LIVE from the Camino They are recommending the Valcarlos route tomorrow, how foolish would it be to go Napoleon?

[garlicbread]

They are expecting snow at altitude. Talking to other pilgrims, some are going Napoleon anyway. Thoughts? I was hoping to go Napoleon myself.

I might add, lots of communication barriers at the pilgrims office. Most volunteers didn’t speak English or Spanish. Might get some people in trouble if they didn’t understand.

UPDATE. I went back at 7:55 pm and spoke the the American girl. She said absolutely no passage via Napoleon because of snow. She explained it well. Glad I went back. She was impossibly busy when I was here earlier so I didn’t get a chance to speak to her.

 

[jungleboy]

If it’s the Pilgrim’s Office who are recommending Valcarlos, I would strongly urge you to follow their advice. Rescues on the Napoleon route in bad weather are not uncommon.

 

[garlicbread]

If it’s the Pilgrim’s Office who are recommending Valcarlos, I would strongly urge you to follow their advice. Rescues on the Napoleon route in bad weather are not uncommon.

Yeah, looks like it will snow in Roncesvalles too

 

[Simperegrina]

What @jungleboy says

 

[J Willhaus]

The Napoleon is very scenic in good weather, however, not in bad weather.

 

[garlicbread]

The Napoleon is very scenic in good weather, however, not in bad weather.

Fair enough! Just got unlucky with a storm I guess.

 

[Kathar1na]

They are expecting snow at altitude. Talking to other pilgrims, some are going Napoleon anyway. Thoughts? I was hoping to go Napoleon myself.

I might add, lots of communication barriers at the pilgrims office. Most volunteers didn’t speak English or Spanish. Might get some people in trouble if they didn’t understand.

Frankly, how much is there to understand: Weather bad tomorrow, walk Valcarlos route.

I don't mean to sound unkind but if pilgrims go to the local Pilgrims Office, get the advice to not walk the Napoleon route because of the weather conditions and/or the trail conditions and then need to ask on social media like this forum for additional advice from us who aren't there and can do nothing more than read weather apps - that is a clear indication that these pilgrims should heed the advice of the Pilgrims Office. (It will be wet tomorrow, it will feel rather cold tomorrow like freezing cold, cloud cover will be low and dense, there will be no fantastic views, and it will be more tiring and exhausting to progress than when the weather is good for walking).

Buen Camino.

 

[J Willhaus]

Fair enough! Just got unlucky with a storm I guess.

You are quite lucky you are there on the Camino. BTW, it snowed here in Laramie, WY, too last night and some of our roads in our area are closed due to extreme high winds and risk of blowing over trucks and high profile vehicles (happens pretty regularly unfortunately). Wish I was there with you instead today!

 

[garlicbread]

Frankly, how much is there to understand: Weather bad tomorrow, walk Valcarlos route.

I don't mean to sound unkind but if pilgrims go to the local pilgrims office, get the advice to not walk the Napoleon route because of the weather conditions and/or the trail conditions and then need to ask on social media like this forum for additional advice from us who aren't there and can do nothing more than read weather apps - that is a clear indication that these pilgrims should heed the advice of the Pilgrims Office. (It will be wet tomorrow, it will feel rather cold tomorrow like freezing, cloud cover will be low and dense, and there will be no fantastic views, and it will be more tiring and exhausting than when the weather is good for walking).

Buen Camino.

You definitely could have mentioned that without the lecturing. The person I spoke to at the pilgrims office could barely speak English or Spanish so I could not ask for details on the severity of the weather or strength of the route recommendation. I appreciate the insight from everyone commenting.

 

[garlicbread]

You are quite lucky you are there on the Camino. BTW, it snowed here in Laramie, WY, too last night and some of our roads in our area are closed due to extreme high winds and risk of blowing over trucks and high profile vehicles (happens pretty regularly unfortunately). Wish I was there with you instead today!

Indeed. Beautiful day today too!

 

[VNwalking]

The Napoleon is very scenic in good weather, however, not in bad weather.

The Valcarlos route is scenic in any weather.
If the Pilgrim's Office is saying go that way, it's wisdom to follow their advice. And via Valcarlos you'll be on the real historic camino, not the Hollywood one.

 

[michal.don]

From my recent experience, if the weather doesn't allow any views, the really isn't anythning worthwhile on the Napoleon Route - just a lot of climbing, cold, and slight misery

 

[sun is shining]

You definitely could have mentioned that without the lecturing. The person I spoke to at the pilgrims office could barely speak English or Spanish so I could not ask for details on the severity of the weather or strength of the route recommendation. I appreciate the insight from everyone commenting.

When personal safety (and that of rescue personnel) is concerned clear words (like those by @Kathar1na) are needed to get the point across. Not sure where you are from but I’ve spent lots of times in various European mountain areas and the simple fact of “bad weather, trek closed” is usually respected here without the need of further discussion or explanation - regardless of what language the staff / volunteers speak.

Frankly I don’t get the fascination of this first stage of the Camino Frances. It’s really not that spectacular, nobody is “crossing the Pyrenees”, and there’s going to be exactly zero chance of nice views with the predicted bad weather. In short, you aren’t missing out on a once in a lifetime stage. You’ll encounter much more beautiful nature during the next few weeks.

 

[garlicbread]

When personal safety (and that of rescue personnel) is concerned clear words (like those by @Kathar1na) are needed to get the point across. Not sure where you are from but I’ve spent lots of times in various European mountain areas and the simple fact of “bad weather, trek closed” is usually respected here without the need of further discussion or explanation - regardless of what language the staff / volunteers speak.

Frankly I don’t get the fascination of this first stage of the Camino Frances. It’s really not that spectacular, nobody is “crossing the Pyrenees”, and there’s going to be exactly zero chance of nice views with the predicted bad weather. In short, you aren’t missing out on a once in a lifetime stage. You’ll encounter much more beautiful nature during the next few weeks.

I REALLY don’t think we should discourage people from posting when they don’t have the information they need. Of course I will respect closures but Napoléon is not closed. The office has had a line around the block today and can’t give everyone the attention they might need. No one’s fault. The supplemental thread is extremely helpful.

And because of it I have decided to be extremely prudent and will encourage other pilgrims to do the same!

 

[Simperegrina]

Enjoy the start to your Camino @garlicbread. I’ve heard the Valcarlos route is pretty nice

 

[Antnix1]

If it's not closed, trek it if you want.

And if the pilgrim centre are advising the other route, well maybe it's because they think it will be a more pleasant walk given the wet conditions and lack of views on the Napoleon.. or maybe the person who asked them is over 70 and in a wheelchair. Who knows.

It's not mount Everest.

It's a moderately challenging trail on a rainy spring day.

 

[LostFound]

I walked the Napoleon yesterday in somewhat miserable weather (but no advisory from the pilgrim’s office) and felt it was worth it. Even with cloud cover and steady drizzle, it was still scenic to me and limited visibility added to the sense of adventure. But I don’t know how the Valcarlos compares.

 

[Kathar1na]

Of course I will respect closures but Napoléon is not closed.

This is a common misconception among pilgrims: That the pass of the Napoleon route gets closed and opened by some unknown authority throughout the year.

This is not the case.

From November to March, the higher altitude section is closed by law. The Spanish authorities issue a decree every year.

During the first week of April or so, the pass is often closed for passage by nature: meter-high snowbanks that have not yet melted, extremely muddy soil - it will slow down pilgrims, especially those who are unequipped, unexperienced, unfit, and unfamiliar with the weather conditions and the terrain conditions at higher altitude. They encounter these conditions when they are already tired from the long drawn out ascent.

Throughout the year wind, cold, rain, hail, snow, thunderstorms, dense fog create similar conditions. That's why there are frequent incidents where pilgrims are too exhausted and too cold to continue and the rescue teams have to be mobilised - despite the clear recommendations of the Pilgrim Office to walk via Valcarlos.

 

[Kathar1na]

Even with cloud cover and steady drizzle

Did it snow yesterday? Did the temperature feel like -2 ºC at midday? I guess not. There is a significant change of the expected weather conditions. The prediction is that it is highly likely tomorrow that it will rain a lot (meteoblue has an orange weather warning for precipitation) or even snow a lot (viewweather estimate is in the region of 20+ cm for 24 hours) but in any case about 44 litre per square metre over 24 hours.

But why do I even write this? It is not top secret. When I was last in the Pilgrim Office (which was admittedly some time ago) they even had a detailed printout of the weather forecast for the Col de Bentarte on their noticeboard for pilgrims.

 

[Anhalter]

This is a common misconception among pilgrims: That the pass of the Napoleon route gets closed and opened by some unknown authority throughout the year.

This is not the case.

Uhm, that makes me kinda wonder.

I only walked the Napoleon twice, but i have a very strong memory of a sign somewhere (iirc before Orisson) that was saying something like "route open". So i guess there is the option for some "unknown authority" to turn it to "route closed". I might be wrong and the sign might only get turned till April 1st, but i always thought that said authority would turn it if weather was to be bad.

 

[VNwalking]

Frankly I don’t get the fascination of this first stage of the Camino Frances. It’s really not that spectacular, nobody is “crossing the Pyrenees”, and there’s going to be exactly zero chance of nice views with the predicted bad weather. In short, you aren’t missing out on a once in a lifetime stage. You’ll encounter much more beautiful nature during the next few weeks.

Me neither.

Enjoy the start to your Camino @garlicbread. I’ve heard the Valcarlos route is pretty nice

It. Is. Gorgeous. Very very nice walking.

Of course I will respect closures but Napoléon is not closed.

True. As @Kathar1na says, It's an advisory at this time of year, not a 'closure.' But you're missing nothing that special if you go via Valcarlos, hype aside. It's a big, very exposed, hill. Valcarlos is much more sheltered.

 

[OldHands]

The chart below is a forecast for tomorrow, May the 1st 2024, up near the highest point of the Napoleon Route. So the precipitation will be pretty bad. 2-4 mm per hour is not a drizzle. It is good rain, probably snow near the top. Myself I would most likely stay on Wednesday in SJPP and wait, because on Thursday it seems like it's gonna be a nice day.

Walking on the international road N-135, right next to huge trucks on a curvy road in heavy rain is not safe. I'm saying that because it is very likely that pilgrims taking Valcarlos way instead of walking on a muddy and wet trail, will just choose to walk on the side of the highway. In that aspect, the Napoleon Route is safer (no traffic).

 

[Camino Chrissy]

The Valcarlos route is beautiful in its own way. I thought the sights and couple of cute villages along the way were a nice introduction into Spain and its Basque area. I enjoyed it so much I chose it again.

 

[garlicbread]

But why do I even write this? It is not top secret. When I was last in the Pilgrim Office (which was admittedly some time ago) they even had a detailed printout of the weather forecast for the Col de Bentarte on their noticeboard for pilgrims.

That was simply not the case today.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Can someone give me a link to the best local weather page to check for SJPP? Because the one I’m looking at said it was sunny all day today and it obviously was not.

 

[J Willhaus]

Can someone give me a link to the best local weather page to check for SJPP? Because the one I’m looking at said it was sunny all day today and it obviously was not.

Looks like the weather was nice today, but maybe not so nice tomorrow per post #22.

 

[garlicbread]

The chart below is a forecast for tomorrow, May the 1st 2024, up near the highest point of the Napoleon Route. So the precipitation will be pretty bad. 2-4 mm per hour is not a drizzle. It is good rain, probably snow near the top. Myself I would most likely stay on Wednesday in SJPP and wait, because on Thursday it seems like it's gonna be a nice day.

Walking on the international road N-135, right next to huge trucks on a curvy road in heavy rain is not safe. I'm saying that because it is very likely that pilgrims taking Valcarlos way instead of walking on a muddy and wet trail, will just choose to walk on the side of the highway. In that aspect, the Napoleon Route is safer (no traffic).

Thanks for this info! I would stay, but I don’t think I could find accommodation… already booked ahead for every day until Pamplona. Que remedio

 

[Vacajoe]

You definitely could have mentioned that without the lecturing. The person I spoke to at the pilgrims office could barely speak English or Spanish so I could not ask for details on the severity of the weather or strength of the route recommendation. I appreciate the insight from everyone commenting.

There is currently a native speaker of English working at that office. If you needed additional assistance, you could have asked for her help. To expect that volunteers in an office in France providing advice for a walk across Spain should be able to speak English at all is a bit surprising….

 

[Kathar1na]

If it's not closed, trek it if you want.

You know nothing about the person to whom you give this advice on this internet forum or about the persons who read this advice.

I maintain what I wrote earlier: If someone cannot assess such a situation (detailed weather forecast for a very specific location on the next day, long ascent, long overall distance, first day) on the basis of their knowledge about themselves, about their gear, about their prior experience of climbing 1000+ m or walking 24+ km, and how they coped with snowfall or strong wind or heavy rain on the ascent and the pass, then they should heed the general advice of the local Pilgrim Office.

 

[Antnix1]

You know nothing about the person to whom you give this advice on this internet forum or about the persons who read this advice.

It's not advice.

If someone thinks they're fit for a moderate hike in poor conditions by all means they should go for it.

I maintain what I wrote earlier: If someone cannot assess such a situation (detailed weather forecast for a very specific location, long ascent, long overall distant, first day) on the basis of their knowledge about themselves, about their gear, about their prior experience of climbing 1000+ m or walking 24+ km, and how they coped with snowfall or strong wind or heavy rain on the ascent and the pass, then they should heed the advice of the local Pilgrim Office.

The pilgrims office might relay general advice but i suspect they aren't doing individual assessments of pilgrims on the criteria you specifed above.

 

[garlicbread]

There is currently a native speaker of English working at that office. If you needed additional assistance, you could have asked for her help. To expect that volunteers in an office in France providing advice for a walk across Spain should be able to speak English at all is a bit surprising….

I’m not expecting it, of course. I do wish I spoke French, although I am fluent in Spanish. She said she spoke Spanish but it was actually muy poco. That’s fine, we both did the best we could with what we had. I waited 30 minutes in line and inside it was packed and unorganized. That’s why I went to this forum for supplemental information!

My question was dumb but I actually got a lot of good information and I’m glad I posted.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

The Valcarlos route is beautiful in its own way. I thought the sights and couple of cute villages along the way were a nice introduction into Spain and its Basque area. I enjoyed it so much I chose it again.

I actually prefer it over the Napoleon route now.

 

[OldHands]

Thanks for this info! I would stay, but I don’t think I could find accommodation… already booked ahead for every day until Pamplona. Que remedio

Well, another option that you wouldn't like, but you can still keep in mind, is that there is a bus from SJPP to Roncesvalles at 1:45 PM (just once a day), the ticket is just 5 euro. In the morning you can hike up to Orisson (that's along the Napoleon Route), see how bad it is, have a coffee or breakfast in Orisson, enjoy the views from their terrace, and if it is really miserable, then walk back to SJPP, and get on that bus to Roncesvalles. I can almost guarantee you that you won't be the only pilgrim on that bus tomorrow. This way you would keep on schedule, as I understand you have booked accomodation all the way to Pamplona

 

[garlicbread]

The pilgrims office might relay general advice but i suspect they aren't doing individual assessments of pilgrims on the criteria you specifed above.

This is the vibe I got. There was not a DO NOT GO HERE type of warning.

 

[garlicbread]

Well, another option that you wouldn't like, but you can still keep in mind, is that there is a bus from SJPP to Roncesvalles at 1:45 PM (just once a day), the ticket is just 5 euro. In the morning you can hike up to Orisson (that's along the Napoleon Route), see how bad it is, have a coffee or breakfast in Orisson, enjoy the views from their terrace, and if it is really miserable, then walk back to SJPP, and get on that bus to Roncesvalles. I can almost guarantee you that you won't be the only pilgrim on that bus tomorrow. This way you would keep on schedule, as I understand you have booked accomodation all the way to Pamplona

I like these innovative solutions.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I understand everyone's concern about safety (and language...though the OP is fluent in two languages), but perhaps piling on someone asking genuine questions in good faith isn't the best look for us?

 

[garlicbread]

I understand everyone's concern about safety (and language...though the OP is fluent in two languages), but perhaps piling on someone asking genuine questions isn't the best look for us?

Appreciate it. Would love to come back with more dumb questions without hesitation

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

Appreciate it. Would love to come back with more dumb questions without hesitation

The context behind some of the finger wagging (which I don't wholly disagree with) is the Pyrenees is notorious for sudden weather changes. There are a few shelters along the route expressly for this reason. In the past, pilgrims have completely disregarded weather, trying to outwit the moutains. It's a costly mistake.

Buen camino!

 

[Kathar1na]

The pilgrims office might relay general advice but i suspect they aren't doing individual assessments of pilgrims on the criteria you specifed above.

Correct. That's exactly why I wrote that pilgrims who are not able to do an individual assessment of their own abilities and capabilities and knowledge and prior experience should heed the general advice from the Pilgrim Office and not expect to receive a tailor-made assessment from these volunteers.

 

[chinacat]

the Napoleon Route is safer (no traffic).

The R N is not entirely free of traffic; in fact, it looks quite hairy in the early stages (to someone who hasn’t walked on it for many years.)

 

[garlicbread]

The context behind some of the finger wagging (which I don't wholly disagree with) is the Pyrenees is notorious for sudden weather changes. There are a few shelters along the route expressly for this reason. In the past, pilgrims have completely disregarded weather, trying to outwit the moutains. It's a costly mistake.

Buen camino!

I don’t disagree with it either. I’m a very cautious traveler myself, but I can see someone getting in a lot of trouble because they were too confident.

However the finger wagging of me for asking a question is odd!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

The context behind some of the finger wagging (which I don't wholly disagree with) is the Pyrenees is notorious for sudden weather changes. There are a few shelters along the route expressly for this reason. In the past, pilgrims have completely disregarded weather, trying to outwit the mountains. It's a costly mistake.

Buen camino!

On my first Camino at the communal dinner table at Corazon Puro, a Spanish couple had just spent the previous night at the stone hut somewhere on the Napoleon route, unable to continue on in the cold and a fresh snow...on April 14th.

 

[K_Lynn]

You definitely could have mentioned that without the lecturing. The person I spoke to at the pilgrims office could barely speak English or Spanish so I could not ask for details on the severity of the weather or strength of the route recommendation. I appreciate the insight from everyone commenting.

I'm not sure why someone in France should be expected to speak Spanish, or English, yes, it's nice but I never expect it.

I have found a translation app works wonders when I need specific information.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I'm not sure why someone in France should be expected to speak Spanish, or English, yes, it's nice but I never expect it.

I have found a translation app works wonders when I need specific information.

I agree. I am on the Sanabres Camino now, and have had great success using Google's translation app.

 

[garlicbread]

I'm not sure why someone in France should be expected to speak Spanish, or English, yes, it's nice but I never expect it.

I have found a translation app works wonders when I need specific information.

Again I did not expect it. I wasn’t able to get enough clear info from the pilgrims office so I asked the forum. I didn’t have access to an app because I did not yet have a SIM card.

Also it’s not a crazy expectation for someone who volunteers or works at a place where many foreigners visit to speak English. There were many people from all over the world there who were unable to communicate with many of the volunteers.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I'm not sure why someone in France should be expected to speak Spanish, or English, yes, it's nice but I never expect it.

The pilgrims office often has volunteers who speak French, German, English, Spanish - I'm sure those volunteers vary throughout the year. It's not really an unreasonable expectation.

Many ppl who live along the border are also dual language speakers.

 

[OldHands]

The R N is not entirely free of traffic; in fact, it looks quite hairy in the early stages (to someone who hasn’t walked on it for many years.)

 

[Kathar1na]

Also it’s not a crazy expectation for someone who volunteers or works at a place where many foreigners visit to speak English. There were many people from all over the world there who were unable to communicate with many of the volunteers.

Just for info: The volunteers at the SJPP pilgrim office are on two-week assignments - they offer two weeks of their time per year to assist pilgrims; they are recruited from all over the world but mostly from all over France. The SJPP pilgrim office is run by a regional volunteer Camino association - French obviously as SJPP is in France. And I am pretty certain when I say that the majority of pilgrims who start in SJPP do not have English as their first language .

And don't they have tags on their desks that indicate the languages in which they can communicate or am I mistaken? Obviously, that would mean that the foreign pilgrim may have to wait before a suitable volunteer becomes available and given that we are on the eve of the 1st of May (which is a very busy pilgrimage period in SJPP as widely known) the pilgrim may not have the time to wait ...

 

[garlicbread]

UPDATE. I went back at 7:55 pm and spoke the the American girl. She said absolutely no passage via Napoleon because of snow. She explained it well. Glad I went back. She was impossibly busy when I was here earlier so I didn’t get a chance to speak to her.

 

[Tincatinker]

I think, generally speaking, if the PO in St Jean advises against the Route Napoleon then that’s it. No further or detailed explanation should be required. They don’t offer such advice on a whimsy but after consideration of forecasts and consultation with the emergency services.
The advice I might seek, even from the TV in a bar, is as to the lower route and the likely weather conditions at Puerto de Ibañeta. I can then make an informed decision on whether to walk on to Valcarlos and its pleasant Albergue and take the opportunity to get up and over early in the day and before the surge of the disgruntled coming from St Jean, or to try and book another night in St Jean.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Well, another option that you wouldn't like, but you can still keep in mind, is that there is a bus from SJPP to Roncesvalles at 1:45 PM (just once a day), the ticket is just 5 euro. In the morning you can hike up to Orisson (that's along the Napoleon Route), see how bad it is, have a coffee or breakfast in Orisson, enjoy the views from their terrace, and if it is really miserable, then walk back to SJPP, and get on that bus to Roncesvalles. I can almost guarantee you that you won't be the only pilgrim on that bus tomorrow. This way you would keep on schedule, as I understand you have booked accomodation all the way to Pamplona

Thank you. I did not know about the bus. If we decided to take this bus, do we need to buy tickets ahead of time or just get them from the bus driver?

 

[VNwalking]

This is the vibe I got. There was not a DO NOT GO HERE type of warning.

The Valcarlos route will be wet too, but at least it's not exposed except at the very top. I never walked on the road; part of the way through the forest is very steep so unlikely to be muddy. Once you meet the road again at the top of the steep ascent, the pathway contours along until it gets to the overlook at Ibañeta. That's the part that could get quite muddy or slushy (see pic ..) But there's at least one place where you can take the tarmac at that point. And certainly from Ibañeta down to Roncesvalles I'd be taking the road if it were really wet.

 

[garlicbread]

I think, generally speaking, if the PO in St Jean advises against the Route Napoleon then that’s it. No further or detailed explanation should be required. They don’t offer such advice on a whimsy but after consideration of forecasts and consultation with the emergency services.
The advice I might seek, even from the TV in a bar, is as to the lower route and the likely weather conditions at Puerto de Ibañeta. I can then make an informed decision on whether to walk on to Valcarlos and its pleasant Albergue and take the opportunity to get up and over early in the day and before the surge of the disgruntled coming from St Jean, or to try and book another night in St Jean.

I’m definitely got a solid “do not go” when I went back to the office before it closed. Maybe the first time I didn’t understand but I got a different message. I’m worried about people who had similar experiences as me at the office.

Literally people in the albergue are still discussing which route to take.

 

[OldHands]

Thank you. I did not know about the bus. If we decided to take this bus, do we need to buy tickets ahead of time or just get them from the bus driver?

That's the ALSA bus that brings people from Pamplona to SJPP, on the way back. I haven't used it yet, but I know you can buy tickets from the ALSA website or ALSA app. Probably from the driver as well

 

[garlicbread]

Just for info: The volunteers at the SJPP pilgrim office are on two-week assignments - they offer two weeks of their time per year to assist pilgrims; they are recruited from all over the world but mostly from all over France. The SJPP pilgrim office is run by a regional volunteer Camino association - French obviously as SJPP is in France. And I am pretty certain when I say that the majority of pilgrims who start in SJPP do not have English as their first language .

And don't they have tags on their desks that indicate the languages in which they can communicate or am I mistaken? Obviously, that would mean that the foreign pilgrim may have to wait before a suitable volunteer becomes available and given that we are on the eve of the 1st of May (which is a very busy pilgrimage period in SJPP as widely known) the pilgrim may not have the time to wait ...

Not their first language, but second. I saw a couple of folks from Asia trying to communicate in English but the volunteers didn’t speak it. Trust me, I hate the assumption that everyone speaks English as much as the next guy, but in an environment like this it’s almost a necessity for people’s safety.

Indeed they do have the languages on their desk. I went to the one who had Spanish, but her Spanish wasn’t great. Very basic and not enough to communicate the details.

 

[Tincatinker]

Literally people in the albergue are still discussing which route to take.

That’s a shame. They would be better devoting their energy to planning how to stay as warm, dry and safe as possible tomorrow. Or booking a bus ticket before they’re all gone.

Perhaps you could share this thread with a few

 

[garlicbread]

That’s a shame. They would be better devoting their energy to planning how to stay as warm, dry and safe as possible tomorrow. Or booking a bus ticket before they’re all gone.

Perhaps you could share this thread with a few

I am advising everyone I can. There’s a lot of panic in the air.

 

[Flog]

Literally people in the albergue are still discussing which route to take.

Many folk who ask a question, have no interest in the answer if it's not the one they want.. there's really not much can be done about that.

 

[David Tallan]

They are expecting snow at altitude. Talking to other pilgrims, some are going Napoleon anyway. Thoughts? I was hoping to go Napoleon myself.

I might add, lots of communication barriers at the pilgrims office. Most volunteers didn’t speak English or Spanish. Might get some people in trouble if they didn’t understand.

UPDATE. I went back at 7:55 pm and spoke the the American girl. She said absolutely no passage via Napoleon because of snow. She explained it well. Glad I went back. She was impossibly busy when I was here earlier so I didn’t get a chance to speak to her.

This isn't aimed at you, after the update, but at others who might come to this thread with a similar question on another day.

Thoughts? Very foolish.

There is a thread elsewhere on the forum about which the most dangerous stage of the Camino is, with Rabanal to Molinaseca being proposed (if memory serves me correctly). That stage doesn't even play in the same league as the Napoleon pass as far as danger goes, when the weather gets iffy. Rescues are not infrequent and fatalities happen on the Napoleon route in bad weather. You really don't want to be there.

If it is any consolation for those future pilgrims in the same boat, the views aren't great in a snowstorm and the Valcarlos pass is more historic (in that Charlemagne goes back a lot further than Napoleon and the legends of Charlemagne are inextricably intertwined with the legends of the Camino).

 

[dougfitz]

so I could not ask for details on the severity of the weather or strength of the route recommendation.

There is only one strength. You were advised not to go. The Pilgrim Office does not do so lightly, and has far more experience with the local conditions than any of us might as individuals.

I saw the results of pilgrims not heeding the Pilgrim Office advice on my first Camino. No-one had to be rescued, but there were still pilgrims, some of whom had left before I started on Route Valcarlos, arriving after 8:00 pm, ie, after sunset. I had struggled on Route Valcarlos in the conditions, and had not arrived until 6:00 pm when there was still good light. The descent onto Roncesvalles is difficult as it is. Doing it in the dark must have been terrifying.

 

[Telboyo]

I have walked from SJPP twice, the first was 30 March 2019 so I had to use the Vacarlos route the weather was wonderful, very warm.
The second time was in July 2023, it was a very grey day, I mentioned to the volunteers in the pilgrim office that the VC route might be a good idea, they convinced me to go over the top.
It was horrible I could not see my hand in front of my face, 40kmh winds and fog at the same time.

IF THE PILGRIMS OFFICE SAYS VAL CARLOS USE THE VALCARLOS .

 

[Kirkie]

I second the above post. I have just had a brief call with a friend in Pamplona. It is going to be a bit miserable in the area.... Read that, weather wise, as you wish. Here is a notice from my paper today.

What would you do, having read it? Would you ask for thoughts? I would not. I would believe the people on the ground.

 

[Antnix1]

I second the above post. I have just had a brief call with a friend in Pamplona. It is going to be a bit miserable in the area.... Read that, weather wise, as you wish. Here is a notice from my paper today.
View attachment 169177
What would you do, having read it? Would you ask for thoughts? I would not. I would believe the people on the ground.

Thanks Kirkie.. your reporting is like that of Peter O'Hanraha-hanrahan.

"I don't like it but I'll have to go along with it"

 

[Antnix1]

I'm referring to the notice you embedded. Not sure if it was intentional

 

[Kirkie]

Whatever I post is intentional. Rightly or wrongly.

 

[Bradypus]

I have just seen a Facebook video from the Benedictine community in Rabanal showing snow falling there this morning. The O Cebreiro webcam and the Iraty webcam are showing snow on the ground too at the moment.That seems to add weight to the forecast of snow on the Route Napoleon at a similar height.

 

[Flog]

"I don't like it but I'll have to go along with it"

Ich nichten lichten, as I thought to myself, donning my poncho leaving the German Association run albergue in Pamplona a couple of hours ago..

Which, by the way.. and on a completely different note, and might afford some solace to those anxious pilgrims setting out from Zubiri this morning, had sixteen out of twenty six beds free last might...

 

[Frankybaby66]

They are expecting snow at altitude. Talking to other pilgrims, some are going Napoleon anyway. Thoughts? I was hoping to go Napoleon myself.

I might add, lots of communication barriers at the pilgrims office. Most volunteers didn’t speak English or Spanish. Might get some people in trouble if they didn’t understand.

UPDATE. I went back at 7:55 pm and spoke the the American girl. She said absolutely no passage via Napoleon because of snow. She explained it well. Glad I went back. She was impossibly busy when I was here earlier so I didn’t get a chance to speak to her.

Generally speaking, if you have to ask the question 'How foolish would it be ..' You already know the answer . ..

 

[Kathar1na]

the Iraty webcam are showing snow on the ground too at the moment.That seems to add weight to the forecast of snow on the Route Napoleon at a similar height.

I just love making screenshots of the Iraty webcam and putting them together . Below is what it looked like at 16:20 yesterday when this thread was started and now today at 10:00. The Route Napoleon passes are about 20 km to the west and about 300-400 m higher than the Iraty webcam. So there will be snow on the ground. The detailed weather forecasts for the rest of the day still do not have reached their highest level of predictability but they put the likelihood of more precipitation throughout the whole day at 97% resp. 100%.

When snow doesn't melt it is cold outside. When snow on the ground reaches a certain height, shoes and socks get wet and it takes longer to walk. It can also be slippery which slows walkers down. The long slog over these hills will take even longer. There is no grassy spot to sit down and have a rest and a look around to enjoy the scenery and, as the Roncesvalles albergue manager pointed out recently, pilgrims straggle into the albergue on such days late in the day in wet clothes and without having eaten or drunk all day. Just in case this is news to anybody.

 

[davejsy]

I’m not expecting it, of course. I do wish I spoke French, although I am fluent in Spanish. She said she spoke Spanish but it was actually muy poco. That’s fine, we both did the best we could with what we had. I waited 30 minutes in line and inside it was packed and unorganized. That’s why I went to this forum for supplemental information!

My question was dumb but I actually got a lot of good information and I’m glad I posted.

Certainly not a dumb question at all given the information you had to hand, and what other pilgrims were planning. In fact it's smart that you still had the foresight to come on here to ask, and I hope some responses don't put other people off from doing the same no matter how well intentioned they may have been trying to be.

These kind of topics do tend to get people going for sure.

I hope you have an amazing first day, and to get to see any part of the Pyrenees with fresh snow is going to be great and with the added safety of the Valcaros route you'll be more likely to enjoy it.

Buen Camino

 

[Bradypus]

I just love making screenshots of the Iraty webcam and putting them together .

More snow falling at the moment. Probably the same nearer Roncesvalles.

 

[Antnix1]

Anyone who set off from the Orisson this morning is probably there by now, that is if anyone took the route and didn't get buried in an avalanche.

Hopefully someone in Roncevalles right now can tell us about their journey.

 

[Kathar1na]

Anyone who set off from the Orisson this morning is probably there by now, that is if anyone took the route and didn't get buried in an avalanche. Hopefully someone in Roncevalles right now can tell us about their journey.

I predict: Some will have found it easy-easy, some will say that the weather forecast got it all wrong, some will say that it was much harder than expected but they made it and would not have wanted to have missed it for the world despite the low temperatures and the fog and clouds, some will say that they walked Valcarlos and some will say that they didn't, and the overwhelming majority will not post here, and hopefully we will not see a Twitter feed from the Burguete Bomberos this evening that they had to start their all-terrain vehicle and had to drive up to the pass because of pilgrims who could not walk one step further, and that those of the first responder teams who were on duty on this 1st of May holiday could enjoy the comfort of their station with their colleagues.

How many left from SJPP/Orisson/Borda today for Roncesvalles, does anyone know? More or fewer than 300 pilgrims?

 

[Bradypus]

 

[Flog]

View attachment 169194

A bit of a dusting.. looks similar to what we had up at Somport last week, was short lived.

 

[SantiagoCruzB]

I’m not expecting it, of course. I do wish I spoke French, although I am fluent in Spanish. She said she spoke Spanish but it was actually muy poco. That’s fine, we both did the best we could with what we had. I waited 30 minutes in line and inside it was packed and unorganized. That’s why I went to this forum for supplemental information!

My question was dumb but I actually got a lot of good information and I’m glad I posted.

It wasn't a dumb question. It was actually a good one if you ask me. And you were right to post it in this forum since there are a lot of well-experienced people here who can offer good and helpful advice. In some cases the tone may be condescending or all-knowing but they do mean well (based on my experience). Buen Camino!

 

[Bradypus]

A bit of a dusting.. looks similar to what we had up at Somport last week, was short lived.

Yes. There was a heavier fall at O Cebreiro which has largely melted now. Slippery underfoot while it lasts though. Not a good day to walk the path down to El Acebo. Safer on the road today.

 

[Anniesantiago]

We spoke with Gite Compostelle. It is raining in SJPP, AND it is currently snowing in Roncesvalles. Our group will be taking the bus if this is the same tomorrow.

 

[lt56ny]

They are expecting snow at altitude. Talking to other pilgrims, some are going Napoleon anyway. Thoughts? I was hoping to go Napoleon myself.

I might add, lots of communication barriers at the pilgrims office. Most volunteers didn’t speak English or Spanish. Might get some people in trouble if they didn’t understand.

UPDATE. I went back at 7:55 pm and spoke the the American girl. She said absolutely no passage via Napoleon because of snow. She explained it well. Glad I went back. She was impossibly busy when I was here earlier so I didn’t get a chance to speak to her.

I hope this is a crucial lesson learned for now and the future. ANYWHERE along the camino you may encounter really horrible weather. A few years ago I (note it was in late November) I was staying in the Albergue San Javier in Astorga. We had a wonderful dinner that the owner prepared for us. There were about 6 of us there. At dinner he said it was starting to snow pretty hard from before Rabanal. He said he would let us know in the morning. At breakfast he said that they were busing people back to Astorga the night before because the albergues were full. In fact they were stopping people before they even got to Rabanal. He told us we had three choices. We could stay in Astorga for a day or two, bus to Foncebadon or, as he put it be really stupid and try walking this morning. Even after this warning 2 people were really stupid. I chose to bus to Foncebadon as I was going to meet my daughter who was going to graduate school in Manchester. We were going to meet in Porto. If I had waited a few days to be safe I would have had less time with my girl. I may love the camino but I love my daughter more than life and would take her any day of the week first!!!!
The moral of this story is, no matter when or where you are walking things can happen. The townspeople, the owners of bars or albergues or hospitalerios know alot more about local conditions than we do. So if they tell you no, then kick your feet up and relax and be thankful for their help.

 

[VNwalking]

hopefully we will not see a Twitter feed from the Burguete Bomberos this evening that they had to start their all-terrain vehicle and had to drive up to the pass because of pilgrims who could not walk one step further, and that those of the first responder teams who were on duty on this 1st of May holiday could enjoy the comfort of their station with their colleagues

This. Exactly this. May it be so.

 

[joramos]

They are expecting snow at altitude. Talking to other pilgrims, some are going Napoleon anyway. Thoughts? I was hoping to go Napoleon myself.

I might add, lots of communication barriers at the pilgrims office. Most volunteers didn’t speak English or Spanish. Might get some people in trouble if they didn’t understand.

UPDATE. I went back at 7:55 pm and spoke the the American girl. She said absolutely no passage via Napoleon because of snow. She explained it well. Glad I went back. She was impossibly busy when I was here earlier so I didn’t get a chance to speak to her.

Welcome to the forum!!!

Buen Camino.

 

[Nelle]

FWIW - I took the Napoleon route in horrible weather last fall — ~60mph/100kph wind gusts, driving rain, etc. A handful of people needed to be rescued that day — and the route was OPEN. No recomendation against it, just that we might get some rain. I can’t imagine how bad it must have to be for the Pilgrim’s Office to recommend againat the Napoleon — but it’s advice worth taking. Good luck and buen camino.

 

[Charte57]

I’m on the Frances right now, I crossed about 10 days ago and was blessed with a wonderfully sunny day but I’ve talked to others who were not so fortunate. Just a few days ago there was quite a bit of snow and there were some rescues by ambulance. Sounded horrible, also just the day I crossed it was windy with sleet. No thanks. Buen camino

 

[Monasp]

The Valcarlos route is scenic in any weather.
If the Pilgrim's Office is saying go that way, it's wisdom to follow their advice. And via Valcarlos you'll be on the real historic camino, not the Hollywood one.

No, that's not what the "Codex Qualixtinus" says. This historical document states that the Route passes through St Michel le Vieux and over the passes. The chapel on the Ibañeta pass is built on the ruins of the old pilgrims' hospital.

 

[CAshworth]

They are expecting snow at altitude. Talking to other pilgrims, some are going Napoleon anyway. Thoughts? I was hoping to go Napoleon myself.

I might add, lots of communication barriers at the pilgrims office. Most volunteers didn’t speak English or Spanish. Might get some people in trouble if they didn’t understand.

UPDATE. I went back at 7:55 pm and spoke the the American girl. She said absolutely no passage via Napoleon because of snow. She explained it well. Glad I went back. She was impossibly busy when I was here earlier so I didn’t get a chance to speak to her.

Val Carlos way is beautiful. Enjoy!

 

[mvirtue]

I REALLY don’t think we should discourage people from posting when they don’t have the information they need. Of course I will respect closures but Napoléon is not closed. The office has had a line around the block today and can’t give everyone the attention they might need. No one’s fault. The supplemental thread is extremely helpful.

And because of it I have decided to be extremely prudent and will encourage other pilgrims to do the same!

On April 18th 2013 we went Valcarlos route, just because, and those who waked the Napelon route felt lucky to be alive. So much snow at the top that they couldn't see any arrows at all. Someone had a gps which got a whole group of them to Roncevalles safely. I've done 13 Caminos and my credo is "always listen to the locals". They are trying to ensure that you have a happy, safe, camino.

 

[VNwalking]

No, that's not what the "Codex Qualixtinus" says. This historical document states that the Route passes through St Michel le Vieux and over the passes. The chapel on the Ibañeta pass is built on the ruins of the old pilgrims' hospital.

Merci, Mona. I'd been told (and read) otherwise, but am happy to be corrected. And Ibañeta is where the two roads (high via the Napoleon route and low via Valcarlos) come together, right?

 

[Saint Mike II]

Hola WOW I can’t remember so many professional answers to one of the most difficult Camino questions: Day 1 Napoleon or Valcarlos? This was me back in May 1, 2017. On the Napoleon it was snow, rain, 80kmph winds and temperatures below 5C ( before wind chill). I took Valcarlos on May 2 and you could see the snow high up to both left (east) and right (west). Next day from Valcarlos to Roncenvales it was drizzle but no snow.
Another great example of how this Forum can save your life. Buen Camino

 

[Bradypus]

Just saw a Facebook post from someone who walked the Napoleon today. With 12 photos. Seems the snow was pretty light but accompanied by cold, rain and wind.

Log into Facebook

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[Antnix1]

Just saw a Facebook post from someone who walked the Napoleon today. With 12 photos. Seems the snow was pretty light but accompanied by cold, rain and wind.

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

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In shorts too.

 

[diggidan]

I walked the route napoleon 4 weeks ago. I did it in 2 days because I am not used to hike mountains and stayed at Borda for the night. The first day was simply beautiful and sunny, the second day greeted me with winds blowing 80 to 90 km/h - this was the hardest hike I ever did and I think it should have been closed! It wasn’t so I walked through the winds and it wasn’t really enjoyable. Even the „safe“ route down to Roncesvalles via the street was pure horror because of the winds. I am a 95kg dude and was really scared to get blown away or at least pushed to the cliff or something. I really stopped like any 20 meters to wait for the wind to past and hold tight on the metal markers post things. So in short: when the pilgrims office advice to take the Valcarlos route better trust them. I didn’t ask at all I just had the info that the route is open. So it was my mistake in the end.

 

[Kathar1na]

winds blowing 80 to 90 km/h - this was the hardest hike I ever did and I think it should have been closed! It wasn’t so I walked through the winds and it wasn’t really enjoyable.

Thank you for sharing your experience. There is no authority in Spain or France that closes the pass of the Napoleon route during April to October. This myth makes people wrongly believe that they will be fine “when the pass is open”. It creates a wrong sense of security and safety. The pass is (legally) always open during April to October even when the weather conditions or the conditions on the ground make it next to impassable or at least “strongly advised against”.

(One year I met someone who, the previous day, had been lifted up by a very strong wind gust on the Route Napoleon, fell to the ground and broke her shoulder bone. End of Camino for her on her first day. We walked towards SJPP on the day of her accident but were aware of the storm - barely noticeable in the flat valley and the following day when we climbed the weather had improved and we had made sure to check it beforehand)

 

[Kathar1na]

The thread is getting long and the weather on the passes of the Napoleon route will have improved within a short time. But there is something I'd like to point out. While it may have snowed in other parts of the Camino Francés at higher altitude, too, the situation between SJPP and Roncesvalles is unique.

There have been fatalities on this section. A regional newspaper article claims that the most common reasons are natural causes like heart attack, heatstroke, getting lost and hypothermia.

It is difficult to know how and why something has happened because often there is just an initial news report without any follow-up. Speculation is then ripe. In January 2002, a pilgrim was last seen near the Bentarte pass and was found dead 10 days later. In April of the same year, another pilgrim disappeared and was found dead days later in Ortzanzurieta which would indicate that he lost his way, possibly in bad weather, near the Lepoeder pass. There were also numerous cases in the past where pilgrims got caught in very cold weather, got injured because they had fallen or slipped, and would have been in danger to limb and life had they not been rescued, always in adverse weather conditions and at higher altitude.

Much has been done by the Spanish authorities to prevent such incidents. A fairly short section of the Route Napoleon has been equipped with an infrastructure that must be unique in the Pyrenees and the Alps. A small solid building has been built as a shelter with an emergency phone - at the relatively modest altitude of below 1500 m, at a distance of not more than 5 km - barely an hour to walk - from a major road and habitations!!! Some 200 wooden poles, numbered, have been installed - I know this only for roads with car traffic (helps the snow ploughs to find their way) and not for foot paths!!! Even two WiFi stations have been installed at the start end and end of the 5 km section!!! The ban for everyone to walk between November and March was introduced a few years and gets renewed every year.

All these infrastructure efforts - and also helped by the fact that many pilgrims carry nowadays a working mobile phone and can call for help when exhausted or injured in any weather - have reduced very serious incidents in recent years.

However, hardly a week passes without reports that the first responder teams had to come and assist pilgrims on the Route Napoleon. These teams are in danger of becoming or being regarded as a taxi service. Or perhaps the road from Lepoeder to Ibañeta will receive a better surface and taxis will indeed roll up and down for pilgrims. Then you can be driven up to the Croix Thibault, can say that you walked over the Pyrenees for an hour or so, and be driven down to Roncesvalles. Is that what we want?

I don't participate in these threads to make fun of foolish behaviour or of advice that may sound exaggerated. I participate because I hope in some small ways to help the Burguete Bomberos to concentrate on their main job: first response in the case of serious traffic accidents and dealing with fire in buildings, especially chimney fires.

There are pilgrims who are very unfamiliar with the climate, with the deciphering of the weather forecast, with the territory and with simple facts of hiking outdoors in a mountainous area. They are from a far away region and walk on their first day. I believe in people being able to make informed decisions when they are well informed and can better judge their situation, their capabilities, the composition of their gear. And that's why I participate.

 

[Bumpa]

What am

It's not advice.

If someone thinks they're fit for a moderate hike in poor conditions by all means they should go for it.




The pilgrims office might relay general advice but i suspect they aren't doing individual assessments of pilgrims on the criteria you specifed above.

What am I missing here? You come from another country, ask the advice of people who reside in the area and decide you would be better asking strangers from all over the world on a blog. There is a.history of rescues in this area. I suggest people in the pilgrim's office do not make this suggestion on a whim.

 

[HappyValerie]

I've detected a lot of passion in some of the posts in this thread. I didn't interpret anything as "finger-waving" but rather as deep heartfelt concern for the safety and well-being of all pilgrims & rescuers. It can feel frustrating when this is your heart's desire & you feel others can't hear you.
I am warmed by the energy that fellow pilgrims contribute, and to the soon-to-be pilgrims, I look forward to your thoughts & advice as your experiences grow.

Buen Camino to all ( That's what we all wish for each other)

 

[Saint Mike II]

Thank you for sharing your experience. There is no authority in Spain or France that closes the pass of the Napoleon route during April to October. This myth makes people wrongly believe that they will be fine “when the pass is open”. It creates a wrong sense of security and safety. The pass is (legally) always open during April to October even when the weather conditions or the conditions on the ground make it next to impassable or at least “strongly advised against”.

(One year I met someone who, the previous day, had been lifted up by a very strong wind gust on the Route Napoleon, fell to the ground and broke her shoulder bone. End of Camino for her on her first day. We walked towards SJPP on the day of her accident but were aware of the storm - barely noticeable in the flat valley and the following day when we climbed the weather had improved and we had made sure to check it beforehand)

Hola - in 2017 I met a young Italian woman pilgrim who had a similar event. She spent two days in hospital (first time in her life). It was about 5 days after the event when I met her and she still had significant bruising. So yes I totally agree - if the SJPP PO says/recommends the Valcarlos then that is what you do. You can't complete a camino in one day or one week but you can definitely END one in one day. Buen Camino.

 

[Viva Terlingua]

Just remember what happened to Daniel Avery.

 

[Antnix1]

I see from another thread that op only had trail runners, a fleece and a too small poncho.

That's part of the reason the pilgrims office recommend valcarlos.. because people don't have the right gear.

Personally I didn't take their recommendation of valcarlos 2.5 years ago, instead opting to spend a night in the Orisson and assess the situation the next morning. Spoiler alert: it was fine.

Yes the pilgrim's office plays an important part in risk reduction. If its advice scares off the people most at risk, it's done its job.

But let's have a little perspective... There's no need for paved roads up the mountain!

Actually my advice would be if conditions are bad or changeable that there's safety in numbers.

 

[garlicbread]

I see from another thread that op only had trail runners, a fleece and a too small poncho.

That's part of the reason the pilgrims office recommend valcarlos.. because people don't have the right gear.

Personally I didn't take their recommendation of valcarlos 2.5 years ago, instead opting to spend a night in the Orisson and assess the situation the next morning. Spoiler alert: it was fine.

Yes the pilgrim's office plays an important part in risk reduction. If its advice scares off the people most at risk, it's done its job.

But let's have a little perspective... There's no need for paved roads up the mountain!

Actually my advice would be if conditions are bad or changeable that there's safety in numbers.

I absolutely did not have the right gear for napoleon. I honestly just needed more details about the snow situation. A light dusting I could deal with. Heavy snow would be a problem.

I went back the the office and got more details and made the right decision

 

[Kathy F.]

My first Camino was rerouted due to snow in late May.
Follow the advice of the pilgrim office. In the past, pilgrims who have ignored the advice and then gotten stuck have had to pay the cost of their rescue.
Besides, the Valcarlos is a quite lovely route to take! Why would you NOT want to take it?