Clarification of new entry rules in Oct 24.

[MickMac]

A new EU digital border system that will require fingerprints and facial scans to be taken from British travellers on first use is expected to launch next autumn, according to reports.

The entry/exit system (EES) is earmarked to start on 6 October 2024, according to the i and Times newspapers, citing Getlink, the owner of Eurotunnel. The Guardian has contacted Getlink for comment.

 

[Corned Beef]

Just the British? Are they a dodgy lot, coming over to France and taking all their cheese?

 

[Kathar1na]

Just the British? Are they a dodgy lot, coming over to France and taking all their cheese?

The EES is not just for British nationals but for all TCNs (what the EU calls third country nationals, i.e. British, Americans, Canadians, Australians and about 55+ other nationalities). The EES will be introduced at all external EU borders - sea, air, land. Your passports will no longer get stamped. It is not a Brexit thing.

Nobody knows much about the delays that the introduction of the EES system will actually cause for TCN travellers who travel to an EU Schengen country for the first time under the EES system. Whether all countries and all their airports, seaports, and terrestrial crossings that mark an external EU border will be ready by the autumn of 2024 or not. They will have to communicate yes or no by August 2024.

That the Dover port authorities have been concerned about EES related delays in view of Channel crossings and that the French government has been concerned about EES related delays in view of foreign visitors arriving by air or sea for the Olympic Games in the summer of 2024 has been in the news for a long time, at least for 12 months and longer.

Currently, the "big" news is the fact that there is, for the first time, mention of a date: 6 October 2024. Whether this is an official EU wide start or merely the start of test runs in Dover is anyone's guess.

I'd suggest that we just sit back and let it develop. And that we wait until the first person has actually travelled through an EES point of entry and had their fingerprints taken and their face scanned. Doesn't the US immigration service do this with non-US travellers and has done so for umpteen years?

 

[MickMac]

The EES is not just for British nationals but for all TCNs (what the EU calls third country nationals, i.e. British, Americans, Canadians, Australians and about 55+ other nationalities). The EES will be introduced at all external EU borders - sea, air, land. Your passports will no longer get stamped. It is not a Brexit thing.

Nobody knows much about the delays that the introduction of the EES system will actually cause for TCN travellers who travel to an EU Schengen country for the first time under the EES system. Whether all countries and all their airports, seaports, and terrestrial crossings that mark an external EU border will be ready by the autumn of 2024 or not. They will have to communicate yes or no by August 2024.

That the Dover port authorities have been concerned about EES related delays in view of channel crossings and that the French government has been concerned about EES related delays in view of foreign visitors arriving by air or sea for the Olympic Games in the summer of 2024 has been in the news for a long time, at least for 12 months and longer.

Currently, the "big" news is the fact that there is, for the first time, mention of a date: 6 October 2024. Whether this is an official EU wide start or merely the start of test runs in Dover is anyone's guess.

I'd suggest that we just sit back and let it develop. And that we wait until the first person has actually travelled through an EES point of entry and had their fingerprints taken. Doesn't the US immigration service do this with non-US travellers and has done so for umpteen years?

The report was carried in the English Guardian news journal so its from a point of view of English citizens.

 

[Kathar1na]

The report was carried in the English Guardian news journal so its from a point of view of English citizens.

Dover is a massive port. If somebody would ask me for advice I would recommend to travel through Newhaven instead. It is a cozy little port. You'll get on the boat quickly and the EU checkpoint is in Dieppe. My only wish is that they will then finally separate the lines for cars with EU drivers from the cars with non-EU drivers and we can zoom through without delay. Roll-on roll-off as it should be.

 

[TravellingMan22]

The report was carried in the English Guardian news journal so its from a point of view of English citizens.

The report was carried in the English Guardian news journal so its from a point of view of English citizens.

Indeed (though with rule 3 in mind) it is a highly political topic and the two newsapers running it as a ‘major’ today, are from opposite sides of the political divide and reporting it accordingly!

 

[Kathar1na]

Comparatively very few Camino pilgrims travel through Dover. The main entry points for TCN pilgrims appear to be Paris CDG airport and Madrid Barajas airport. Has there been anything in the news about how things are progressing there and whether there are great concerns about future delays at border control posts in these two airports towards the end of 2024 and in 2025?

 

[TravellingMan22]

Comparatively very few Camino pilgrims travel through Dover. The main entry points for TCN pilgrims appear to be Paris CDG airport and Madrid Barajas airport. Has there been anything in the news about how things are progressing there and whether there are great concerns about future delays at border control posts in these two airports towards the end of 2024 and in 2025?

Conscious of rule 3 so delete if need be. If you mean UK media then no. All news outlets, irrespective of political leaning, are largely focused on ‘bad news’, with no real fact, when travelling to EU countries. It actually works for both sides. There is no real objective reporting. The issue is ‘dying’ a little though resurfaces at peak travel times.

 

[Kathar1na]

Which is why we'd better stick to the one and only official source of information about the EES:

EES

European Entry/Exit System will register non-EU nationals each time they are visiting European countries. Travelers will be able to check the number of days they are allowed to stay in Europe. It will make passport control faster and will replace the need for passports to be stamped.

travel-europe.europa.eu

Right at the beginning it says: "Entry/Exit system is currently not in operation."

They will announce soon enough when the EES will start in earnest for Camino travellers to Spain and France.

 

[C clearly]

What is the takeaway information for pilgrims here?
Don't forget to take your fingers and your valid passports with you when you travel across borders. Starting now, all through 2024 and 2025, and probably indefinitely!

 

[TravellingMan22]

What is the takeaway information for pilgrims here?
Don't forget to take your fingers and your valid passports with you when you travel across borders. Starting now, all through 2024 and 2025, and probably indefinitely!

Indeed! The processes for UK folk to enter USA, Australia et all have improved hugely and no doubt this will be a great step forward. Not bad for €7 for 3 years.

 

[sprinto]

Not happening until early 2025 now

 

[MickMac]

Indeed (though with rule 3 in mind) it is a highly political topic and the two newsapers running it as a ‘major’ today, are from opposite sides of the political divide and reporting it accordingly!

Rule 3 enlighten me please.

 

[MickMac]

Not happening until early 2025 now

That's for US and Canada, big bang for other countries Nov 2024.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Rule 3 enlighten me please.

Rules of talking about such things as politics on here. Not allowed, so in my case try to point that reporting around this subject is very politically driven without sharing viewpoint/criticism. Not sure where boundary is so for example today one media outlet play it one way, and one play it another way based on their political viewpoints, who funds them, what there readers want to read, etc!

 

[sprinto]

That's for US and Canada, big bang for other countries Nov 2024.

Nope
Was in the euro news today pal

 

[C clearly]

Rule 3 enlighten me please.

There is a tab in the menu at the top of your screen, called "Forum Rules." Or click here. I think the reference should have been to Rule 2 (not Rule 3), related to political discussions.

 

[Tincatinker]

Rule 3 enlighten me please.

Try Rule 2: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/forum-rules-revised-july-2023.20973/

Meanwhile, intensified border control is coming to Schengen. One day, probably, when they get around to it. And it will make no difference whatsoever to the pilgrim experience or that of the Amsterdam stag party other than a one off experience of waiting to get fingerprinted and scanned. The average flight delay is likely longer. The crucial message here is don’t book a train ticket for less than two hours after your landing time until you’ve joined the cloud

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

And it will make no difference whatsoever to ... the Amsterdam stag party other than a one off experience of waiting to get fingerprinted ...

Possibly a two-off experience.

 

[WGroleau]

"Stamps will no longer be needed"

But will they be available? The stamps in my passport have some sentimental value. Knowing that my trip is enshrined in a couple of dozen bytes in a far away computer just won't have the same nostalgia value.

Maybe they could do like San Marino—put a colorful sticker in your passport for €5

 

[TravellingMan22]

"Stamps will no longer be needed"

But will they be available? The stamps in my passport have some sentimental value. Knowing that my trip is enshrined in a couple of dozen bytes in a far away computer just won't have the same nostalgia value.

Maybe they could do like San Marino—put a colorful sticker in your passport for €5

I don’t know but certainly a lot of UK folks love their passport stamped!!! Maybe a separate queue for a stamp on arrival for a small fee?! Many sporting events still let you buy a souvenir ticket for a small fee even though you can get it for free on your mobile!

 

[Kathar1na]

British Camino pilgrims and other British tourists travelled to Spain in their millions during the past decades without getting a stamp in their passports and the same goes for the French, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Germans, the Austrians, the Swiss and many more from Europe. Did anybody ever dream of even asking for a stamp? Optional stamps will not be provided for and you will get over it, I am sure.

So many seem to be occupied with the EU’s EES and ETIAS. How come that hardly anyone is talking about the UK’s future ETA (Electronic Travel Authorisation) system which is currently in the process of being introduced? They have already developed the app and you could download it. “In the future, the scheme will apply worldwide to those who do not currently need a visa to visit or transit through the UK or who do not hold a UK immigration status, including nationals from Europe and America”, says the UK government on their website. The fee will be £10 with a validity of two years.

 

[Kathar1na]

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/electronic-travel-authorisations-whats-the-eta/

Of potential interest to those who want to walk in Britain or transit through a UK airport. In place for all relevant nationalities by the end of 2024, it says.

 

[TravellingMan22]

British Camino pilgrims and other British tourists travelled to Spain in their millions during the past decades without getting a stamp in their passports and the same goes for the French, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Germans, the Austrians, the Swiss and many more from Europe. Did anybody ever dream of even asking for a stamp? Optional stamps will not be provided for and you will get over it, I am sure.

So many seem to be occupied with the EU’s EES and ETIAS. How come that hardly anyone is talking about the UK’s future ETA (Electronic Travel Authorisation) system which is currently in the process of being introduced? They have already developed the app and you could download it. “In the future, the scheme will apply worldwide to those who do not currently need a visa to visit or transit through the UK or who do not hold a UK immigration status, including nationals from Europe and America”, says the UK government on their website. The fee will be £10 with a validity of two years.

Indeed but people are strange folks!!! Stamps for seem to be a ‘thing’ for many. Not for me though! Tracking down entry/ exit stamps in some parts of the world can be a time consuming job!

 

[Kathar1na]

This is a bit funny, at least to me : So it was Simon Calder, Travel Correspondent, who somehow heard from the EuroTunnel operators that the 6th of October 2024 is THE date for the start of the EES. He wrote that he himself or the Independent contacted the European Commission for a confirmation but they are apparently still waiting for a reply and confirmation of their newest news which was subsequently copied and spread to other news media and websites.

Now a good place for info about many things EU/UK is www.connexionfrance.com. They are often well-informed. So they did contact, and got a reply from, an EU Commission spokesperson and from EU-Lisa who are the organisation that develops the whole EES thing. Both confirmed only what has been officially known anyway: Current planning says autumn 2024 without a specific date. In particular: An EU-LISA spokesperson also confirmed to us today [19 December] that the agency’s current ‘roadmap for implementation’, as endorsed by the Council on October 19-20, foresees ‘technical readiness’ being “reached in the autumn”.

Read it and savour it: "technical readiness". I think I know what it means. It does not mean "up and running for practical purposes".

 

[Bradypus]

I don’t know but certainly a lot of UK folks love their passport stamped!!!

Not me. Once the pages get filled up with stamps I might have to replace the passport prematurely. Which is a pain in the posterior!

 

[dick bird]

British travellers on first use is expected to launch next autumn, according to reports.

This is yet to be introduced passport checking technology that will be used on all incoming travellers who are not citizens of a Schengen signatory country, so will apply to US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand to name but a few. The i, Times and Guardian all name as their source the owners and operators of the Eurotunnel. How they know about it is anybody´s guess because there has been no official announcement. It probably won´t make a lot of difference to most of us as we don´t even take the ferry from the UK, let alone drive a car.

 

[dick bird]

Indeed. I guess the only thing is that when it finally does launch, people can easily find the official site. The number of fake sites for ESTA is quite something!! Oh and dealing with people who forget to do it!!

This is not ESTA, at least not directly. It is just new technology for passport checking although it is being put in place in readiness for ESTA.

 

[TravellingMan22]

This is not ESTA, at least not directly. It is just new technology for passport checking although it is being put in place in readiness for ESTA.

I was referring to the USA Visa Waiver site (Electronic System for Travel Authorization) that has been in place for many years, and the huge number of fake sites charging fees for the service that is quick, cheap and easy across the official site. Similar story Australia and Canada too. There will loads of similar sites for the EU version.

 

[Jeff Crawley]

The report was carried in the English Guardian news journal so its from a point of view of English citizens.

Fortune smiling for once on our Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish compatriots then!

 

[sprinto]

As i read it via European news feeds
the ETIAS will not start until 2025

 

[Glenshiro]

This could conceivably speed up entry for travellers to Spain/France or anywhere else in the Schengen area.

Earlier this year I travelled to Australia via Singapore. For each country I was required to fill in an online form, effectively a visa application/landing card. This took just a few minutes each time, and my Australian tourist visa was confirmed almost immediately. Singapore has no visa requirements for EU citizens, but Australia is a bit more fussy.

At both countries, as soon as I landed I was able to put my passport into an electronic reader which admitted me immediately, presumably having checked that I had obtained prior authorisation. The process couldn't have been shorter, and was considerably quicker than producing my passport to a human being to read and then insert into a machine reader.

Of course, I don't have any outstanding arrest warrants.

 

[Annette london]

Well as long as there are no restrictions for SANTA otherwise we will all be in trouble.

 

[chinacat]

British Camino pilgrims and other British tourists travelled to Spain in their millions during the past decades without getting a stamp in their passports and the same goes for the French, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Germans, the Austrians, the Swiss and many more from Europe. Did anybody ever dream of even asking for a stamp? Optional stamps will not be provided for and you will get over it, I am sure.

So many seem to be occupied with the EU’s EES and ETIAS. How come that hardly anyone is talking about the UK’s future ETA (Electronic Travel Authorisation) system which is currently in the process of being introduced? They have already developed the app and you could download it. “In the future, the scheme will apply worldwide to those who do not currently need a visa to visit or transit through the UK or who do not hold a UK immigration status, including nationals from Europe and America”, says the UK government on their website. The fee will be £10 with a validity of two years.

Am I correct in assuming that the UK future ETA will not apply to travel between RoI and the UK mainland?

Do the requirements for finger printing and facial recognition apply to travel between RoI and UK mainland?

 

[Tincatinker]

Am I correct in assuming that the UK future ETA will not apply to travel between RoI and the UK mainland?

Do the requirements for finger printing and facial recognition apply to travel between RoI and UK mainland?

??? That would kind of depend on so many yerbles it’s sort of fun. RoI isn’t in Schengen any more than the UK is so ESS and ETIAS apply when you hit Schengen. Whether ETA will apply on travel between the RoI and UK is made explicitly unclear in all the published information to date because the complete understanding of The Border is not yet complete.
That’s as far as I’m going. As a retired Mod I’m very aware of the sporting opportunities offered by Rule 2

 

[dougfitz]

I'd suggest that we just sit back and let it develop. And that we wait until the first person has actually travelled through an EES point of entry and had their fingerprints taken and their face scanned. Doesn't the US immigration service do this with non-US travellers and has done so for umpteen years?

Certainly 'smart gates' that read biometric data from the past couple of generation of passports have been in use in Australia for some years, and more recently in the UK for Australians. Fingerprint collection has also been a feature of the entry process for some countries, I think including the US, alongside entry photographs. Both photographs and fingerprints seem to be done at more traditional entry points, not those with smart gates. My observation is that where I have been through these processes, it adds very little time to the entry process. It has never been a major issue for me.

 

[Sue127]

Just the British? Are they a dodgy lot, coming over to France and taking all their cheese?

at the moment, cheese can go from France to the UK, but not the other way around, how bizarre is that!

 

[Sue127]

Dover is a massive port. If somebody would ask me for advice I would recommend to travel through Newhaven instead. It is a cozy little port. You'll get on the boat quickly and the EU checkpoint is in Dieppe. My only wish is that they will then finally separate the lines for cars with EU drivers from the cars with non-EU drivers and we can zoom through without delay. Roll-on roll-off as it should be.

They did try that on one crossing that my OH was on during the year, but the last time I went it was back to a free for all.

 

[Sue127]

What is the takeaway information for pilgrims here?
Don't forget to take your fingers and your valid passports with you when you travel across borders. Starting now, all through 2024 and 2025, and probably indefinitely!

That's fine; I usually have fingers and passport when travelling, so no change there

 

[Sue127]

British Camino pilgrims and other British tourists travelled to Spain in their millions during the past decades without getting a stamp in their passports and the same goes for the French, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Germans, the Austrians, the Swiss and many more from Europe. Did anybody ever dream of even asking for a stamp? Optional stamps will not be provided for and you will get over it, I am sure.

So many seem to be occupied with the EU’s EES and ETIAS. How come that hardly anyone is talking about the UK’s future ETA (Electronic Travel Authorisation) system which is currently in the process of being introduced? They have already developed the app and you could download it. “In the future, the scheme will apply worldwide to those who do not currently need a visa to visit or transit through the UK or who do not hold a UK immigration status, including nationals from Europe and America”, says the UK government on their website. The fee will be £10 with a validity of two years.

The UK only issue passport stamps on arrival, not leaving. This has been confirmed by the border police only last week.

 

[Tincatinker]

at the moment, cheese can go from France to the UK, but not the other way around, how bizarre is that!

There is a touch of the “bent cucumber” about that. I regularly ship a favoured cheese to an old friend trapped on the continent by the constraints of old-age and property ownership. The package arrives without impediment. No douanier has ever enquired the presence of cheese in my Bagages on any recent venture. Nor oysters for that matter, not that I’ve tried. The absence of “universal cheddar” from French and Spanish fromage/ queso retailers has more, I think, to do with local taste than cross-border import control

 

[Sue127]

There is a touch of the “bent cucumber” about that. I regularly ship a favoured cheese to an old friend trapped on the continent by the constraints of old-age and property ownership. The package arrives without impediment. No douanier has ever enquired the presence of cheese in my Bagages on any recent venture. Nor oysters for that matter, not that I’ve tried. The absence of “universal cheddar” from French and Spanish fromage/ queso retailers has more, I think, to do with local taste than cross-border import control

Mature cheddar is available (at twice the asking price in the UK) and yes, after huge amounts of scaremongering, the customs are definitely more interested in stowaways, odd wires under car bonnets and child smuggling (I have to remember to have my letters of authorisation to collect grandchildren). Sorry, a bit off the OP

 

[trevorcc]

Sorry, but I see more things to concern us than finger prints and a photo, like the price of vino tinto going up, come on folks.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Sorry, but I see more things to concern us than finger prints and a photo, like the price of vino tinto going up, come on folks.

You must be a relative of @Turga.

 

[chinacat]

??? That would kind of depend on so many yerbles it’s sort of fun. RoI isn’t in Schengen any more than the UK is so ESS and ETIAS apply when you hit Schengen. Whether ETA will apply on travel between the RoI and UK is made explicitly unclear in all the published information to date because the complete understanding of The Border is not yet complete.
That’s as far as I’m going. As a retired Mod I’m very aware of the sporting opportunities offered by Rule 2

Thanks Tinca

Bit of a muddle, isn’t it?

 

[Baba John]

This could conceivably speed up entry for travellers to Spain/France or anywhere else in the Schengen area.

Earlier this year I travelled to Australia via Singapore. For each country I was required to fill in an online form, effectively a visa application/landing card. This took just a few minutes each time, and my Australian tourist visa was confirmed almost immediately. Singapore has no visa requirements for EU citizens, but Australia is a bit more fussy.

At both countries, as soon as I landed I was able to put my passport into an electronic reader which admitted me immediately, presumably having checked that I had obtained prior authorisation. The process couldn't have been shorter, and was considerably quicker than producing my passport to a human being to read and then insert into a machine reader.

Of course, I don't have any outstanding arrest warrants.

That we know of...

 

[donalomahony]

Am I correct in assuming that the UK future ETA will not apply to travel between RoI and the UK mainland?

Do the requirements for finger printing and facial recognition apply to travel between RoI and UK mainland?

Common travel area...

Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK

This page discusses the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK, an area which is not specifically provided for in legislation.

www.citizensinformation.ie

Award of Forum rules, so I'll stay

 

[Bristle Boy]

When the ETIAS system is implemented and operational and all the dust settled it will be what it is. It is understandable that it is a subject for discussion and will have been implemented for many reasons (one being that it is revenue producing).
I don't see many criticisms as it is a prerogative of the EU to administer its jurisdiction as it sees fit.
One good reason why visa systems of other jurisdictions and sovereign states are not discussed (the UK as one post has done previously) is that this is the caminodeSantiago forum and those participating will do so by arriving (and departing) from mainland Europe and within the European Community and therefore affected by ETIAS.
Having my photograph taken will not cause me much angst as my Costco membership card also requires it and the dates and duration of my visits are stored on their database.

 

[Kathar1na]

The UK only issue passport stamps on arrival, not leaving. This has been confirmed by the border police only last week.

I am curious because I don't quite understand.

I've travelled to the UK this year as well as last year (via London or Newhaven). Now that we can no longer use our national ID cards I use my EU passport. I've never received a stamp whether it was arrival or departure. The last time I left the UK via St Pancras (either in 2023 or 2022, I can't remember), I had to pass the two border control booths (I think) where my passport was checked each time and then there was another channel (perhaps only for us foreigners) just before the large waiting hall where my photo was taken. That was new.

 

[Kathar1na]

Newhaven, btw, is a great entry point for a pilgrimage to Winchester along the South Downs trail or the rediscovered Old Way that has recently been redeveloped by the British Pilgrimage Trust. We are doing it in small instalments and have covered about half of the distance. We started in Eastbourne.

 

[Sue127]

I am curious because I don't quite understand.

I've travelled to the UK this year as well as last year (via London or Newhaven). Now that we can no longer use our national ID cards I use my EU passport. I've never received a stamp whether it was arrival or departure. The last time I left the UK via St Pancras (either in 2023 or 2022, I can't remember), I had to pass the two border control booths (I think) where my passport was checked each time and

there was another channel (perhaps only for us foreigners) just before the large waiting hall where my photo was taken. That was new.

I travelled with my friend who résides in France but has an Armenian passport. As such, she needs a visa to enter the Uk. Her passport is stamped on entry, but not on exit. When we queried it, before returning to France for a second time, the border police confirmed that there is no stamp when exiting the UK. I have no problem, having dual nationality and so, two passports.

 

[Kathar1na]

Am I correct in assuming that the UK future ETA will not apply to travel between RoI and the UK mainland?
Do the requirements for finger printing and facial recognition apply to travel between RoI and UK mainland?

British and Irish nationals don't have to get an ETA, just as EU nationals don't have to get an ETIAS.

As to travelling by airplane to the EU for foreigners: ETIAS happens at home before departure and will cost €7. EES happens at the airport and is free of charge.

As to the general idea of the British ETA, this is from the Independent, just for info and entertainment . It will concern those who travel on flights to a Camino in Spain or France with transit in Heathrow:

The UK government has decided to become an outlier by insisting that all connecting travellers must obtain an ETA. This will make London Heathrow airport a more challenging transit hub than the main continental European competitors, plus airports such as Istanbul and Dubai.​

​

The almost-worldwide convention is that passengers who are connecting from one gate to another at a hub – not passing through passport control – need only meet the requirements for their final destination.​

​

But when the ETA scheme takes full effect, all passengers except British and Irish nationals will need a permit – even if they are simply switching from one British Airways plane to another at Heathrow Terminal 5, or making a Star Alliance connection at Terminal 2.​

 

[chinacat]

@Kathar1na


This is the sort of occasion for which I wish Ivar had a ‘raised eyes’ emoji among the responses.

 

[MickMac]

??? That would kind of depend on so many yerbles it’s sort of fun. RoI isn’t in Schengen any more than the UK is so ESS and ETIAS apply when you hit Schengen. Whether ETA will apply on travel between the RoI and UK is made explicitly unclear in all the published information to date because the complete understanding of The Border is not yet complete.
That’s as far as I’m going. As a retired Mod I’m very aware of the sporting opportunities offered by Rule 2

Travel between Ireland and Britain is part of an agreed common travel area, with no restrictions.
Ireland is an EU member and travel to our European mainland is covered by freedom of movement, no restrictions are involved.
Hope this clarifies this, travel arrangements also cover people born on the Island of Ireland and are entitled to an Irish passport the same freedoms apply.

 

[Bristle Boy]

@Kathar1na


This is the sort of occasion for which I wish Ivar had a ‘raised eyes’ emoji among the responses.

One of those ocassions when I have to agree. Why on earth should a connecting passenger who remains airside and is merely in transit have any need to obtain a visa when they have no intention of entering the country.
Raised eyes indeed.
Some things defy common sense.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

This is the sort of occasion for which I wish Ivar had a ‘raised eyes’ emoji among the responses.

I love emojis and use them often. I think I recall that someone on the forum recently mentioned they are a bit childish,, but I often think they can help the intention/inflection of a post...plus I think they are fun to use!

 

[Kathar1na]

@Kathar1na
This is the sort of occasion for which I wish Ivar had a ‘raised eyes’ emoji among the responses.

I think that the USA has the same system as the UK intends to implement. The son of a former colleague of mine got held in custody at the airport in the USA for several hours, maybe even overnight (I can't remember), because he had not applied and paid for an ESTA. He had not been aware of the requirement. If I remember correctly, it was a flight from Paris to Nicaragua with a transit in Miami. He had not planned to spend any time in the USA. It was very stressful for this young guy and his mother.

Yep, see here: You must apply for an ESTA even if you are only transiting the U.S. immediately on your way to another country.

 

[trecile]

One of those ocassions when I have to agree. Why on earth should a connecting passenger who remains airside and is merely in transit have any need to obtain a visa when they have no intention of entering the country.
Raised eyes indeed.
Some things defy common sense.

I think that the USA has the same system as the UK intends to implement. The son of a former colleague of mine got held in custody at the airport for several hours, maybe even overnight, because he had not applied and paid for an ESTA. He had not been aware of the requirement. If I remember correctly, it was a flight from Paris to Nicaragua with a transit in Miami. It was very stressful for the guy and his mother

Yes, that is how it is for passengers transiting the US. I'm surprised that the son was even able to board the flight to the use without an ESTA.

But it's my understanding that the reason why passengers who are only transiting in the US need an ESTA is because there are no secure international transit areas at US airports as there are in European airports. Upon departing an international flight all passengers must pick up any checked bags, go through Immigration and Customs, then pass through security again before heading to their next flight. At this point they have "entered" the US, and there is no secure channel for them to continue to their gate. They could simply leave the airport. Therefore every passenger needs to qualify to enter the country, whether in transit to another country or not.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Yes, that is how it is for passengers transiting the US. I'm surprised that the son was even able to board the flight to the use without an ESTA.

But it's my understanding that the reason why passengers who are only transiting in the US need an ESTA is because there are no secure international transit areas at US airports as there are in European airports. Upon departing an international flight all passengers must pick up any checked bags, go through Immigration and Customs, then pass through security again before heading to their next flight. At this point they have "entered" the US, and there is no secure channel for them to continue to their gate. They could simply leave the airport. Therefore every passenger needs to qualify to enter the country, whether in transit to another country or not.

Thank you for that explanation. There is usually a reason not apparent at first glance.
Having only travelled through US immigration once, and on a mercy mission at very short notice, needing (and having) an ESTA. An experience I never want to repeat....but that's another story not relevant to the thread.

 

[Sue127]

Travel between Ireland and Britain is part of an agreed common travel area, with no restrictions.
Ireland is an EU member and travel to our European mainland is covered by freedom of movement, no restrictions are involved.
Hope this clarifies this, travel arrangements also cover people born on the Island of Ireland and are entitled to an Irish passport the same freedoms apply.

Can you clarify one thing please, @MickMac.. If there is freedom of movement between N Ireland and Ireland for UK passport holders, if someone then left Ireland, to go to mainland EU, is that noted in their passport? Just curious as I have freedom of movement to both.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

If there is freedom of movement between N Ireland and Ireland for UK passport holders

There is freedom of movement for US passport holders. We passed through immigration at London, flew to Belfast, drove to Éire. The only requirement we had going from NI to RoI was to note the difference between the currency and the flags.

 

[Sue127]

There is freedom of movement for US passport holders. We passed through immigration at London, flew to Belfast, drove to Éire. The only requirement we had going from NI to RoI was to note the difference between the currency and the flags.

That bit I understand, it was if a UK passport holder wanted to fly or take the ferry to France, for example, from R of Ireland, what would happen at passport control as they are already technically in the EU?

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

That bit I understand, it was if a UK passport holder wanted to fly or take the ferry to France, for example, from R of Ireland, what would happen at passport control as they are already technically in the EU?

I see. Good question in that UK and Irish passport holders are transiting from Ireland, an EU country to the EU (repeating you) but, at the same time, you are entering the Schengen zone from a non-Schengen nation.

 

[MickMac]

Can you clarify one thing please, @MickMac.. If there is freedom of movement between N Ireland and Ireland for UK passport holders, if someone then left Ireland, to go to mainland EU, is that noted in their passport? Just curious as I have freedom of movement to both.

Just for clarity, you are referring to non EU passport holder passengers for EES checks. EU passport holders wont have EES checks. (I think this is what you meant anyway) even leaving though Ireland will not exempt traveler from application of EES checks if you have not got EU member country passport.
No back door I am afraid for non EU passport holders from Ireland.

 

[dougfitz]

That bit I understand, it was if a UK passport holder wanted to fly or take the ferry to France, for example, from R of Ireland, what would happen at passport control as they are already technically in the EU?

As I understand it, the controls are in place for the Schengen Zone, not for the EU. There may still be arrangements for travellers from the EU that are no longer available to UK citizens. I generally find the signage at entry points makes it clear which pathway one needs to take on arrival.

 

[MickMac]

As I understand it, the controls are in place for the Schengen Zone, not for the EU. There may still be arrangements for travellers from the EU that are no longer available to UK citizens. I generally find the signage at entry points makes it clear which pathway one needs to take on arrival.

Doug there will be no restrictions for EU passport holders it will be the same as now.

 

[dougfitz]

Doug there will be no restrictions for EU passport holders it will be the same as now.

Are you expecting these arrangements to be similar to those that once applied to UK citizens before the UK left the EU? My experience then was that there separate entry paths for EU (incl UK) citizens and travellers from other countries. More recently arriving in the UK and with smart gates in place, Australians weren't required to join the long 'rest of the world' queue. The last time we had that privilege that I can recall was arriving in London in the late 70s.

 

[MickMac]

Once non EU citizens have met the EES criteria and submitted their facial scans, fingerprints, and passport detail and paid the appropiate fee, they will be able to use the smart gates which have been installed in most major airports and seaports.
This will increase ease of entry movement for non EU citizens, the EU citizens can move forward in their designated EU freedom of movement lanes.
The stay period will remain for all non EU citizens.

 

[WGroleau]

But it's my understanding that the reason why passengers who are only transiting in the US need an ESTA is because there are no secure international transit areas at US airports as there are in European airports. Upon departing an international flight all passengers must pick up any checked bags, go through Immigration and Customs, then pass through security again before heading to their next flight. At this point they have "entered" the US, and there is no secure channel for them to continue to their gate. They could simply leave the airport. Therefore every passenger needs to qualify to enter the country, whether in transit to another country or not.

Every time I've changed planes in a country other than my destination, I could have left the airport but never needed any paperwork for it. So, I see the rationale, but perhaps it's an overreaction to our national paranoia about immigration. A couple of times, I actually had enough time to go outside and back in and did so.

One exception was when I changed planes in Schengen with origin and destination non-Schengen and got entry and exit stamps—and two Schengen days because the two flights were before and after midnight!

 

[man.grangeburn]

The report was carried in the English Guardian news journal so its from a point of view of English citizens.

I am sorry, there is no such thing as an English citizen.

 

[Tincatinker]

I am sorry, there is no such thing as an English citizen.

¿Qué?; Quoi?; Was?; Beth?; וואס?; Nini?; D'y'what?

I'm English; though there are many that would dispute that. Born here. That makes me a citizen of England. It also makes me a citizen of the United Kingdom(s) (according to the Home Office that issues my passports) and a British citizen according to a few, including the very nice Ambassador in Kabul that got me out of a sticky one once.

I'll rely on being: "citizen: a person who was born in a particular country and has certain rights or has been given certain rights because of having lived there"

 

[David61]

What is the takeaway information for pilgrims here?
Don't forget to take your fingers and your valid passports with you when you travel across borders. Starting now, all through 2024 and 2025, and probably indefinitely!

It is part of the ETIAS system being introduced which needs to be applied for in advance for non EU citizens and there will be a fee of 7 euro
When filling out the application, you will be asked to provide the following information:

• Personal information including your name(s), surname, date and place of birth, nationality, home address, parents’ first names, email address and phone number;
• Travel document details;
• Details about your level of education and current occupation;
• Details about your intended travel and stay in any of the countries requiring ETIAS;
• Details about any criminal convictions, any past travels to war or conflict zones, and whether you have recently been subject of a decision requiring you to leave the territory of any country.

I should point out that this is not in effect as yet, probably late 2024

 

[MickMac]

It is part of the ETIAS system being introduced which needs to be applied for in advance for non EU citizens and there will be a fee of 7 euro
When filling out the application, you will be asked to provide the following information:

• Personal information including your name(s), surname, date and place of birth, nationality, home address, parents’ first names, email address and phone number;
• Travel document details;
• Details about your level of education and current occupation;
• Details about your intended travel and stay in any of the countries requiring ETIAS;
• Details about any criminal convictions, any past travels to war or conflict zones, and whether you have recently been subject of a decision requiring you to leave the territory of any country.

I should point out that this is not in effect as yet, probably late 2024

Facial scans and fingerprints.

 

[C clearly]

It is part of the ETIAS system being introduced which needs to be applied for in advance for non EU citizens and there will be a fee of 7 euro

Yes. When people buy their plane tickets, the airline will likely be reminding them to check any other paperwork that is needed when they check in. The airline does not want to reject passengers at check-in!

At this time, there is no need to prepare in any way.

 

[trecile]

It is part of the ETIAS system being introduced which needs to be applied for in advance for non EU citizens and there will be a fee of 7 euro
When filling out the application, you will be asked to provide the following information:

• Personal information including your name(s), surname, date and place of birth, nationality, home address, parents’ first names, email address and phone number;
• Travel document details;
• Details about your level of education and current occupation;
• Details about your intended travel and stay in any of the countries requiring ETIAS;
• Details about any criminal convictions, any past travels to war or conflict zones, and whether you have recently been subject of a decision requiring you to leave the territory of any country.

I should point out that this is not in effect as yet, probably late 2024

According to the official EU ETIAS site it won't happen until at least mid 2025.

ETIAS

Official EU website on ETIAS, the new travel authorisation for visa-exempt travellers to enter 30 European countries. Applications should be filled in this website from mid-2025.

travel-europe.europa.eu

 

[J F Gregory]

The EES is not just for British nationals but for all TCNs (what the EU calls third country nationals, i.e. British, Americans, Canadians, Australians and about 55+ other nationalities). The EES will be introduced at all external EU borders - sea, air, land. Your passports will no longer get stamped. It is not a Brexit thing.

Nobody knows much about the delays that the introduction of the EES system will actually cause for TCN travellers who travel to an EU Schengen country for the first time under the EES system. Whether all countries and all their airports, seaports, and terrestrial crossings that mark an external EU border will be ready by the autumn of 2024 or not. They will have to communicate yes or no by August 2024.

That the Dover port authorities have been concerned about EES related delays in view of Channel crossings and that the French government has been concerned about EES related delays in view of foreign visitors arriving by air or sea for the Olympic Games in the summer of 2024 has been in the news for a long time, at least for 12 months and longer.

Currently, the "big" news is the fact that there is, for the first time, mention of a date: 6 October 2024. Whether this is an official EU wide start or merely the start of test runs in Dover is anyone's guess.

I'd suggest that we just sit back and let it develop. And that we wait until the first person has actually travelled through an EES point of entry and had their fingerprints taken and their face scanned. Doesn't the US immigration service do this with non-US travellers and has done so for umpteen years?

The U S only at this point look and stamp passports from other countries.

 

[Bristle Boy]

¿Qué?; Quoi?; Was?; Beth?; וואס?; Nini?; D'y'what?

I'm English; though there are many that would dispute that. Born here. That makes me a citizen of England. It also makes me a citizen of the United Kingdom(s) (according to the Home Office that issues my passports) and a British citizen according to a few, including the very nice Ambassador in Kabul that got me out of a sticky one once.

I'll rely on being: "citizen: a person who was born in a particular country and has certain rights or has been given certain rights because of having lived there"

Just for a bit of fun and ponder as I will...
I too am English by birth and when asked to state my nationality I state this on all forms requiring that I do so.
When I am asked about citizenship I reply British. This has been the case since 1707 and the Acts of Union. I have never replied that I am an English Citizen...I am British. I am in allegiance to the Crown and to my country of birth. I live in a Sovereign democracy ruled by the Crown.
My British citizenship is permanent. It is who I am and defined by birth. It is not governed by where I live or my description would change and become fluid.
If i moved to Scotland or Wales i would remain a British citizen. It is permanent.
I travel on a British passport. When in trouble I seek help from a British Embassy. I pay my British taxes and live on the Island that is Great Britain. My nationality may be English but when it comes to citizenship...i am British.

 

[Kathar1na]

There is occasionally at bit of a mix up between the EU’s future EES and the EU’s future ETIAS in this thread. In a nutshell:

EES: Fingerprints and face scan. Free of charge. At the airport. For EU foreigners. Planned to start in the fall of 2024. Perhaps on 6 October. Perhaps in all EU international airports and EU international seaports or only in some at first, depending on whether they go for a slow rollout or a big bang rollout.

ETIAS: Online application to be filled in. A €7 fee. Done at home before departure. For visa exempt EU foreigners. Planned to start 6 monts after the start of EES. If EES starts in fall 2024, then ETIAS will start in spring 2025. If EES starts after the fall 2024 then ETIAS will start after the spring of 2025.

Edited to add: “For visa exempt EU foreigners“ means the EU foreigners without a visa and with the 90 days out of 180 days rule.

 

[Drumbo_hiker]

I have just read all of this thread and my brain hurts. Obviously I can only speak for me, I am going to wait and watch. I worked in IT for 40 years and I have a healthy scepticism regarding any dates published by government agencies.

Merry Christmas to you all

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I have just read all of this thread and my brain hurts. Obviously I can only speak for me, I am going to wait and watch. I worked in IT for 40 years and I have a healthy scepticism regarding any dates published by government agencies.

Merry Christmas to you all

I'm with you, pal, on that..my noggin hurts, too.

 

[Kathar1na]

I have a healthy scepticism regarding any dates published by government agencies.

It‘s the “travel news” producers in the news media and we on social media who are making most of the fuss about it.

 

[man.grangeburn]

¿Qué?; Quoi?; Was?; Beth?; וואס?; Nini?; D'y'what?

I'm English; though there are many that would dispute that. Born here. That makes me a citizen of England. It also makes me a citizen of the United Kingdom(s) (according to the Home Office that issues my passports) and a British citizen according to a few, including the very nice Ambassador in Kabul that got me out of a sticky one once.

I'll rely on being: "citizen: a person who was born in a particular country and has certain rights or has been given certain rights because of having lived there"

Precisely, my point being that officially the term is British Citizen as in anyone born in England, for travel purposes overseas, is a British Citizen. I thought the post was relating to international 3rd country travel and the EU?

 

[Bristle Boy]

Precisely, my point being that officially the term is British Citizen as in anyone born in England, for travel purposes overseas, is a British Citizen. I thought the post was relating to international 3rd country travel and the EU?

You were right the first time.

 

[WGroleau]

I have just read all of this thread and my brain hurts. Obviously I can only speak for me, I am going to wait and watch. I worked in IT for 40 years and I have a healthy scepticism regarding any dates published by government agencies.

This retired software engineer agrees. Our USA "real ID" mandate has been postponed more than once. Part of my career, though, was in health care, and USA was on ICD-9 code ages after Europe was on ICD-10.

 

[RuthPenfold]

There is occasionally at bit of a mix up between the EU’s future EES and the EU’s future ETIAS in this thread. In a nutshell:

EES: Fingerprints and face scan. Free of charge. At the airport. For EU foreigners. Planned to start in the fall of 2024. Perhaps on 6 October. Perhaps in all EU international airports and EU international seaports or only in some at first, depending on whether they go for a slow rollout or a big bang rollout.

ETIAS: Online application to be filled in. A €7 fee. Done at home before departure. For visa exempt EU foreigners. Planned to start 6 monts after the start of EES. If EES starts in fall 2024, then ETIAS will start in spring 2025. If EES starts after the fall 2024 then ETIAS will start after the spring of 2025.

Edited to add: “For visa exempt EU foreigners“ means the EU foreigners without a visa and with the 90 days out of 180 days rule.

Hi, thanks for this summary, it helped clear a few things. Do you happen to know if the timelines are still looking like late 2024/2025 for the ETIAS/EES bit? I'm a South African but have a British passport and will travel on it for my camino. I'm planning to walk the Camino Frances from 23 April 2024, then go to Portugal for 2 weeks to walk some of the camino there before returning to Spain for another 21 days. I'll exit for SA on the 1st of July so 70 days in the EU in total; I am struggling to get absolute clarity on if this itinerary meets the 90 days out of 180 days rule. I find it a bit ambiguous the way the Spanish consulate rules state it. Not sure if I am being particularly stupid! Based on my itinerary above do you know if I will be able to exit and then re-enter Spain like this on my UK passport without any need for a visa? Thanks in advance for any clarity you or anyone else can bring.

 

[Tincatinker]

Hi, thanks for this summary, it helped clear a few things. Do you happen to know if the timelines are still looking like late 2024/2025 for the ETIAS/EES bit? I'm a South African but have a British passport and will travel on it for my camino. I'm planning to walk the Camino Frances from 23 April 2024, then go to Portugal for 2 weeks to walk some of the camino there before returning to Spain for another 21 days. I'll exit for SA on the 1st of July so 70 days in the EU in total; I am struggling to get absolute clarity on if this itinerary meets the 90 days out of 180 days rule. I find it a bit ambiguous the way the Spanish consulate rules state it. Not sure if I am being particularly stupid! Based on my itinerary above do you know if I will be able to exit and then re-enter Spain like this on my UK passport without any need for a visa? Thanks in advance for any clarity you or anyone else can bring.

The entry / re-entry is Schengen, not Spain, or Portugal. You're planning to spend 70 days in Schengen out of the 90 available to you. You do not have a problem.

 

[Kathar1na]

I'll exit for SA on the 1st of July so 70 days in the EU in total; I am struggling to get absolute clarity on if this itinerary meets the 90 days out of 180 days rule. I find it a bit ambiguous the way the Spanish consulate rules state it. Not sure if I am being particularly stupid!

Welcome to the forum, @RuthPenfold!

As @Tincatinker has already confirmed, your itinerary meets the 90 days out of 180 days rule.

During your stay of 70 days you can move between Spain and Portugal as often as you like.

I don't know how the Spanish consulate has stated the rules. Government websites often just quote laws or use legal language and this is not particularly user friendly. Just in case: When they speak of something like "entry conditions" in this context, they mean entry of persons travelling from non-EU countries like the UK or South Africa to Spain. They don't mean travel from Portugal or France to Spain and vice versa.

As to the future: The EES/ETIAS system will leave the 90 days out of 180 days rule unchanged.

Buen Camino!

 

[RuthPenfold]

Welcome to the forum, @RuthPenfold!

As @Tincatinker has already confirmed, your itinerary meets the 90 days out of 180 days rule.

During your stay of 70 days you can move between Spain and Portugal as often as you like.

I don't know how the Spanish consulate has stated the rules. Government websites often just quote laws or use legal language and this is not particularly user friendly. Just in case: When they speak of something like "entry conditions" in this context, they mean entry of persons travelling from non-EU countries like the UK or South Africa to Spain. They don't mean travel from Portugal or France to Spain and vice versa.

As to the future: The EES/ETIAS system will leave the 90 days out of 180 days rule unchanged.

Buen Camino!

Thank you both for the clarity. That's a relief

 

[hunsta]

I see the website is now stating Mid 2025 for the start of this.

 

[henrythedog]

I see the website is now stating Mid 2025 for the start of this.

That’s perfectly normal. The planned implementation date has been between one and two years from the present day for the last five or more years.

 

[Kathar1na]

We can soon celebrate our 5th forum anniversary of announcing the introduction of ETIAS, of fretting about it, of fearing or predicting the demise of tourism to Europe because of it, of calming nerves, and generally commenting on it. The first ETIAS thread was started on March 7, 2019.

the website is now stating Mid 2025 for the start of this.

And some groups of travellers, for example those who travel to the EU for the very first time, may not even have to pay the mandatory ETIAS fee before 2026 because first there will be a transitional period of at least 6 months and then there will be a grace period of again at least 6 months.

You can read more details about these stages in the News section on the website. I will quote only one line from this website:

There is only one official ETIAS website: europa.eu/etias

 

[Kathar1na]

@hunsta, I don’t quite understand the emoji. There has been no change or delay in the published timeline since the first post of this thread: The EES is still scheduled to start in October 2024. ETIAS is still scheduled to start 6 months after the introduction of the EES. The thread title refers to the EES.

EES and ETIAS are linked but they are two completely different data collection and processing systems. The EES (Entry/Exit System) is the big and ambitious one. It will hit travellers and airports and the port administration in Dover first.

 

[Kathar1na]

I am always curious why there are news about the EES and ETIAS which is then reflected on the forum.

Perhaps because a few weeks ago the Mayor of London called on the British government to take action and warned "about potential chaos facing passengers using Eurostar"? And the British Coach industry called a few days ago "for change to Dover Entry/Exit System plans" - the port of Dover has juxtaposed border controls. Such national news often have a wider repercussion in international media.

A Guardian article about concerns about how Dover will manage lead to the start of this thread.