, I told them that you had listed the "long distance pilgrimages" around the world. Since my knowledge of the Catholic religion is about as extensive as as the length of a sneeze, I can only assume your listings were just of places peopled traveled to and not necessarily by walking. When I showed them the list they were as I suspected very excited and proud. Mexican people are fiercely proud of their history, culture, music and well all things Mexican. When they saw you calling it "Our Lady of Guadalupe" I chuckled a little waiting to hear what my wife and her friends would say when they read this. They immediately got a little angry because she is "The VIrgin" and "My VIrgin". Most people (at least among the people I know) have an intensely personal relationship with the VIrgin. Much more so than even Jesus and probably the equal to God. Their next reaction was GRINGO, and then they said I should correct you that she is the VIrgin of Guadalupe and the Pilgrimage is celebrated on December 12th it is when the Virgin first appeared at the Basilica. This is referred to as the "Perigrinacion a la Basilica de Guadalupe" I asked them how many people attended yearly and of course they said millions. They looked it up on Spanish language websites and according to the National Geographic Spanish website and other sites in 2017 a record was set with 7,280,000 pilgrim. They tell me it is impossible to know how many people actually walk to the Basilica from near and far and how many drive or take public transportation or walk part of the way just within Mexico City. The only reason I am writing this is that they wanted everyone to know most importantly that saying "Our Lady" is not in any way the name of the Virgin. I never knew until a few years after living in Mexico how important and deeply loved and engrained the Virgin is in the daily lives of a large majority fo Mexican people. I am sure you are forgiven and will be welcomed here in Mexico if you already aren't here!!! This wasn't my idea to write. For the stability of my marriage and my personal health and safety I was compelled to say something.
Indeed there is. See more re the Barcelos rooster/ Galo de Barcelos in this articleIs there not a similar claim about a chicken in Barcelos in Portugal? Barcelos is on the Portuguese Camino and I spent a pleasant day there and attended a Pilgrims mass there.
Have you all read the book the Relic Master by Christopher Buckley? A fairly amusing story about the cut-throat business of buying and selling "holy" relics in Europe during the Middle Ages.In the back streets of Bethlehem I could have bought a complete set of Joseph’s chisels for a knock-down price and hundreds of original crowns of thorns. I actually brought one back for my mother but found it impossible to do what she suggested with it.
My best souvenir of the holy (to some) land were some olives from a 1000+ year old tree in the garden of gesthemene, so possibly only a couple of generations removed from the time of the New Testament. They germinated.
The good thing about rocks is they accept you as you are and rarely criticise. They make ents appear frivolous.
That is both a complicated question and a simple one, from different perspectives -- and it's worth remembering that an entire Crusade was excommunicated, for the sack of Byzantium. Individual Crusaders could be too, on other occasions, for war crimes as much as for crimes against the Church.
As for the lifting of an excommunication that one could receive upon pledging to join a Crusader Army, that was not an indulgence per se, but an Act in Church Law recognising the commitment to penitential actions, and after Confession a return to Communion.
Otherwise, that indulgence was really little different in kind to the indulgence that was given, often at the very same time, for those going simply on pilgrimage to the Holy Land, and also for those staying at home and praying for the purposes of the Crusades to the Holy Land. And as always, false Confessions by those with no intention to give up their mortal sins invalidate the indulgence so that it is not received -- no difference in this for those who joined a Crusade, nor for those who go on Pilgrimage.
the cut-throat business of buying and selling "holy" relics in Europe during the Middle Ages.
Hmmm, my readings, if interpreted correctly, state several popes, (starting with Urban) over a few hundred years basically promised entry to heaven to anyone who undertook the Crusade to take and then retake Jerusalem. (That has to be a run-on sentence) That said, I am not an expert on the subject.
You can read more about the Bull of the Crusade, which granted indulgences to those in the wars against the infidels, here in the Catholic Encyclopedia. As you will see, it is very similar to the plenary indulgence discussed in Santo Domingo de la Calzada for the next seven years. The concessions granted to those who fought were granted "provided they went to confession and received Holy Communion".I guess what @jpflavin1 was trying to say or thinking of is this: that crusaders who die in warfare go straight to heaven, and later by extension, so do pilgrims who die during their pilgrimage. This is often alluded to in comments on the forum when posters express their condolences. All of this is a long way away from 2021 and Santo Domingo de la Calzada's plenary indulgence offer during the next 7 years.
You can read more about the Bull of the Crusade, which granted indulgences to those in the wars against the infidels, here in the Catholic Encyclopedia.
Said chicken!Yes Annie it is as well as the continuing spirit of the roosters. The cathedral where St Dominic is buried is also famous for a Gothic chicken coop! In this colorful cage within the sanctuary a live cock and hen are kept in memory of a local legend involving a pilgrim and an innkeeper’s daughter. The birds are changed periodically; hearing them crow is said to bring pilgrims good luck.
IIRC he's buried downstairs. I have one photo from the stairwell, white carved pillars, and a bouquet of fresh flowers.I've seen the chickens, but I guess I didn't spend enough time inside to see the tomb.
Thanks!
Marian pilgrimage sites are generally the site of apparitions. Frex Lourdes, LePuy, Fatima, Guadalupe in Mexico, maybe Knock in Ireland dunno...The discussion can obviously wander in all directions but 5 of the destinations in the list are Marian destinations so no material remains there while my comments referred to a person who is in fact or is believed to be (I didn't check) buried in the tomb inside the cathedral.
And you couldn't get a plenary indulgence anytime anywhere in Europe then but you can now. This has become a very abstract and contemporary spiritual thing. It may be interesting for some to read a 2013 article in the Atlantic about What the Pope Really Meant in His Twitter-Indulgences Announcement.
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