Permethrin

[Kanga]

When I had a bed bug incident the hospitalera of the next albergue that I stayed in put everything that could go in a dryer into a hot dryer. She sprayed everything else with DEET, including my backpack. The DEET de-laminated the fabric inside the backpack.

Yes, it does this. We made our daughter use the super strength stuff (80%) when she was in the Amazon jungle, but she had to take great care not to get it on anything nylon or plastic. And then she complained bitterly that she smelt of the stuff for ages afterwards, and none of her friends would come near her. But she wasn't bitten by anything!

I've seen reports that DEET does repel bedbugs but it has to be the concentrated formula and frequently reapplied. Not my idea of fun.

 

[dougfitz]

I've seen reports that DEET does repel bedbugs but it has to be the concentrated formula and frequently reapplied. Not my idea of fun.

There is a circa 2013 study published in the Journal of Economic Entomology into several different compounds, including DEET, a couple of essential oils and some other natural repellents. These extracts are from the discussion:

We found DEET and three compounds from Bedoukian Research Inc. are effective repellents against bed bugs. At 25% or higher concentration, DEET can prevent 94% bed bugs from crossing the treated area for at least 8 h under high pest pressure (i.e., hungry bed bugs and a strong host cue were present). The findings suggest that applying a repellent to luggage, shoes, or clothing could be an effective method to avoid bed bug infestations by home visitors, pest control technicians, travelers, and other personnel who need to visit or work in bed bug-infested environments.

and

Some essential oils were reported having repellent properties against blood-sucking insects. Among them, white cedar oil and peppermint oil were most repellent against mosquitoes (Barnard 1999). In a different study, we evaluated repellency of two essential oil-based bed bug control products using the arena assay method: EcoRaider (Reneotech Inc., North Bergen, NJ) and Bed Bug Patrol (Nature's Innovation Inc., Buford, GA). EcoRaider contains 1% cedar oil and Bed Bug Patrol contains 1% peppermint oil. Both these two products did not exhibit signifcant repellency against bed bugs (Singh and Wang, unpublished data). Based on these findings, it is unlikely that low concentration essential oils will be useful as bed bug repellents.

Elsewhere they observed that a 2.5 cm band of each of the repellents was sufficient, and increasing the width of the band did not improve the repellency:

These results imply that applying a narrow band of repellent may significantly reduce the probability of obtaining bed bugs while a human host is staying in a bed bug-infested room.

This would be significant at night, where it would indicate one doesn't need to cover ones body with DEET, but could just apply it to around cuffs, collars and waistbands.

 

[ivar]

I see I did not take into consideration the sequence by which discussion matters are handled via your forum. New person. I do enjoy the information immensely because without it, I could not figure out how to approach "my" Cameno. Bed bugs can be a problem in your locale but mine are akin to ticks, fleas, possums, squirrels and other critters of the southern forests of the USA. Truthfully it is all serious to keep us healthy along our journey. So I am taking into my planning things I have no experience with to date.

My only difficulty so far is figuring out how to get out of Santiago de Compestallo to to Lourdes in France. l have Fatima figured out via Lisbon. I so want to see Lisbon which is my starting point.

Honestly I have tried to make a contribution to the support of the efforts of IVAR but have been twarted because of "fraud" suspicions from my credit card issuer. Can you send me the steps to help with the money to support your operation.

I bought the Santiago and Pourtugese travel guides and the iberian peninsula map. Glad I did. What an awesome trail system.

Whiteblaze a/k/a Blueblaze - very long story!

Enjoy you daya

Hi there,

Thank you for thinking of me!

You can donate to the forum (me) here:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/account/upgrades/

or here:

Camino Forum Donation

After you have made your donation it might take a few hours before you are added to the "Donating Member" group in the forum since I need to add you manually. 5 euro donation This donation includes: Advertisement will be removed for 1 month in the Camino Forum (website) You help the Camino...

www.santiagodecompostela.me

If this does not go though and your bank says that this is fraude, then there is nothing I can do really... you need to get in touch with your bank and let them know that it is not.... or try with a different card..

Sorry for making it so complicated... and Thank you!
Ivar

 

[Goyo]

I see I did not take into consideration the sequence by which discussion matters are handled via your forum. New person. I do enjoy the information immensely because without it, I could not figure out how to approach "my" Cameno. Bed bugs can be a problem in your locale but mine are akin to ticks, fleas, possums, squirrels and other critters of the southern forests of the USA. Truthfully it is all serious to keep us healthy along our journey. So I am taking into my planning things I have no experience with to date.

My only difficulty so far is figuring out how to get out of Santiago de Compestallo to to Lourdes in France. l have Fatima figured out via Lisbon. I so want to see Lisbon which is my starting point.

Honestly I have tried to make a contribution to the support of the efforts of IVAR but have been twarted because of "fraud" suspicions from my credit card issuer. Can you send me the steps to help with the money to support your operation.

I bought the Santiago and Pourtugese travel guides and the iberian peninsula map. Glad I did. What an awesome trail system.

Whiteblaze a/k/a Blueblaze - very long story!

Enjoy you daya

As one newbie to another, I know what you mean. This forum is a great place for gathering info to help one’s decision making process. And there is sooo much info, and sometimes some lively discussion surrounding it all. The great majority of what I’ve read during my short time as a member is truly given in the spirit of sharing. As it should be, no, for such an endeavor as we hope to accomplish? Good luck to you on yours!

 

[ydnicdraw]

Is Permethrin available in SJPDP. Not available where i live in Canada and i would like to treat my sleeping bag and liner.

Mike

Not sure. I did not use it and had only one minor brush with a possible bed bug in the albergue in Casa Reina. We simply switched rooms.

 

[Cleenjones]

I don’t know about St. Jean since it’s pretty small but it is available via Amazon if it’s permitted in Canada. Smart move to pre-treat your gear. I made a huge mistake one cold night and used an albergue blanket. I was covered in bites the next morning so you do have to protect yourself and use your own gear.

Hi there,
You can order permethrin from

Is Permethrin available in SJPDP. Not available where i live in Canada and i would like to treat my sleeping bag and liner.
Try Smith Army Surplus in Kingston On. They have a product called Mosquito Shield Clothing (0.50 % permethrin 525g). I ordered it from last summer and treated my gear before I left Canada.

 

[whiteblaze]

Hi there,

Thank you for thinking of me!

You can donate to the forum (me) here:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/account/upgrades/

or here:

Camino Forum Donation

After you have made your donation it might take a few hours before you are added to the "Donating Member" group in the forum since I need to add you manually. 5 euro donation This donation includes: Advertisement will be removed for 1 month in the Camino Forum (website) You help the Camino...

www.santiagodecompostela.me

If this does not go though and your bank says that this is fraude, then there is nothing I can do really... you need to get in touch with your bank and let them know that it is not.... or try with a different card..

Sorry for making it so complicated... and Thank you!
Ivar

Thank you very much. Enjoying the read from your following. Bed bugs, procession caterpillars, swimming pools etc. great information.
Can’t wait till I meet the real characters once I get there!

 

[Canucks]

Permethrin is available in Canada but it won’t be in a container labelled "Permethrin".
Go to your local Home Depot or Rona to the bug spray area and read the labels. I don’t recall the exact product name but it was for ants or spider control and had a good dose of permethrin as its active ingredient. Spray that on your sleep sack. Let dry. Good to go.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Permethrin is available in Canada but it won’t be in a container labelled "Permethrin".
Go to your local Home Depot or Rona to the bug spray area and read the labels. I don’t recall the exact product name but it was for ants or spider control and had a good dose of permethrin as its active ingredient. Spray that on your sleep sack. Let dry. Good to go.

Be cautious. Using a product for something other than its intended use may be dangerous. There could be other active and even inactive ingredients that, while not particularly dangerous sprayed on baseboards or in under sink cabinets, could cause problems if there is long term human contact.

 

[Canucks]

Be cautious. Using a product for something other than its intended use may be dangerous. There could be other active and even inactive ingredients that, while not particularly dangerous sprayed on baseboards or in under sink cabinets, could cause problems if there is long term human contact.

Yes, if someone was on caminos for years at a time, there could be a risk, I suppose. But for us, the possible risk of reading the label and making the decision to use a product on a sleep sack, only when we were concerned about bedbugs, a small amount of times in our lives, was worth it. It’s all about risk *management*. I would think the risk of getting hit by a car, injured by a fall, or murdered on the Camino is greater. But that’s just me.

 

[Esg]

A youth hostel liner was made to have a long 'bottom' section with a turn over that extended under one's head and shoulders. That could be used to pull over one's head and completely enclose the sleeper. Used with a hooded bag, it is a pretty complete solution. There are still going to be gaps where one gets in if one doesn't pull the top over but nothing like the ordinary liner designed to just fit in a non-hooded bag.

More, if they have to crawl over permethrin treated fabric, the evidence is that they are less likely to go on and consume a blood meal. Overall, one is better protected.

Hi dougfitz, I find interesting the solution of the hostel liner. At this point, I have read about three solutions:
1. use a sleeping bag silk liner. This assumes that the silk liner goes inside the sleeping bag, and the bugs have already entered the sleeping bag (maybe not if the bag has been treated with permethrin previously.)
2. a permethrin treated sheet on top of the bed and below the provided sheet and sleeping bag. This assumes that the treated sheet may stop the bugs from getting on top of the bed
3. use a youth hostel liner which I have not understand fully. Is there a picture of something more graphic to visualize it?
Would the ultimate solution be to use a permethrin treated sheet and a silk liner inside the sleeping bag or use the youth hostel liner? I am trying to find a simple effective way to prevent being bitten after inspecting the bed and thinking that it is bug-free. I appreciate comments.

 

[trecile]

This assumes that the treated sheet may stop the bugs from getting on top of the bed

As has been mentioned before, permethrin does not repel bedbugs nor kill them on contact. They need prolonged exposure (like a couple of hours or more) to a permethrin treated surface before they die.

 

[dick bird]

Yes, it does this. We made our daughter use the super strength stuff (80%) when she was in the Amazon jungle, but she had to take great care not to get it on anything nylon or plastic. And then she complained bitterly that she smelt of the stuff for ages afterwards, and none of her friends would come near her. But she wasn't bitten by anything!

I've seen reports that DEET does repel bedbugs but it has to be the concentrated formula and frequently reapplied. Not my idea of fun.

I'm relying on memory here*, but I think there was a research report that found DEET did indeed have a 'deterrent effect' on bedbugs. However, it seems it is not enough to actually stop them biting you. Apparently, they don't like it, but unlike mosquitos who can fly off and locate a tastier victim, bedbugs face the prospect of biting you or going without their next meal. So they bite you anyway. They will also bite you if your clothes are steeped in Permethrin, they just die a few hours afterwards so you don't infect the next place you stay at, or your own home.
Edit: *Dougfitz has a link to the article above on this thread.

 

[dick bird]

Hi dougfitz, I find interesting the solution of the hostel liner. At this point, I have read about three solutions:
1. use a sleeping bag silk liner. This assumes that the silk liner goes inside the sleeping bag, and the bugs have already entered the sleeping bag (maybe not if the bag has been treated with permethrin previously.)
2. a permethrin treated sheet on top of the bed and below the provided sheet and sleeping bag. This assumes that the treated sheet may stop the bugs from getting on top of the bed
3. use a youth hostel liner which I have not understand fully. Is there a picture of something more graphic to visualize it?
Would the ultimate solution be to use a permethrin treated sheet and a silk liner inside the sleeping bag or use the youth hostel liner? I am trying to find a simple effective way to prevent being bitten after inspecting the bed and thinking that it is bug-free. I appreciate comments.

The 'youth hostel liner' I think is a cotton type of sleeping bag liner, similar to a silk liner, only made of cotton (obviously). Nothing will really keep bedbugs out completely, or if it does it will probably asphyxiate the occupant. All you can hope to do is 1) spot them before they spot you (and you go somewhere else) and if 1) hasn't worked, 2) avoid taking them with you, which is what permethrin is quite good at, as is putting your stuff through a very hot tumble dryer. We just treat anything we're going to sleep in with permethrin and if there's any left over, our backpacks.

 

[dougfitz]

As has been mentioned before, permethrin does not repel bedbugs nor kill them on contact. They need prolonged exposure (like a couple of hours or more) to a permethrin treated surface before they die.

I don't know what evidence you have that such a long exposure is required to kill bed bugs. Earlier I referred to a study that indicated that a one minute exposure to ActiveGuard, a permethrin treated fabric used for mattress encasements, was sufficient to significantly reduce the likelihood of the bedbug attempting to feed by about half, and a 10 minute exposure further reduced this about another 10 times. That is, to around 2% of the rate were the fabric untreated. This particular study did not discuss whether there were differences between highly resistant and less resistant species.

A mortality study using the same fabric observed a mortality rate of 87% to 100% for non-resistant beg bug species within a day after just 30 minutes exposure. The mortality rate for the resistant species was only 4%.

I think these results provide a significant challenge to the view that, even with a permethrin treated liner or sleeping bag, bed bugs will still get a blood meal. If any do, it appears it will be a really quite small proportion of those that might using an untreated bag or liner. The effects of even a short period of contact are to reduce both the likelihood of attempting to feed, and then the likelihood of successfully feeding.

Edit: Here are the sources I have used:

Susan C. Jones, Joshua L. Bryant, Frances S. Sivakoff, Sublethal Effects of ActiveGuard Exposure on Feeding Behavior and Fecundity of the Bed Bug (Hemiptera: Cimicidae), Journal of Medical Entomology, Volume 52, Issue 3, May 2015, Pages 413–418, https://doi.org/10.1093/jme/tjv008

Jones SC, Bryant JL, Harrison SA. Behavioral Responses of the Bed Bug to Permethrin-Impregnated ActiveGuard™ Fabric. Insects. 2013 Jun 7;4(2):230-40. doi: 10.3390/insects4020230. PMID: 26464388; PMCID: PMC4553521.

 

[dougfitz]

Is there a picture of something more graphic to visualize it?

Try doing a Google search using 'youth hostel liner' then selecting images in the results.

 

[dougfitz]

Would the ultimate solution be to use a permethrin treated sheet and a silk liner inside the sleeping bag or use the youth hostel liner?

From a pilgrim perspective, I think a treated youth hostel liner is the most flexible approach. It can be used in albergues where there is no bedding or perhaps only blankets, or to supplement the disposable sheets if they are provided. If you do have a hooded sleeping bag, it can be used to cover one's head as well, although I suspect that outside of anywhere really cold, most people will sleep with their head exposed, reducing the effectiveness of the liner somewhat. In hostels, hotels, etc, you can still use a liner - bed bugs are just as likely to infect hotels as albergues.

If you are using a treated liner, wear pyjamas or underwear to protect the 'wet areas' of your body, and don't cover your mouth, nose and eyes with the liner.

You don't mention treating other gear. I would treat the seams of your pack in particular, as well as any packing cells if you are using these.

 

[David Tallan]

A youth hostel liner was made to have a long 'bottom' section with a turn over that extended under one's head and shoulders. That could be used to pull over one's head and completely enclose the sleeper. Used with a hooded bag, it is a pretty complete solution.

I've been using youth hostel liners since 1974 and I never understood the purpose of the "turn over" under the head and shoulders as something that could be flipped to cover the head. Rather, I've always understood it as a pocket to put the pillow in, so that the same item acts as bottom sheet, top sheet, and pillow cover. Of course, that can be more of a challenge with the long Spanish pillows.

 

[dougfitz]

I've been using youth hostel liners since 1974 and I never understood the purpose of the "turn over" under the head and shoulders as something that could be flipped to cover the head. Rather, I've always understood it as a pocket to put the pillow in, so that the same item acts as bottom sheet, top sheet, and pillow cover. Of course, that can be more of a challenge with the long Spanish pillows.

I suspect the 'turnover' can be used for whatever suits your purpose.

 

[C clearly]

My silk sleeping bag liner is 2 m long, and I am only about 160 cm. I have sewn up the side seam and added a drawstring to the top. The fabric is so light weight that I can breathe through it. Yes, it does mean that I must crawl in and out of the top of the liner.

If I am feeling paranoid about bedbugs, I can close the top with the drawstring, and twist it around to make access difficult for bedbugs. I sleep fully enclosed, with my down blanket inside the liner too.

My back pack spends the night in a bed bug proof bag, and the next morning I put all my sleeping materials into that bag (after inspecting it). If I find itchy spots during the day, I know that I should heat-treat my sleeping materials before unpacking them in the next albergue.

This approach is not fool-proof, but it reduces the risk of bedbug problems.

 

[Esg]

Thanks to all of you. It was not easy to find an image of the 'youth hostel liners' exactly, but I have the concept. The idea is to use the pillow bag as a head cover as needed, very creative. I will take this into account when deciding on a liner. Regarding treating the other gear, yes, sleeping bag, backpack, shoes, all these will be treated before joining the camino.
Hi C clearly, I am assuming the bed bug proof bag for your backpack is a black plastic bag? This sounds right, and yes, I understand that there is no "ultimate" solution but I want to use the resources and info that you guys kindly have provided. Thanks again!

 

[C clearly]

I am assuming the bed bug proof bag for your backpack is a black plastic bag?

No, but that would work, but be harder to inspect in the morning. I have used a large roll top dry bag ("pack liner") in the past. Now I have an extra long bag made from a fine mesh, that I twist into a knot at the top. No guarantees, but I figure it might help.