- Time of past OR future Camino
- Many, various, and continuing.
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Who gets to decide what the true spirit of the Camino is?That certainly cannot be in the true spirit of the Camino.
I really cannot stand the judgmentalness of deciding who is a pilgrim and who is not. It always just so happens that the person believes themself to be a pilgrim and others who choose to do things differently are mere tourists. Why the need to label people? Does it make them feel superior? That certainly cannot be in the true spirit of the Camino.
And yes, I realize am judging those who judge.
And if you go right after Yom Kippur, you will already have done many of the most difficult preparatory steps.I am Jewish and not a religious person. I see my pilgrimage as more along a spiritual path, but I found the passage that starts this thread to be beautiful and helpful in terms of guiding your own intent, not necessarily judging someone else's path.
You might want to peruse the website and review some of his writings.I have no idea who this chap is, but of course he is entitled to his viewpoint but it is not more valid than anyone else’s, and I hope he feels the same way! Anyway I’m am defo not a pilgrom and definately a hiker, but respect all folks equally!
Well said, Bradypus….Agree, absolutely and with your later comment.Who gets to decide what the true spirit of the Camino is?
I have no idea who this chap is, but of course he is entitled to his viewpoint but it is not more valid than anyone else’s, and I hope he feels the same way!
Hi @AnneO, this forum has already seen many discussions about who is a pilgrim and who is a tourist, who is a real pilgrim or an authentic pilgrim or a true pilgrim ...I really cannot stand the judgmentalness of deciding who is a pilgrim and who is not.
I don't see any conflict with what Father Rohr said and what you have said. Of course, it is still a pilgrimage. Is that not what Rohr said also - the exterior prayer is always calling us to the interior prayer?Many years ago, when we were both young. I had the privledge of making a weeks preached retreat with Richard Rohr…just a few years after his Ordination. He was inspiring then, and he has been, indeed, a gift, leader and prolific spiritual writer, inspiring many after Vatican II.
I agree that “ The meaning of a pilgrimage is an interior journey. Primarily, it’s an interior journey enacted exteriorly” However, The Spirit moves as s/he wills. Perhaps someone starts the journey just interested in the exterior journey. Can not the external journey itself, the quiet, the human sharing, the beautiful nature, one experiences, call one to internal reflection and where that may lead.
I wish, we could stop defining what a pilgrim is, period. It is exclusive…
Buen CaminoI am new to this forum, and my first Camino pilgrimage starts in a month, so I apologize in advance if replying to this thread seems pretentious or otherwise out of line.
I am Jewish and not a religious person. I see my pilgrimage as more along a spiritual path, but I found the passage that starts this thread to be beautiful and helpful in terms of guiding your own intent, not necessarily judging someone else's path.
I think walking with intent can be a useful and enriching practice, and that is the meaning I take from this passage, whether I chose to complete all the "steps" or not. I have done a lot of walking to prepare for my Camino, and there are times when the external focus does bring you back to the internal focus. It seems very similar in this way to yoga, where the practice is physical but the focus is internal and it brings you to a different place, where otherwise, as my teacher reminds us, it is just physical exercise.
At the same time, in yoga (and on any other spiritual journey), it is not really important what other students in the class are doing, whether to them the practice is an emphasis on physical or spiritual, again as my teacher reminds us, "you do you". In other words, do not judge others, let the practice be only about yourself; you do not know what the other person is experiencing, and someone who starts out purely for the physical (external) may come to find the beauty of the spiritual (internal). That has been my own evolution, I did not start yoga to lead a more spiritual life or become a better person, but that has been my journey.
So - getting back to the Camino - I guess, we do not need to judge what others are doing on their Camino (that person did not prepare enough, that other person is walking as a tourist, etc.), we must walk our own Camino, let go of what others are doing, but have compassion for the suffering of others and let go of judging - and doing that over a long period (my own Camino will last for 6 weeks) can be a profound experience.
I feel that if I can wake every morning with gratitude in my heart, experience the beauty of where I am in each moment, let go of judging others, no matter how tired I feel or my feet ache, I will have accomplished what I set out to do, I will have approached the internal from the external. So I thank Rebekah for this post as a timely reminder before I leave in a month for my own Camino.
I totally agree. I had a similar experience with teenagers. It was just one of several encounters that blatantly confronted me with my own spirit of judgement. I just finished a post about how pilgrimage taught me about my judgmentalism. Thank you for your post here.Really people, despite what we want to believe about ourselves, we do all make judgements (many of them snap) and we are always comparing. It is part of human nature to do so. It is hard to walk your own walk without judging others. I remember being so angry with a group of adolescents who arrived at a bar on a hot day in Galicia and drank every single cold drink available before I arrived to get one. I was certainly judging their status as pilgrims and felt they were just a bunch of noisy, rowdy youth led on an "adventure" by teachers because I was judging them by own selfish standards and motives after having walked for 40+ days before they even started.
If you are a tourist, adventurer, pilgrim, hiker, etc. someone will have an opinion no matter how you view yourself. We don't need to argue about this. Just maintain a thick skin and do your thing and try not to let it interfere with someone else's Camino.
And how could he judge someone's motives for walking the Camino? The talk was given in 1983. Walking the Camino as we know it did not even exist in 1983!Knowing what I know about him, the last thing he would do is judge someone's motives for walking the Camino
What does this mean? Does anyone know? Is this a multi-city trip to Lourdes, Rome and Jerusalem?When we return home in three weeks or less
Well, I've been home for over a month, but all of this sounds exactly right -- and I have yet to really "finish" this last Camino in this sense. And it's not been three weeks, but total over a year of walking, and this last time more than 7½ months.When we return home in three weeks or less, if no interior journey has happened, we really haven’t made a pilgrimage. Understand? We’ve just been tourists. We’ve traveled around and said, “I saw this, and I saw that, and I bought this,” and so forth. But that’s what a tourist does, not a pilgrim. And God has called us on pilgrimage.
That is not true.Walking the Camino as we know it did not even exist in 1983!
Thanks, Rebekah, for the original post. Reminded me of a quote from Thomas Merton that I love: "The geographical pilgrimage is the symbolic acting out of the inner journey. The inner journey is the interpretation of the meaning and signs of the outer pilgrimage. You can have one without the other, but it is best to have both." BobFr. Richard Rohr OFM is an American Franciscan priest and writer on spirituality based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He was ordained to the priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church in 1970. In 2011, PBS called him "one of the most popular spirituality authors and speakers in the world".
This is taken from a talk he gave at Lourdes; reprinted online as a daily meditation at https://cac.org/daily-meditations/pilgrims-not-tourists-2023-03-06/
Pilgrims, Not Tourists
We continue sharing excerpts from Father Richard’s 1983 talks on pilgrimage. In this presentation in Lourdes, France, Richard offers some historical background on the practical actions that pilgrims had to take before they underwent a spiritual pilgrimage.
By the high Middle Ages, there were all kind of books written for pilgrims. These were spiritual books guiding pilgrims as to how to prepare themselves. Preparation was required before they went on pilgrimage.
First of all, you had to make amends with everyone you had ever wronged. Also, if you went on pilgrimage holding any kind of unforgiveness, it could not be a good pilgrimage. You couldn’t leave your town until you’d forgiven everyone who’d ever wronged you. Certainly, this is an attitude that we can pray for at the beginning of any pilgrimage: that God would keep our hearts open and loving, because a pilgrimage can’t just be a tourist trip. The meaning of a pilgrimage is an interior journey. Primarily, it’s an interior journey enacted exteriorly.
Richard shares his hope that his fellow pilgrims embark upon such an interior journey:
When we return home in three weeks or less, if no interior journey has happened, we really haven’t made a pilgrimage. Understand? We’ve just been tourists. We’ve traveled around and said, “I saw this, and I saw that, and I bought this,” and so forth. But that’s what a tourist does, not a pilgrim. And God has called us on pilgrimage.
Secondly, and a practical, interesting thing, is that if they were going to go on pilgrimage, pilgrims had first to ask permission of their wife, husband, and family. The idea was that they had to leave everything in right relationship at home. If they had any material debts, they also had to pay those before they left. They couldn’t go on pilgrimage until their spiritual and physical debts were paid, and they had permission from all the right people.
Next, they had to go to confession before leaving. Sometime in the course of a pilgrimage, celebrating some kind of reconciliation was deemed very appropriate. Again, there’s that cleansing, that letting go. Perhaps those of us who’ve already been down to the Grotto [1] have seen the basin of water on the far end with the words that Mary spoke to Bernadette. It states, “Go wash your face and cleanse your soul.” What a symbol of reconciliation! It’s a prayer. Above all else, pilgrimage is praying with your body, and it’s praying with your feet. It’s an exterior prayer, and the exterior prayer keeps calling you into the interior prayer.
[1] The Grotto of Massabielle is the place where the Virgin Mary is said to have appeared to Bernadette Soubirous in 1858.
Adapted from Richard Rohr, On Pilgrimage: Lourdes, Holy Land, Assisi, Rome (Cincinnati, OH: Franciscan Media, 2014), CD.
I have included this quote in a memoir I wrote. I resonate with it. For me, it has been both. I also know many people who have never gone on a walking pilgrimage who, nevertheless, have been on conscious pilgrimage in their lives--probably more profoundly than my own.Thanks, Rebekah, for the original post. Reminded me of a quote from Thomas Merton that I love: "The geographical pilgrimage is the symbolic acting out of the inner journey. The inner journey is the interpretation of the meaning and signs of the outer pilgrimage. You can have one without the other, but it is best to have both." Bob
I know I should have typed it in bold: Walking the Camino as we know it did not even exist in 1983.That is not true. It has existed for centuries.
I really cannot stand the judgmentalness of deciding who is a pilgrim and who is not. It always just so happens that the person believes themself to be a pilgrim and others who choose to do things differently are mere tourists. Why the need to label people? Does it make them feel superior? That certainly cannot be in the true spirit of the Camino.
And yes, I realize am judging those who judge.
I don't think that he addressed people who walked for three weeks. Rather, it is people who travelled for three weeks on a pilgrimage and to pilgrimage sites (USA, France, Italy, Israel, USA). Forget about the walking element which is a big factor for Caminos but not important in relation to the text."When we return home in three weeks or less, if no interior journey has happened, we really haven’t made a pilgrimage. Understand? We’ve just been tourists."
Here I would argue though, that one cannot walk for weeks without automatically being on an interior journey as well.
Ok, maybe I interpreted it in the wrong context, as a pilgrimage other than by walking a large part of it is so outside of my personal considerations. But you are right!I don't think that he addressed people who walked for three weeks. Rather, it is people who travelled for three weeks on a pilgrimage and to pilgrimage sites (USA, France, Italy, Israel, USA). Forget about the walking element which is a big factor for Caminos but not important in relation to the text.
Personal experience with one pilgrimage that was a bus tour of many "sacred sites/shrines"... never again. By day three many of us were referring to it as a forced march that was uncompromising regarding personal preferences for lingering at some places and abandoning others post-haste. Discovered later that several of my close friends loved it... Experience helped me see that walking "my own way" was going to have to be how it gets done. Still great friends with most of that group, but only a couple of them have ventured onto the slower ways of pilgrimage. So be it.Ok, maybe I interpreted it in the wrong context, as a pilgrimage other than by walking a large part of it is so outside of my personal considerations. But you are right!
I think the headline is reflecting this part of the article and Rohr's words:I read Rohr’s reflection yesterday and think the headline is misleading. He writes about the interior of a pilgrimage and does not make comparisons with tourists.
...because a pilgrimage can’t just be a tourist trip. The meaning of a pilgrimage is an interior journey. Primarily, it’s an interior journey enacted exteriorly.
Richard shares his hope that his fellow pilgrims embark upon such an interior journey:
When we return home in three weeks or less, if no interior journey has happened, we really haven’t made a pilgrimage. Understand? We’ve just been tourists. We’ve traveled around and said, “I saw this, and I saw that, and I bought this,” and so forth. But that’s what a tourist does, not a pilgrim. And God has called us on pilgrimage.
Nah ... no stones, just yellow arrowsGo ahead and fling arrows at me (and cast a few stones) but I can definitely say I have observed people who are walking the Camino who are 100% tourist.
I've heard that before and have always wondered how does walking the Camino teach someone to be less judgemental?One of the things my Caminos have taught me is to be less judgmental a lesson I hold dear !
I didn't find any of the reactions to really be knee jerking. No comments were overly dramatic. Just differing opinions.The article needs to be taken on context of time and place. The knee-jerk reaction of some posters here (who are neither taking that into account nor reading the link in the OP) is predictable, though. Anything to have a good argument about pilgrims versus tourists. There are people on the camino who are 100% pilgrims. There are people who are 100% tourists. And there are the majority of us who are somewhere in between those extremes.
Where on that continuum we happen to fall is a moving target - changing as we move along the camino and even through a single day. The absolute determinism of pigeonholing ourselves or someone else as a pilgrim or not misses a much more subltle reality.
I made some judgments that were wrong and was lucky enough to have them pionted out .I also took the time to talk to the persons involved and learnt some home truths. I suppose on the Camino you are there for a long and intense time so it seems easier to learn from your experiences . Anyway its how it worked for me !I've heard that before and have always wondered how does walking the Camino teach someone to be less judgemental?
It's a serious question because personally I don't see a correlation between the two.
If you listen to other's stories it's pretty clear that your own judgy ideas about them are often pure fiction, made up out of air. It only takes a few epic mistaken impressions to create a natural restaint in following those stories. Because..I've heard that before and have always wondered how does walking the Camino teach someone to be less judgemental?
It's a serious question because personally I don't see a correlation between the two.
I have met pilgrims who did their Caminos in the 1950s, and many of my own experiences, especially in more distant parts of these Ways of Saint James, were very similar indeed to what they experienced themselves.I know I should have typed it in bold: Walking the Camino as we know it did not even exist in 1983.
They say a picture paints a thousand words;this is a picture in words you need no more!Thanks, Rebekah, for the original post. Reminded me of a quote from Thomas Merton that I love: "The geographical pilgrimage is the symbolic acting out of the inner journey. The inner journey is the interpretation of the meaning and signs of the outer pilgrimage. You can have one without the other, but it is best to have both." Bob
That's actually not quite true, given that this particular Pilgrimage accepts as a pilgrim anyone going to make a visit "ad limina" of the tomb of the Apostle with "religious" and/or "spiritual" purpose. Including if pilgrims might have such intent or close enough, but declare differently for some reason.The Camino Santiago is a pilgrimage to the shrine of a catholic saint. Hence strictly speaking, only those of Christian faith and only if they follow the intent of a catholic pilgrimage are pilgrims in the sense of this pilgrimage route.
Most Portuguese who walk to Fátima do so in a manner very like those of the mediaeval pilgrims.To me the most fascinating part of the article is all of the preparation needed. I imagine that if I were required to do all of the preparations, and amends-making of a pilgrim in the Middle Ages, then I would not really have to go on pilgrimage at all because by that point the pilgrimage would be a vacation from all of the hard work.
I've heard that before and have always wondered how does walking the Camino teach someone to be less judgemental?
It's a serious question because personally I don't see a correlation between the two.
To be blunt: I don't quite get why there could be a need to discuss this comment at length.I know I should have typed it in bold: Walking the Camino as we know it did not even exist in 1983.
Go ahead and fling arrows at me (and cast a few stones) but I can definitely say I have observed people who are walking the Camino who are 100% tourist.
FWIW, I think experience (I.e. aging)generally teaches you to be less judgmental, as you often become less sure of yourself. However my wife says I became a kinder person after my first CF. But….
For me, the act of walking is the first component of learning. I walked without a daily goal, there was nowhere that I needed to be that day and so after an initial period each day of getting myself up and going my mind was free to wander. Inevitably, for me, my mind went over prior conversations and often I saw how I had acted righteously and had judged others.I've heard that before and have always wondered how does walking the Camino teach someone to be less judgemental?
I guess for me before I ever walked the Camino I had done all the things one does when one walks the Camino. I had already lived in a communal environment. I had already put many kilometers on my feet while wearing a backpack. I had already worked with and lived with people of different backgrounds, cultures, preferences, socioeconomic levels and I myself was raised in what would I suppose be called lower middle class. To me walking the Camino was an unexplainable spiritual/religious calling of sorts I still can't explain. I also liked the sort of adventure-travel aspect of it of course. Who wouldn't? I never walked it to find myself or mull over an impending divorce, career change or any other "find myself" category, and afterwards never thought wow, that taught me to be non-judgemental. I didn't see anyone doing anything on the Camino to be judgemental about. Critical about? Sure. I make no apologies about calling out the idiots who trash the Camino with litter and graffiti. Also the immature and selfish who do rude things at albergues. They damage all pilgrims when they do this.I have certainly found it to be the case. I am a lot more tolerant and less judgemental now.
I think it comes from meeting so many people, from so many cultures, backgrounds and situations that we might in the normal course of events not meet. And we meet them on a 'level playing field'. In that we are all just Pilgrims. It's not about where you live, what your drive, what your job is. In my experience these topics never come up and are of no interest to anyone.
So with all of that, we are engaging with a very broad cross section of people. All with different perspectives and views on life. And different life experiences and situations. Mix that with the sense of community and support amongst Pilgrims, and you have in my view a unique cocktail.
It provides an environment where we are far more interested in our fellow travellers. Why they are walking, their stories, and the 'inner person' rather than the outer shell that we might normally take more notice of in daily life back home.
The result? We become more interested in our fellow Pilgrims, and tend not to 'write them off' too quickly based on how they look, act, dress or what they say.......
And often, we discover amazing people, that in the normal course of events we would never engage with.
So Yes. That cocktail 'mix' has taught me to be less judgemental and more tolerant.
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I don't agree with this line of analysis. If I take the second point first, the Catholic Diocese at Santiago has defined the requirements for receiving the Compostela, and it is clearly an inclusive statement that allows others of different Christian practices and other religions to get that. More, St James is a Christian saint, and even were the Catholic Diocese to narrowly define who could receive the Compostela, this wouldn't prevent other Christians from wanting to undertake a pilgrimage to his tomb, nor would it prevent others from different religions wanting to honour a significant figure, even if not one of their own faith.The Camino Santiago is a pilgrimage to the shrine of a catholic saint. Hence strictly speaking, only those of Christian faith and only if they follow the intent of a catholic pilgrimage are pilgrims in the sense of this pilgrimage route. It is the right of the Roman Catholic Church to define what a pilgrim on one of their routes of pilgrimage actually is. I myself would probably fail the requirements of this stricter definition – but I feel neither sad nor offended.
You are certainly right as in I totally forgot about the Compostela and the requirements to get it. If you take that as a definition of pilgrimage, then you got a point here ...I don't agree with this line of analysis. If I take the second point first, the Catholic Diocese at Santiago has defined the requirements for receiving the Compostela, and it is clearly an inclusive statement that allows others of different Christian practices and other religions to get that. More, St James is a Christian saint, and even were the Catholic Diocese to narrowly define who could receive the Compostela, this wouldn't prevent other Christians from wanting to undertake a pilgrimage to his tomb, nor would it prevent others from different religions wanting to honour a significant figure, even if not one of their own faith.
In my view, how the Catholic Diocese of Santiago might define the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is only relevant inasmuch as it governs who might receive a Compostela. It is irrelevant for other things because it says nothing about the motivation of the individuals who are walking to St James' tomb and about whether they are pilgrims.
Indeed, only made worse by assuming that others in the conversation might have anything like the same understanding of terms, ie of the semantics, when really we only share syntax.Well, we could at least all agree that this is also a discussion about definitions. And as definitions are man-made and arbitrary – meaning you cannot deduct them by logic from anything – they are always a good starting point for discussions without end and without a final and definite conclusion
Motivation, intention. These are the keys. And they don't necessarily have to be focused on St James or even Christianity, unless your focus is on St James and Christianity.I don't agree with this line of analysis. If I take the second point first, the Catholic Diocese at Santiago has defined the requirements for receiving the Compostela, and it is clearly an inclusive statement that allows others of different Christian practices and other religions to get that. More, St James is a Christian saint, and even were the Catholic Diocese to narrowly define who could receive the Compostela, this wouldn't prevent other Christians from wanting to undertake a pilgrimage to his tomb, nor would it prevent others from different religions wanting to honour a significant figure, even if not one of their own faith.
In my view, how the Catholic Diocese of Santiago might define the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is only relevant inasmuch as it governs who might receive a Compostela. It is irrelevant for other things because it says nothing about the motivation of the individuals who are walking to St James' tomb and about whether they are pilgrims.
There was a minor difference between the "non-religious" in 2009 and 2018, but I wouldn't call the sixfold growth between the 1.5% "cultural" in 1989 and the over 9% in 2009 insignificant. Neither would I so label the drop in purely religious from over 80% to just over 40%. There is certainly continuity in the experience from the 1980s to the 2000s. But there are also differences. How could there not be, with a growth from around 5000 compostelas in the year of my first Camino to over 400,000 given out last year if I remember correctly?Doesn't go back as far as 1983, but an 8% increase in non-religious motivations isn't a "fundamental" difference.
And it's worth remembering that modern touristification of the Francès in particular began in 1965, in the attempt by the Spanish Government of the time to promote the Camino as a form of tourism.
So it's only in the period of neglect of the pilgrimage, between the mid to late 18th Century or so and the 1950s to 1960s that the contemporary Camino can be said to be "fundamentally" different to.
OED "fundamental" -- 2.A.2 Of or pertaining to the foundation or ground-work, going to the root of the matter.
The varying incidentals attached to the Ways of Saint James are not fundamentals -- although of course, in some particulars the differences over the course of History are huge.
Not sure why the fuss about debating comments posted in what is partially a discussion forum.
FWIW, the source of the pie charts is Who is interested in Developing the Way of Saint James? The Pilgrimage from Faith to Tourism, an article that can be read and downloaded on researchgate.net. The abstract starts with: The Way of St. James in Spain is the main European pilgrimage route. Currently, it is a cultural, tourist, monumental, spiritual, and sports route.There was a minor difference between the "non-religious" in 2009 and 2018, but I wouldn't call the sixfold growth between the 1.5% "cultural" in 1989 and the over 9% in 2009 insignificant. Neither would I so label the drop in purely religious from over 80% to usjust over 40%. There is certainly continuity in the experience from the 1980s to the 2000s. But there are also differences.
Oh, and how could I forget about this because this is really a good one: Before they had the current online questionnaire, pilgrims filled out a paper form at the Oficina del Peregrino (see copy below). The three options for an individual's reason for the pilgrimage on this paper form were: religious; spiritual; sports or tourism. How they converted these three options into the three categories religious; religious and other; non-religious that they used in their published statistics is anyone's guess. See also the post of a volunteer at the Oficina with a background in statistics in this context. Quite useful to be aware of this when you want to discuss percentages and motivations of Camino pilgrim walkers and how representative or meaningful these data and categories actually are.When the options that you are given for your motivations are religious; religious and other; other (only one choice possible)
Nor would I, and so I didn't.There was a minor difference between the "non-religious" in 2009 and 2018, but I wouldn't call the sixfold growth between the 1.5% "cultural" in 1989 and the over 9% in 2009 insignificant.
Pilgrims frequently tick more than one of those boxes.Oh, and how could I forget about this because this is really a good one: Before they had the current online questionnaire, pilgrims filled out a paper form at the Oficina del Peregrino (see copy below). The three options for an individual's reason for the pilgrimage on this paper form were: religious; spiritual; sports or tourism. How they converted these three options into the three categories religious; religious and other; non-religious that they used in their published statistics is anyone's guess.
Only one option ends up in the Oficina’s computer and in their statistics.Pilgrims frequently tick more than one of those boxes.
Hear, hear! I nominate this post as a comment that should be made compulsory reading before any "pilgrim vs tourist" discussionThis thread started with a classic example of that, comparing pilgrims and tourists, and attempting to make some distinction between these as separate classes of travellers. I have suggested before that this might be a flawed notion, and that we are all travellers, most of us are tourists and only then might we also be pilgrims.
Most reject this notion because we have loaded the word 'tourist' with so much emotional luggage that it is almost always seen as a pejorative label to attach to anyone. That is so unnecessary, but hardly surprizing when we want to attribute to ourselves positive images of our behaviour and beneficial impact on the places to which we travel.
However, if we take the time to be dispassionate about this, and ask for the essence of 'What is a tourist?', I suggest we will then find ourselves challenged to consider ourselves as tourists. Not travellers participating in some frenzied mass tourism activity in large, noisy groups simply for pleasure or recreation, but people who have travelled away from our homes for some religious, spiritual or cultural experience that participating in pilgrimage offers us.
The Camino Santiago is a pilgrimage to the shrine of a catholic saint.
Readers may have panicked at the first sight of this “holy hand grenade” but I feel that, altogether and all together, we managed to defuse it quite nicely, didn’t we?These threads are like a holy hand grenade, someone throws it in and waits for the resulting fallout, religious versus spiritual, real pilgrim vs tourist, they never end well. We used to close them once.
And, I wrote :Only one option ends up in the Oficina’s computer and in their statistics.
Looks like it's heading that way.These threads are like a holy hand grenade, someone throws it in and waits for the resulting fallout, religious versus spiritual, real pilgrim vs tourist, they never end well. We used to close them once.
Maybe so but it still brings all the old prejucices out of the long grass.Readers may have panicked at the first sight of this “holy hand grenade” but I feel that, altogether and all together, we managed to defuse it quite nicely, didn’t we?
I can't recall the Kirk making any changes on the subject 25 years ago. The General Assembly finally got around to officially approving of the idea of pilgrimage in summer 2017!The Protestant Church of Scotland banned pilgrimages until about 25 years ago.
The Lutheran Churches in Germany have also embraced the concept of going on pilgrimage as "praying with your feet". Note that this expression is also used by Richard Rohr in the quote in the first post where he says: "Above all else, pilgrimage is praying with your body, and it’s praying with your feet."I can't recall the Kirk making any changes on the subject 25 years ago. The General Assembly finally got around to officially approving of the idea of pilgrimage in summer 2017!
I cannot see how you reach this conclusion. @Rebekah Scott shared a reflection without any further comment about her position on that. Even if those of us who have followed her work over a number of years might infer that she has concerns about how the camino has moved away from the aspirations of those who worked so hard to re-establish the Camino de Santiago, discussing the content of the reflection is not an attack on her. More, we might infer she agrees with the underlying thrust of the reflection otherwise she wouldn't have shared it, but that doesn't mean that testing whether we share a common semantic understanding of the reflection is to attack anyone.That it's an implicit attack against Rebekah just makes it worse.
The Camino, a Pilgrim, and the Pilgrimage are not some "common semantic".a common semantic understanding
What attack? Like Doug I honestly don't see it.That it's an implicit attack against Rebekah just makes it worse.
Of course. Absolutely.every Pilgrim's Camino is both precious and beautiful. Regardless anybody else's personal a priori or preconception or prejudice.
Problems arise when people claim to have authority where they have none and when people claim superiority of use and exclusivity where there is inclusiveness - or when they don't do so but are misunderstood. And that inclusiveness on Caminos won't go away any time soon, and it's a good thing. IMHO.
Plus ça change indeed.I particularly loved the note from John Adams' diary, recording the night in 1976 when he and Benjamin Franklin shared a bed. It seems the two spent the night bickering about whether to have the window open or closed.
Couldn’t agree more!I don't agree with this line of analysis. If I take the second point first, the Catholic Diocese at Santiago has defined the requirements for receiving the Compostela, and it is clearly an inclusive statement that allows others of different Christian practices and other religions to get that. More, St James is a Christian saint, and even were the Catholic Diocese to narrowly define who could receive the Compostela, this wouldn't prevent other Christians from wanting to undertake a pilgrimage to his tomb, nor would it prevent others from different religions wanting to honour a significant figure, even if not one of their own faith.
In my view, how the Catholic Diocese of Santiago might define the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is only relevant inasmuch as it governs who might receive a Compostela. It is irrelevant for other things because it says nothing about the motivation of the individuals who are walking to St James' tomb and about whether they are pilgrims.
Yes, this is what I really like about this forum. There seems to be an unusually high percentage of grown up sensible and respectful people on here! Not like the the rest of the internet, which often smells of sewage and once you play with it it sticks to your clothes and you take the smell home with you ;-)I posted a reply early Monday morning on this thread, and as a new member have read the ensuing discussion with curiosity. I have been impressed with what also seems to me to be a respectful discussion of differences of opinions on many of the issues -
This.It's relatively easy to feel spiritual on the mat, but can you carry that into your daily life?
A note first, merely for info: I try not to refer to @forum-members who do not participate in the thread. Forum members used to get an alert when their forum name is mentioned in a post but this function no longer works.What attack? Like Doug I honestly don't see it. Anyway, Reb's a big girl, more capable of defending herself than most people I know. If she feels attacked she will say so.
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